People were saying Iron Fist's casting was a catch-22. If you want to avoid the "white savior" trope and having the first Asian hero in the MCU have abilities that are clearly "Asian" in origin then why not throw a curve ball and make Danny a completely unrelated ethnicity?
I could totally see the character be a black dude.
Well, then it'd simply be 'black savior' then, right?
I mean, either people are upset about the 'Outside savior' trope downplaying the originators of whatever culture the outsider comes in to save/protect (which is a common story theme, whitey or not and as far as I understand the entire point of this character's story) which is kinda dumb, but sorta understandable, or they're upset SPECIFICALLY about the character being white.
And that'd be kinda racist, wouldn't it?
That said, I think Iron Fist and Luke Cage's relationship is more impactful if Danny is white and Luke is black. Historically speaking, their interracial friendship was pretty important to comics.
I dunno, we could make Luke Cage white and do the full flip around while maintaining the interesting interracial dynamic. Think the internet would go for that?
So in short: instead of casting an Asian actor for one of the few Asian Marvel heroes, they got a white actor?
Yeah, I agree; that's dumb.
Come on people, it's not complicated. Minorities are pretty underrepresented in our cultural expressions. This is just making that worse. That's not good because it skews public perception of minorities. We live in a very plural society, but the media we consume does not adequately reflect that. We miss valuable viewpoints like that, viewpoints that fuel understanding and dialogue between demographic groups.
Decisions like this undermine that, even if they're probably not consciously racist.
I feel like the only one more concerned that the guy playing Iron Fist should be an actual talented martial artist and that should take precedence over any trivial concerns over race.
Eh, honestly, given how often stunt doubles are used (and in fact, this is their entire function for having a job), I'm much more concerned with them finding an actor who can act. We've all seen movies where they put emphasis on finding a lead actor who could do their own martial arts work, and they very rarely turn out good. Some prime examples off the top of my head
The Last Airbender: The kid could do some good martial arts, but he couldn't act to, well to save what was a guaranteed homerun of a movie franchise.
The Last Dragon: Now, this movie is bad, but it's So Bad It's Awesome. And the main actor was picked from a local martial arts studio, because he had the look, and the moves, but what he didn't have, was a single bit of acting skill
Let the actors act, let the stunt doubles do the stunt stuff, it's what they've trained long and hard to do.
People were saying Iron Fist's casting was a catch-22. If you want to avoid the "white savior" trope and having the first Asian hero in the MCU have abilities that are clearly "Asian" in origin then why not throw a curve ball and make Danny a completely unrelated ethnicity?
I could totally see the character be a black dude.
Well, then it'd simply be 'black savior' then, right?
I mean, either people are upset about the 'Outside savior' trope downplaying the originators of whatever culture the outsider comes in to save/protect (which is a common story theme, whitey or not and as far as I understand the entire point of this character's story) which is kinda dumb, but sorta understandable, or they're upset SPECIFICALLY about the character being white.
The White Savoir trope is a fairly well documented trope (most prominent in film), so I don't think it really extends to other ethnicities. I could see source material purists getting upset in the same way they would if Danny were made Asian, but I kind of doubt the people hoping he would be Asian would be all too miffed. To answer you bluntly, yes, people are upset specifically because he is white.
I can certainly understand disappointment (I was kind of hoping for it too), but anyone calling out "racism" because they they picked a white dude to portray a white character is definitely stepping over the line. The Mandarin was changed because he plays off of historically racist stereotypes and tropes. While Iron Fist may fall under an obnoxious trope, outside of his origin there isn't really much to wince at.
Depends on how you mean "Asian." Iron Fist is Danny Rand, a white boy with blonde hair and blue eyes who...actually, I don't know what his origin story is these days, but it involved him getting lost in mountains and finding a magic Asian society and learning their kung fu and being better at it than people who were born to it. So ethnically and by birth he's a white American, but his powers come from Asian legends and mythology.
I can't think of a compelling reason the character has to be white, though. Is there even an Asian superhero in the MCU? There are two characters on Marvel's Agents of SHIELD, and that doctor who I think probably died off-screen in Marvel's the Avengers: Age of Ultron, but I wouldn't call any of them superheroes.
Is that so, eh? I read about it a little more, and man, I gotta say; that's precarious concept for a superhero. I'm not surprised minorities would want an Asian actor for that role.
However, that information does open it up a little. Either they play it straight and it's still as stupid as it was in the comics, or either they do something interesting with it and they subvert the whole "White Savior" vibe the Iron Fist bloke seems to have. Both I think are valid. Far Cry 3 for instance made pretty good use of subverting the "White Savior" trope, though a little clumsily.
I'll keep my eyes on this a bit, I think. But I'm glad there's no white washing going on at least.
Depends on how you mean "Asian." Iron Fist is Danny Rand, a white boy with blonde hair and blue eyes who...actually, I don't know what his origin story is these days, but it involved him getting lost in mountains and finding a magic Asian society and learning their kung fu and being better at it than people who were born to it. So ethnically and by birth he's a white American, but his powers come from Asian legends and mythology.
I can't think of a compelling reason the character has to be white, though. Is there even an Asian superhero in the MCU? There are two characters on Marvel's Agents of SHIELD, and that doctor who I think probably died off-screen in Marvel's the Avengers: Age of Ultron, but I wouldn't call any of them superheroes.
Is that so, eh? I read about it a little more, and man, I gotta say; that's precarious concept for a superhero. I'm not surprised minorities would want an Asian actor for that role.
However, that information does open it up a little. Either they play it straight and it's still as stupid as it was in the comics, or either they do something interesting with it and they subvert the whole "White Savior" vibe the Iron Fist bloke seems to have. Both I think are valid. Far Cry 3 for instance made pretty good use of subverting the "White Savior" trope, though a little clumsily.
I'll keep my eyes on this a bit, I think. But I'm glad there's no white washing going on at least.
Well Marvel is in between a frying pan and a freezer in this situation: they get accused of white washing by casting a white person and there are people who cry "White Savior" already, but it would be even more racist had they cast an asian person to play him just because he's got "asian" powers or something.
*slaps wrist* Bad Jim! Don't feed the thing I am not allowed to mention per the rules of this forum! You know better than to do that! For some beings on the internet, it's never a good time to feed them, whether it's after or before midnight! *shakes finger at you*
RealRT said:
Well Marvel is in between a frying pan and a freezer in this situation: they get accused of white washing by casting a white person and there are people who cry "White Savior" already, but it would be even more racist had they cast an asian person to play him just because he's got "asian" powers or something.
Yeah, it is a funny bit of double standard to me in a lot of ways. When people talk about how racist it is for a white person to be better at something than the native culture that does it, does imply some level of "racial ability" to the native race. I mean, in reality, it's all physical ability, and there really isn't a lot of variation in the races when it comes to physical ability. And in a way, a person of privledge, from a first world country, would likely have a better physical health than someone from a lesser developed region. And I know in stories we like to present these isolated monastic temples as idyllic, but what they really are is isolated from any real healthcare, and probably living hand to mouth without much in the way of a well rounded diet. So yeah, some rich white guy, at the peak of his health, supported by a health care system and culture that gives him every opportunity to have the best physical advantages, would probably excel quite well at learning some martial arts.
Now yeah, the mystic side of things tosses this theory out the window to some degree, but it still goes back to "if there is some issue with a white guy being really good at some other culture's ways, and this is somehow considered insulting, then it implies that there is somehow something superior about the other race." Either anyone can be good at these abilities, because they aren't a racial ability, unique to Asians (which, given how universal martial arts has become, it's pretty obviously not a racial trait), or you are saying it is a racial trait, and have thus set up a bit of racial superiority, but in the opposite direction.
I thought Far Cry 3 was one of the worst examples of it. Jason Brody is the only halfway decent fighter among the Rakyat and he surpasses them in many ways quite rapidly. That's why he's relied on to do everything by everyone. How else did they lose the entire island to the invading force while he gets it all back in the span of a week or so? Also, if you observe a fight between the Rakyat and anything else ranging from animals to humans, they always lose. The only way it subverts it is by having Jason be killed by Citra at the end, which to me just came off as her being an ungrateful psychotic asshole. This is coming from someone who enjoyed the game.
OT:
On the one hand, there are issues with diversity in movies and tv. On the other, I can't seem to find a reason that this character should be portrayed as Asian apart from the fact that he practices various martial arts from the far east. That being said, having read his background, he is a case of the Mighty Whitey trope.
So... a million-dollar, for-profit entertainment corporation has chosen to cast, in an adaptation of one of their C-list intellectual properties, an actor whose ethnic background matches that of the character he's portraying.
Yes, I can definitely see reason for tons of outrage here.
Well Marvel is in between a frying pan and a freezer in this situation: they get accused of white washing by casting a white person and there are people who cry "White Savior" already, but it would be even more racist had they cast an asian person to play him just because he's got "asian" powers or something.
I have to say, they got themselves into a bit of a pickle yes by even making Iron Fist the way he is. Considering he was conceived in the 1970's I'm not very surprised, when the kung fu hype was at its peak and giving a damn about representing minorities wasn't a thing yet.
So taking that outdated concept to the small screen in the 2010's is pretty much inherently problematic, and yeah Marvel seems to be in a bit of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. So I hope they do something creative with the character. And considering how they're keeping him white, they pretty much have to if they don't want to look incredibly archaic.
PainInTheAssInternet said:
I thought Far Cry 3 was one of the worst examples of it. Jason Brody is the only halfway decent fighter among the Rakyat and he surpasses them in many ways quite rapidly. That's why he's relied on to do everything by everyone. How else did they lose the entire island to the invading force while he gets it all back in the span of a week or so? Also, if you observe a fight between the Rakyat and anything else ranging from animals to humans, they always lose. The only way it subverts it is by having Jason be killed by Citra at the end, which to me just came off as her being an ungrateful psychotic asshole. This is coming from someone who enjoyed the game.
Him becoming as good as he was was the clumsy part, yes. Even though I liked the idea I won't say that it was executed perfectly or subtly. The subverting came from how Sitra played him into donning the savior mantle. Sitra needed a pawn and used the "White Savior" trope to her advantage to get him to do what she wanted.
People were saying Iron Fist's casting was a catch-22. If you want to avoid the "white savior" trope and having the first Asian hero in the MCU have abilities that are clearly "Asian" in origin then why not throw a curve ball and make Danny a completely unrelated ethnicity?
I could totally see the character be a black dude.
Well, then it'd simply be 'black savior' then, right?
I mean, either people are upset about the 'Outside savior' trope downplaying the originators of whatever culture the outsider comes in to save/protect (which is a common story theme, whitey or not and as far as I understand the entire point of this character's story) which is kinda dumb, but sorta understandable, or they're upset SPECIFICALLY about the character being white.
The White Savoir trope is a fairly well documented trope (most prominent in film), so I don't think it really extends to other ethnicities. I could see source material purists getting upset in the same way they would if Danny were made Asian, but I kind of doubt the people hoping he would be Asian would be all too miffed. To answer you bluntly, yes, people are upset specifically because he is white.
I can certainly understand disappointment (I was kind of hoping for it too), but anyone calling out "racism" because they they picked a white dude to portray a white character is definitely stepping over the line. The Mandarin was changed because he plays off of historically racist stereotypes and tropes. While Iron Fist may fall under an obnoxious trope, outside of his origin there isn't really much to wince at.
Well, I remember we all had the 'white savior' discussion in a different thread and I mean, a lot of people don't see it as(including me) "Hurr, dem whitey is too perfect and stealin' our cultures!' so much as 'the outsider learns this culture is awesome and gets in on it and wants to protect it'.
But whatever the interpretation on the trope itself is, it reaaaaaally feels kinda racist if the only reason to dislike/disallow something is the race involved. I mean 'A white person can't be the best at Kung-Fu! That's for asian people!' is not exactly a reasonable stance.
Either the ENTIRE concept of 'Outsider joins a culture and fights to defend it' is fine, which I hope it is because there's really nothing wrong with that idea, or it's specifically bad when the character's skin tone is white.
Generally speaking, if you have a person or character and what they're doing becomes suddenly acceptable if they were a different race, it's kinda racist.
I mean, the only exceptions I can think of would be if their race were inherently tied to the character, like Black Panther being native African. Beyond that, for any grousing about changing a character's race, if it's only problematic when it's one particular race and them magically acceptable when it's any other race - racism is in play.
It'd be like 'Oh, sure, they can cast Spiderman as white, black, asian, mexican and all that. That's fine. Just as long as they don't cast him as Middle Eastern."
Edit: For clarity, I tend to prefer they stick to the original character design, but if they have to change it, then it's generally not a big deal. I'm just really rubbed the wrong way by the whole 'white savior' complaints and 'it's acceptable as long as it's not white' thing.
Phew! For a minute there, I thought you were being serious with your summary of Jessice Jones, and was like (O_O), I think we watched 2 different shows! xD Seriously for a split second reading that, I thought you weren't joking. lol
Poe's Law. Unfortunately, I pulled those complaints from real people, remixed slightly to fit it all into one summary, but still. Real people do actually believe and complain about those things.
OT: So the source material is about a white guy who goes to the Far East and learns mystic powers?
It's more that he goes to the Far East and becomes the very best, like no-one ever was. It's more that he out-Asians the Asians, more or less.
Fappy said:
The White Savoir trope is a fairly well documented trope (most prominent in film), so I don't think it really extends to other ethnicities. I could see source material purists getting upset in the same way they would if Danny were made Asian, but I kind of doubt the people hoping he would be Asian would be all too miffed. To answer you bluntly, yes, people are upset specifically because he is white.
More specifically, the White Saviour trope is oe that dates back a looooong time and is actually rooted in imperialism, unlike the accusations that have been made by certain people about certain video games of late. The reason there isn't a "black saviour" trope is because blacks didn't spend centuries oppressing other minorities because of claims both scientific and spiritual that they were superior, and we don't have literally centuries of media to reflect this. The White Saviour generally plays out as an extension of "Oh!
You poor silly savages cannot save yourselves. Here, let us do the white thing and help you!"
I mean, sure, you can be part of an order that lasts for generations, but what you really need is a white dude to solve your problems.
Eh, honestly, given how often stunt doubles are used (and in fact, this is their entire function for having a job), I'm much more concerned with them finding an actor who can act. We've all seen movies where they put emphasis on finding a lead actor who could do their own martial arts work, and they very rarely turn out good. Some prime examples off the top of my head
The Last Airbender: The kid could do some good martial arts, but he couldn't act to, well to save what was a guaranteed homerun of a movie franchise.
The Last Dragon: Now, this movie is bad, but it's So Bad It's Awesome. And the main actor was picked from a local martial arts studio, because he had the look, and the moves, but what he didn't have, was a single bit of acting skill
Let the actors act, let the stunt doubles do the stunt stuff, it's what they've trained long and hard to do.
You'd be right for most roles, but this is Iron Fist. The embodiment of 70's Kung Fu movies. The actor needs to look the part and needs to show they "know kung fu" even if it's not them doing the actual fighting. Of course the ability to act is important, but the combat is so important and so integral to this character it has to be done correctly. Instead they hire some skinny dweeb soap star.
I feel like the only one more concerned that the guy playing Iron Fist should be an actual talented martial artist and that should take precedence over any trivial concerns over race.
Eh, honestly, given how often stunt doubles are used (and in fact, this is their entire function for having a job), I'm much more concerned with them finding an actor who can act. We've all seen movies where they put emphasis on finding a lead actor who could do their own martial arts work, and they very rarely turn out good. Some prime examples off the top of my head
The Last Airbender: The kid could do some good martial arts, but he couldn't act to, well to save what was a guaranteed homerun of a movie franchise.
The Last Dragon: Now, this movie is bad, but it's So Bad It's Awesome. And the main actor was picked from a local martial arts studio, because he had the look, and the moves, but what he didn't have, was a single bit of acting skill
Let the actors act, let the stunt doubles do the stunt stuff, it's what they've trained long and hard to do.
I think having the actor and the person doing the stunts be the same can add a lot to the feel of a movie where the "stunts" are sort of the main point, allowing the director to film the action a lot more intimate, which is especially beneficial for martial arts movies, where a lot of the action is up close. Depending on the focus of the movie, having good and convincing fight scenes is a lot more important than having super convincing moments of character epiphanies (besides, lots of stories don't require their main character to go through super-complex emotions, so in many cases, someone who can act decent enough will get away with it. In general I'd argue Charisma is a lot more important for action heroes and villains, than raw acting chops). You couldn't do a Jackie Chan movie without a guy like Jackie Chan.
That said, given Marvel's track record so far, they seem a lot more focussed on character work than excellent action scenes, so it makes sense for them to go after capital-a Actors.
Tl;dr: Don't knock my man Scott Adkins or I'll cut you!
The difficulty with racism is that it's not such a straight-up kinda thing. A large part of it comes from power imbalances and the idea of the "White Savior" was a very real thing with a very real impact for the last 400-500-ish years.
The problem with the "White Savior" culminated in the 19th century idea of the White Man's Burden [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man%27s_Burden], how colonial and 'new nations' treated native people in their attempts to 'civilize' them. For example how the white Canadian and Australian governments 'educated' their aboriginal populations, in the case of the latter until deep in the 20th century. Or how the English treated the Indians, how the Belgians treated the Congolese. That stuff has in many cases only ended very recently, and in most cases only the worst excesses of it.
It'd be foolish to believe that in a few short decades we've erased everything related to it from our culture. So what's left are more minor, insidious expressions of that zeitgeist. Iron Fist is like that. That's what makes it problematic and difficult to translate to this day and age. You're right that they can't just make him Asian and leave it at that. That'd simply make him another stereotype. But to play his character straight like they did in the 70's would be equally silly.
Marvel is definitely in a bit of a pickle here and they'll have to get creative if they want to save face.
Notice it only became a "Generally regarded as an ethnic slur" during WW2. That's it. WW2 is over. Jap is just the abbreviation. None of the controversy from back then matters, especially not in regards to simple wording that was only made controversial during wartime for the sake of it. "In the past, Jap was not considered primarily offensive; however, during and after the events of World War II, the term became derogatory.[2]" The only reason anyone would still consider it offensive is because they want something to be offended by.
I'm not doing this shit where we dissect each other's post to the letter to avoid actually arguing the point and instead picking out any discrepency's to make the other party look like a fool as much as possible.
That's fucking stupid behavior in a debate and reserved for pretentious pseudo-intellectuals.
You know what my point was but you can't contend it because it's true.
I don't need to be telepathic to know how you are because you have over two hand a half thousand fucking posts for me to determine it from.
I can't really reply to the rest your post at this point because you said nothing that wasn't mostly unrelated sarcastic shitposting.
I do contend however that most of my post was taking shots at SJWs in general and you do not fall under the usual category of such though you retain the insufferable and inflammatory snark of one, which is what set me off to begin with.
Welcome to the Escapist. I know this is your first day so I will level with you. You can express what you feel and like, your choice. Just don't be a dick about it. Because being a dick can really get you into trouble.
Wow! Somebody was really scraping the bottom of the outrage barrel. Well at least they go to be first. Same shit, different day. More people tripping over themselves to be offended. I'll stay here and make spooky sounds.
Phew! For a minute there, I thought you were being serious with your summary of Jessice Jones, and was like (O_O), I think we watched 2 different shows! xD Seriously for a split second reading that, I thought you weren't joking. lol
Poe's Law. Unfortunately, I pulled those complaints from real people, remixed slightly to fit it all into one summary, but still. Real people do actually believe and complain about those things.
Oh I got that, I was just commenting what my brain thought when I first read it. I have no doubt people have said those things, it was more shock to hear them from you, and for that split second, thought you were being serious.
Wuvlycuddles said:
Happyninja42 said:
Eh, honestly, given how often stunt doubles are used (and in fact, this is their entire function for having a job), I'm much more concerned with them finding an actor who can act. We've all seen movies where they put emphasis on finding a lead actor who could do their own martial arts work, and they very rarely turn out good. Some prime examples off the top of my head
The Last Airbender: The kid could do some good martial arts, but he couldn't act to, well to save what was a guaranteed homerun of a movie franchise.
The Last Dragon: Now, this movie is bad, but it's So Bad It's Awesome. And the main actor was picked from a local martial arts studio, because he had the look, and the moves, but what he didn't have, was a single bit of acting skill
Let the actors act, let the stunt doubles do the stunt stuff, it's what they've trained long and hard to do.
You'd be right for most roles, but this is Iron Fist. The embodiment of 70's Kung Fu movies. The actor needs to look the part and needs to show they "know kung fu" even if it's not them doing the actual fighting. Of course the ability to act is important, but the combat is so important and so integral to this character it has to be done correctly. Instead they hire some skinny dweeb soap star.
I hate to break it to you, but this version of Iron Fist, isn't going to embody 70's kung fu movies. He's going to be a 2017 character. Sorry. And I'm sorry, but I've seen a lot of the 70's kung fu movies, and yeah, most of the time the acting sucked. Like REALLY sucked. To the point where we appreciate the terrible acting of those movies. And while I enjoy a good martial arts sequence as much as the next person, I don't believe that's the only thing a show has to have, simply because the main character is a martial artist. Bruce Lee was a great martial artist, he was a mediocre actor, and the other actors in his movies were mediocre at best. I'd rather have a good set of actors for the acting, and a good set of stunt actors for the stunting.
Simonism451 said:
Happyninja42 said:
Wuvlycuddles said:
I feel like the only one more concerned that the guy playing Iron Fist should be an actual talented martial artist and that should take precedence over any trivial concerns over race.
I think having the actor and the person doing the stunts be the same can add a lot to the feel of a movie where the "stunts" are sort of the main point, allowing the director to film the action a lot more intimate, which is especially beneficial for martial arts movies, where a lot of the action is up close. Depending on the focus of the movie, having good and convincing fight scenes is a lot more important than having super convincing moments of character epiphanies (besides, lots of stories don't require their main character to go through super-complex emotions, so in many cases, someone who can act decent enough will get away with it. In general I'd argue Charisma is a lot more important for action heroes and villains, than raw acting chops). You couldn't do a Jackie Chan movie without a guy like Jackie Chan.
That said, given Marvel's track record so far, they seem a lot more focussed on character work than excellent action scenes, so it makes sense for them to go after capital-a Actors.
Tl;dr: Don't knock my man Scott Adkins or I'll cut you!
Sure, Jackie Chan movies are fun, but would you say they are "good" movies? Jackie can fight, and stunt his ass out of anything, but he isn't a great actor. I'm sorry, he's not. And if you are just wanting an "ok show, with some cool action in it", then sure, go find some crappy actor with a chiseled jawline, and smoldering eyes, that can't act for shit, but who cares, because he's hot, and looks good sweaty and shirtless, and let him martial arts his way into a mediocre show, with mediocre quality. Me personally, I want more than that. To me, fight scenes are set pieces. Like the Hallway Scene in Daredevil. It is an awesome bit of choreography, but it doesn't have as much weight to it, if we hadn't had an entire episode of the acting from Daredevil, where we learn what he cares about in life, and what he is willing to fight for, and why. If we didn't feel the amount of pain, and anguish, and exhaustion he was feeling, leading up to that climactic fight, and if the actor couldn't sell the emotional intensity of it the scene would've been far less amazing than it was. And thatrequires a good actor, who is good at acting, not fighting.
Yet another thread by an anti-PC individual (I had another word in mind but the last thing I need is another strike from the Moderators), that over-exaggerates something trivial into a big deal. I don't see outrage at this casting, I see disappointment and I can see why people would be disappointed by Iron Fist not being given a race lift.
That article you listed as "outrage" explained very calmly that making Iron Fist Asian doesn't take away from his character, if anything it enhances it by removing some of the more questionable and dated aspects of the character and giving him a better character arc.
This isn't outrage people, this is disappointment, and people have the right to be disappointed with casting choices. Just show of hands as to how many of you were disappointed when they cast matchstick woman Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman? That disappointment you felt is the same one the article writer is feeling right now. Sure the reasons are different but in my opinion, no less reasonable.
The only outrage I see here is from people who think that any criticism they don't agree with is politically driven and ultimately detrimental to society.
And now, I too am disappointed, because you are really no less easily outraged than the PC crowd you keep criticizing.
Wow! Somebody was really scraping the bottom of the outrage barrel. Well at least they go to be first. Same shit, different day. More people tripping over themselves to be offended. I'll stay here and make spooky sounds.
Did you even read the article, or are you just acting on instinct at this point? Please, read the article from start to finish without skimming any part of it and if you can somehow explain in what way is the writer of said article outraged (or offended for that matter) I swear I will PayPal you 100 pounds (or 138.86 dollars, I live in the UK).
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