{
I almost called you a complete idiot for this post, but I see where you are going now. It's based on what kind of story is being told, the elements in it that would lead to how a character might dress.
So a better way to put it is not ask Lara Croft why she wears short shorts, but ask the creative team what kind of character and world are they trying to create, which will obviously influence the attire.
One problem with your line of argument is comparing a video game character to contemporary people. Yes plenty of girls show a lot of skin out in the street, and there is nothing wrong with that. But that is while walking in a city in their day to day lives. Would they wear the same thing while traversing through a jungle ruin? That is wear chinves point becomes important. Can the creative team justify their decisions. If the character is travelling in the arctic and she is wearing a bikini, then that doesn't make a whole lot of sence. You argue that women can wear what they want, which I agree with. But are these character wearing what most women would want in a specific environment, or wearing what the designers think young men want them to wear?
Too much of this argument devolves into argung specifics that detract from the main point. It isn't that female characters dress a certain way. It is do these characters have a real personality, or are they put there only for visual stimulation for boys. If most female characters do not have a real personality then that is sexist. If they do have real personalities then it is not. Maybe we should go through a large number of games and keep tally of women with depth and women who are window dressing. Or you know, get someone else to do it for us.
Of course even this is narrowing into specifics more than we should. The problem isn't video games. The problem is the general attitude that the average person has, and this is reflected in all media.
I don't think Anita is the best at these videos (but I applaud her for trying to open peoples eyes at least). If you don't like her pervious videos then watch a movie called Miss Representation. A great documentary that looks at media as a whole and how it influences attitudes. It even shows how boys are raised to be closed off from their emotions and it makes it very hard to treat women with respect (I am not doing this explanation justice). If anyone reading this feels they are not sexist, or mor importantly that sexism doesn't exist, and doesn't like Anita's videos then I challange you to watch Miss Representation.[/quote]
I've been camping and seen women in short shorts. And when rock climbing. I was taught to abseil buy a guy who was wearing uber short short I only remember because I looked up and saw as he was abseiling down his shorts had ridden up and his white buttcheek was exposed. He didn't see any problem with wearing short short and I'd only ever have remembered this guy wearing them from the sudden white buttock sight.
So Lara Croft wearing short shorts... Why is that so hard to believe? What is interrupting your suspension of disbelief? What is so inconceivable about a woman or anyone wearing short shorts especially in very hot climates? In Lara's home she wears long baggy trousers.
"If the character is travelling in the arctic and she is wearing a bikini"
But she never did that. I don't think any character has ever seriously done that. Lara went to the Arctic and Antarctic with thick full body covering clothes. She made a crash landing from a plane flying from a tropical climate to a snowy mountainous environment, she found a coat and donned it. It's all totally in line with what a character like Lara Croft might WANT TO WEAR. Without JUST the contrivance of what suits boys.
How about you actually play through the Tomb Raider series and you'll see Lara Croft is no playboy "playmate" who just acts flirtatious, she is never flirtatious, she has a very definite character motivation though not exactly refined for one of the first video games generations with voice acting. Any even attempt at physically encroaching on her is met with sudden violence.
I was really disappointed by the Angelina Jolie Tomb Raider films as they got the Lara Croft character so completely and utterly wrong, she seemed too much like Trinity from the Matrix at times and no where near animately harsh enough. Lara is an English rose with thorns... and a submachine gun. She's cruel and murderous, more like the anti-hero of a spaghetti western. She wasn't serene and in touch with local customs, she'd indifferent and condescending when she talks with a monk, only focusing on the next treasure.
"Maybe we should go through a large number of games and keep tally of women with depth and women who are window dressing. Or you know, get someone else to do it for us."
And what good would that achieve? Art by a quota? That's open to misuse and calamity.
Sarkeesian is totally unsuited to such an analysis as she is a sex-negative reactionary social conservative, who makes sloppy and facile arguments that only stand by to criticism by her censoring all criticism on her videos and straw0manning trolls.
I'll try to check out this "Miss Representation" when I can. But consider that if you except me to accept that boys are indoctrinated to think a certain way, also consider that girls are indoctrinated to think a certain way as well, such as to denigrate and think less of women who are openly sexual without any good reason to consider them that way.
You can see why apart from Lara Croft there are not many female protagonists. Because they don't want to have to deal with all this bullshit of every characteristic about them second guessed and people willingly refusing to suspend their disbelief and pull back the curtain and demand the writer explain why he did this for the audience rather than stop - just for a second, and consider the character in the fiction.}
You still have a problem with not seeing the forest for the trees, but at least you are arguing in the right direction. I meant to use Lara Croft as a hypothetical as the character is well known. Personally I have never done any of the activities that the character has, so I have no idea if her attire is practical. And that is the main point I am making. Does the outfit suit the character and activity/location. But even then that doesn't matter as much if she is a real personality and her decisions and actions make sense. (and yes I agree the movie was terrible. I didn't bother watching the second movie).
I think Ms Sarkeesian is over the top in her views, but there is a reason. Usually when someone is over the top in reaction it's because they have been mistreated. While she pushes to far in on direction it is because she realizes how most women are treated. Maybe instead of attacking her you can point out the flaws in her arguments. Human reaction is to push back when someone pushes us. Attacking her directly isn't going to help her see how to change her arguments, which is why all the idiots attacking her accomplish nothing (although most of them don't want this discussion, they want her to shut up and get into the kitchen).
Unfortunetly most young girls are brought up wrong just as young boys are. They don't feel they are worth enough, and unfortunetly so many things tell them this. One of the issues with dress is that the media makes it seem that girls need to dress slutty to impress boys and that is the only reason, which means their self worth is joined to how well they can impress boys. I'll totally conceed that boys grow up thinking how to impress girls. Hormones control a lot of what we do when we are young. The only problem is that most boys can still keep their own self worth, it is harder for girls to do. But this continues to improve which is why we have to continue to have these discussions. This is all discussed in Miss Representation.
""Maybe we should go through a large number of games and keep tally of women with depth and women who are window dressing. Or you know, get someone else to do it for us."
And what good would that achieve? Art by a quota? That's open to misuse and calamity.
"
Art by quota was not my point. THe question is are female characters in video games given depth and real personalites or are they complete window dressing there onyl to serve young males fantasies. I don't think you will find too many that will be hard to classify as one or the other. The point of this is to show how women are depicted in the genre overall, which is a greater reflection of how women are looked at in society.
Thanks for the professional response. It is nice to discuss issues with someone who doesn't resort to namecalling, making stuff up, or pulling in points that have no relevance to the argument.
Edit. I still have issues making the quotes work so sorry for the poor post.
I almost called you a complete idiot for this post, but I see where you are going now. It's based on what kind of story is being told, the elements in it that would lead to how a character might dress.
So a better way to put it is not ask Lara Croft why she wears short shorts, but ask the creative team what kind of character and world are they trying to create, which will obviously influence the attire.
One problem with your line of argument is comparing a video game character to contemporary people. Yes plenty of girls show a lot of skin out in the street, and there is nothing wrong with that. But that is while walking in a city in their day to day lives. Would they wear the same thing while traversing through a jungle ruin? That is wear chinves point becomes important. Can the creative team justify their decisions. If the character is travelling in the arctic and she is wearing a bikini, then that doesn't make a whole lot of sence. You argue that women can wear what they want, which I agree with. But are these character wearing what most women would want in a specific environment, or wearing what the designers think young men want them to wear?
Too much of this argument devolves into argung specifics that detract from the main point. It isn't that female characters dress a certain way. It is do these characters have a real personality, or are they put there only for visual stimulation for boys. If most female characters do not have a real personality then that is sexist. If they do have real personalities then it is not. Maybe we should go through a large number of games and keep tally of women with depth and women who are window dressing. Or you know, get someone else to do it for us.
Of course even this is narrowing into specifics more than we should. The problem isn't video games. The problem is the general attitude that the average person has, and this is reflected in all media.
I don't think Anita is the best at these videos (but I applaud her for trying to open peoples eyes at least). If you don't like her pervious videos then watch a movie called Miss Representation. A great documentary that looks at media as a whole and how it influences attitudes. It even shows how boys are raised to be closed off from their emotions and it makes it very hard to treat women with respect (I am not doing this explanation justice). If anyone reading this feels they are not sexist, or mor importantly that sexism doesn't exist, and doesn't like Anita's videos then I challange you to watch Miss Representation.[/quote]
I've been camping and seen women in short shorts. And when rock climbing. I was taught to abseil buy a guy who was wearing uber short short I only remember because I looked up and saw as he was abseiling down his shorts had ridden up and his white buttcheek was exposed. He didn't see any problem with wearing short short and I'd only ever have remembered this guy wearing them from the sudden white buttock sight.
So Lara Croft wearing short shorts... Why is that so hard to believe? What is interrupting your suspension of disbelief? What is so inconceivable about a woman or anyone wearing short shorts especially in very hot climates? In Lara's home she wears long baggy trousers.
"If the character is travelling in the arctic and she is wearing a bikini"
But she never did that. I don't think any character has ever seriously done that. Lara went to the Arctic and Antarctic with thick full body covering clothes. She made a crash landing from a plane flying from a tropical climate to a snowy mountainous environment, she found a coat and donned it. It's all totally in line with what a character like Lara Croft might WANT TO WEAR. Without JUST the contrivance of what suits boys.
How about you actually play through the Tomb Raider series and you'll see Lara Croft is no playboy "playmate" who just acts flirtatious, she is never flirtatious, she has a very definite character motivation though not exactly refined for one of the first video games generations with voice acting. Any even attempt at physically encroaching on her is met with sudden violence.
I was really disappointed by the Angelina Jolie Tomb Raider films as they got the Lara Croft character so completely and utterly wrong, she seemed too much like Trinity from the Matrix at times and no where near animately harsh enough. Lara is an English rose with thorns... and a submachine gun. She's cruel and murderous, more like the anti-hero of a spaghetti western. She wasn't serene and in touch with local customs, she'd indifferent and condescending when she talks with a monk, only focusing on the next treasure.
"Maybe we should go through a large number of games and keep tally of women with depth and women who are window dressing. Or you know, get someone else to do it for us."
And what good would that achieve? Art by a quota? That's open to misuse and calamity.
Sarkeesian is totally unsuited to such an analysis as she is a sex-negative reactionary social conservative, who makes sloppy and facile arguments that only stand by to criticism by her censoring all criticism on her videos and straw0manning trolls.
I'll try to check out this "Miss Representation" when I can. But consider that if you except me to accept that boys are indoctrinated to think a certain way, also consider that girls are indoctrinated to think a certain way as well, such as to denigrate and think less of women who are openly sexual without any good reason to consider them that way.
You can see why apart from Lara Croft there are not many female protagonists. Because they don't want to have to deal with all this bullshit of every characteristic about them second guessed and people willingly refusing to suspend their disbelief and pull back the curtain and demand the writer explain why he did this for the audience rather than stop - just for a second, and consider the character in the fiction.}
You still have a problem with not seeing the forest for the trees, but at least you are arguing in the right direction. I meant to use Lara Croft as a hypothetical as the character is well known. Personally I have never done any of the activities that the character has, so I have no idea if her attire is practical. And that is the main point I am making. Does the outfit suit the character and activity/location. But even then that doesn't matter as much if she is a real personality and her decisions and actions make sense. (and yes I agree the movie was terrible. I didn't bother watching the second movie).
I think Ms Sarkeesian is over the top in her views, but there is a reason. Usually when someone is over the top in reaction it's because they have been mistreated. While she pushes to far in on direction it is because she realizes how most women are treated. Maybe instead of attacking her you can point out the flaws in her arguments. Human reaction is to push back when someone pushes us. Attacking her directly isn't going to help her see how to change her arguments, which is why all the idiots attacking her accomplish nothing (although most of them don't want this discussion, they want her to shut up and get into the kitchen).
Unfortunetly most young girls are brought up wrong just as young boys are. They don't feel they are worth enough, and unfortunetly so many things tell them this. One of the issues with dress is that the media makes it seem that girls need to dress slutty to impress boys and that is the only reason, which means their self worth is joined to how well they can impress boys. I'll totally conceed that boys grow up thinking how to impress girls. Hormones control a lot of what we do when we are young. The only problem is that most boys can still keep their own self worth, it is harder for girls to do. But this continues to improve which is why we have to continue to have these discussions. This is all discussed in Miss Representation.
""Maybe we should go through a large number of games and keep tally of women with depth and women who are window dressing. Or you know, get someone else to do it for us."
And what good would that achieve? Art by a quota? That's open to misuse and calamity.
"
Art by quota was not my point. THe question is are female characters in video games given depth and real personalites or are they complete window dressing there onyl to serve young males fantasies. I don't think you will find too many that will be hard to classify as one or the other. The point of this is to show how women are depicted in the genre overall, which is a greater reflection of how women are looked at in society.
Thanks for the professional response. It is nice to discuss issues with someone who doesn't resort to namecalling, making stuff up, or pulling in points that have no relevance to the argument.
Edit. I still have issues making the quotes work so sorry for the poor post.
