Flash Game Makes Players Beat Up "Tropes vs. Women" Creator

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Moonlight Butterfly

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Mar 16, 2011
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Buretsu said:
Moonlight Butterfly said:
Kim Swift invented Portal. You know, that ridiculously amazing video game that everyone loves?
That right there just shoots your whole theory that women couldn't possibly compete in the video games industry down.
He didn't say they couldn't, he said they currently don't.

And frankly since it's been proven that 42% of gamers are women I find your implication that women who game doesn't exist kind of sexist. Especially since I have been gaming since 1984...When were you born exactly? Just wondering. ;)
And I'd like you to point out exactly where this implication existed in his post.

We know girls play video games. How can we not, the way that some of those girls scream in our faces about how they play video games and how all the lonely video game playing boys should fall all over themselves trying to please them? Opposed, of course, to girls for whom playing video games is just something they do, and neither deny or make a big deal about.

There's one question I want to see answered: What do women want from video game characters, both male and female? Answer that. Don't spend your time telling us how horrible men are, how terrible these existing characters are. Tell us just what the heck you want, the more specific the better.
That's exactly what we are doing. But then we get shouted down and told there is no problem and we don't matter.
 

SpectacularWebHead

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Jun 11, 2012
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Trilligan said:
SpectacularWebHead said:
Phasmal said:
The worst thing about this is that I'm not at all surprised.
Welcome to the internet. If you're a woman, we'll beat the crap out of you till you let us respect your opinions s'more.

Has anyone else noticed that this entire thing is basically the same as that Critical miss comic "Sexism and/or Racism". Oh misogynists, its funny when you think you're not.

Whilst I'm kind of unfamiliar with the whole Tropes vs women thing (I've heard about it, but I haven't researched it too far. Not even sure what a trope is) And I can pretty much guess that I'd agree with the basic principle, and I'm also fairly sure the way to say that "we don't believe in stereotyping women but we disagree with whoever" is not by making a game where you beat the crap out of a woman.

Logic? Logic? Where arrre yoou?
Tropes are essentially very common storytelling elements, like the the hero and the villain.

Be forewarned, those links may well devour a few hours of your life. TvTropes does that.
Yeah...I'm not gonna look at the links cause you pretty much explained it to me know and I can put the picture together...
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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Mar 16, 2011
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Buretsu said:
Moonlight Butterfly said:
Buretsu said:
Moonlight Butterfly said:
Kim Swift invented Portal. You know, that ridiculously amazing video game that everyone loves?
That right there just shoots your whole theory that women couldn't possibly compete in the video games industry down.
He didn't say they couldn't, he said they currently don't.

And frankly since it's been proven that 42% of gamers are women I find your implication that women who game doesn't exist kind of sexist. Especially since I have been gaming since 1984...When were you born exactly? Just wondering. ;)
And I'd like you to point out exactly where this implication existed in his post.

We know girls play video games. How can we not, the way that some of those girls scream in our faces about how they play video games and how all the lonely video game playing boys should fall all over themselves trying to please them? Opposed, of course, to girls for whom playing video games is just something they do, and neither deny or make a big deal about.

There's one question I want to see answered: What do women want from video game characters, both male and female? Answer that. Don't spend your time telling us how horrible men are, how terrible these existing characters are. Tell us just what the heck you want, the more specific the better.
That's exactly what we are doing. But then we get shouted down and told there is no problem and we don't matter.
You are not. You are pointing out the negatives and going "This is bad. This isn't what we want." It's like you're at a restaurant, and you look at the menu. There are 100 different types of food on the menu. You're asked what you want, and you point at 2 or 3 of them and go "Not those." That doesn't tell anybody anything.

Just pointing out the problems is an attack, and when you attack, the other side will defend. When you offer suggestions, it's an offer of aid, and the other side will be more likely to accept it. The problem isn't going to go away if you yell loud enough for someone to fix it, without offering any suggestions on how to go about fixing it.
Just because I didn't make reference to it in a single post doesn't mean I have never referred to it ever ;)

Women just want to be portrayed as heroes the same as guys that is why games like Fallout 3 and Vegas and Mass Effect are popular with women. Because the protagonist isn't some twisted sex doll that exists only to be ogled by the male audience. She's a hero and a person.
 

Treblaine

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Moonlight Butterfly said:
Treblaine said:
I'd say you have to learn more about sexualisation and objectification. Sexualising women makes them less than people which is why you can directly relate it to an increase in sexual assault. Touting nothing but a message that women are just there to be ogled and to be sexual objects for men.

The fact that men have 'perfect' bodies has NOTHING to do with how attractive they are its is power fantasy for men. There is a thread somewhere on the forum with what girls find physically attractive nearly all of the posts say 'I don't' like totally ripped or muscly guys' It's all about how a character puts themselves across. The image of Lara Croft you show as 'determined' still has her in a sexualised pose.

Please watch MovieBobs vid it will explain how you are just not getting the point and how saying men are sexualised because they have a 'perfect' bod is false equivalence.

http://moviebob.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/big-picture-gender-games.html

There is nothing wrong with a character being sexy but if that is all they are there for then it is a problem.

Oh and cover art is pretty much restricted to what they can show as it will be seen by everyone. Just saying.
You: "Sexualising women makes them less than people which is why you can directly relate it to an increase in sexual assault."

Hated Police Officer: "If you don't want to get raped, don't wear a short skirt"

Why. Why oh BLOODY WHY does a a woman being sexual make them less of a person?!?! Explain this?? This is insane, this is crazy, this boggles my mind that anyone can say such a thing. Are... are you trolling? Less of a PERSON for dressing or acting sexy. What?!? WHAAAAAAT!


*Takes a stiff drink*... *slaps own face* ... *splashes water in face*

less, less of a person... no, sorry, still sounds like the craziest thing I've heard in this whole mess. A beating up virtual woman is one thing, but saying ALL WOMEN who are sexual are "less than people". That is insane. Only and insane person would use that kind of rationale. It's like the mind of an insane rapist psychopath... what... PLEASE TELL ME WHAT possibly makes you say such a think. I have to know. Do YOU really think this, or is this just what you think others think.

If women mainly cared about personality, why is it nice fat guys get less dates? Gay guys are honest, they are straight up honest that ripped guys are sexy, to spite HOW HARD it is to get a ripped and muscle bulging body.

"There is nothing wrong with a character being sexy but if that is all they are there for then it is a problem."

By definition of the protagonist that CANNOT be the case with ALL female protagonists. If they are the protagonist then they are by definition driving the plot forward, which means by definition they are NOT being only there for being sexy.

You know what your problem is: your obsession with sex. You ignore and denigrate all achievements and prowess of any female protagonist if they are sexy.

"The image of Lara Croft you show as 'determined' still has her in a sexualised pose."

You prove my point. It doesn't matter that she is determined, because you can see her arms and legs. Stop being so sex-negative against women.

PS: Now I will go watch moviebob's review and I will comment on that in his comment section. If you can't be bothered to even give an example of one of his arguments I don't see why I should honour your with the response.
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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Mar 16, 2011
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Tenmar said:
It's always been something that bothered me... Nintendo magazine started using half naked models in their magazine in the 90's I complained so did a few others but their response was bascially 'Lol girls don't play video games'

I have had to put up with that crap for 30 odd years. In that time the only female characters that I have been able to relate to have been Lara Croft (who is arguably still massively sexualised) and Jennifer from Primal.

I was bullied and called a 'lesbian' at school for liking video games....

As for the Hitman trailer there was no reason for those women to be in those outfits other than titillation, they are sex objects and that is the problem I have with it.

Imagine you have a hobby right. You love it more than anything. It's all you do in your spare time. Yet the opinion of you out in the world in that you couldn't possibly really love your hobby because of the genitals you were born with. It's not exactly fun I can tell you.
 

Tippy

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Jul 3, 2012
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Trilligan said:
Tippy said:
Read. Consider.

That's an industry insider talking about the 'Boy's Club' and why that - and the attitude that perpetuates it - is a bad thing for gaming.
Amazing read, thank you!
That article seems to suggest that women are driven away from the gaming due to our (men) immature/childish attitude towards seeing women as nothing more than boobs+ass.

My theory was that since the overwhelming majority of game developers are male, the games themselves are obviously going to be written from a heavily male-influenced perspective. If I read that article right, it's saying that the solution to invite more women into the industry is for us males to back down first - that is, first WE need to stop portraying women as sex dolls, and THEN more women might consider getting into game development.

Blizzcon developer panel:

(and these guys don't even make any blatantly sexist games, Blizzard games portray women fairly respectfully)

My suggestion was that instead of men backing down, women should take up the responsibility of showing the other side of the picture by extensively developing and leading games on their own. The problem is, I can't think of the "polar opposite" of what a typical masculine game (boobs everywhere) would be. Men getting dominated? Pink unicorns? I have no clue.

Practically every game has been about men beating/assaulting each other, some even half-naked while doing it. But if a man assaults the wrong gender (i.e. woman) it's immediately labeled "rape" or "violence against women", and murder/genocide of males is fine as long we stay away from those touchy topics (yes I've seen Jim Sterling's video). The safest path IMO is to not include women at all in violent games, since I can't think of a single way that the presence of a woman in a violent situation WON'T get turned into a "you hate us" topic by feminists.

So if an extremely biased female developer existed, what sort of game would she create that would show men as the "sex doll"? I have no idea because I don't know of any such game. Women developers haven't even fought back yet, their presence is barely felt. They are in the extreme minority. Would such a game even well? Well, according to Moonlight Butterful 43% of gamers are women so such a game should be a smash hit!
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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Mar 16, 2011
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HigherTomorrow said:
Moonlight Butterfly said:
As for the Hitman trailer there was no reason for those women to be in those outfits other than titillation, they are sex objects and that is the problem I have with it.
Prove that statement.
Quote forma n article someone linked earlier

Think about it logically for a moment -- if you were going to assassinate someone, would you wear the tightest thing possible? Would you expose your breasts to the world, essentially creating a target for a bullet? Probably not.
Yes I'm going to assassinate a trained hitman. I think I will wear the most impractical thing possible herp derp. -.-
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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Mar 16, 2011
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Treblaine said:
Because sexy is THE ONLY thing that they are. They are never portrayed as just a person and like the victim in the short skirt that is all the hateful cop sees because he is tuned by the media to think women are nothing but tits and ass and not actually people.

I gave an example of his argument your response was to say that men must be sexualised because they have their shirts off!. >_>

HigherTomorrow said:
I'm done for tonight, but I combat your claim that Lara Croft is less of a character because, despite being a strong female heroine she is sexualized, with this picture of my favorite male hero, Solid Snake.

Yeah one example which no women find attractive, well done! I'm not even going to justify the tuxedo thing with a response. You really think a tuxedo is the same as bondage gear? :|