Forget the zombie apocalypse

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Silver

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AntiThom said:
rossatdi said:
Also, taking guns out of the hands of the population radically decreases their ability to kill each other. Something Americans haven't twigged yet.
WRONG. Gun Control in areas has provennot only to INCREASE violent crimes, but even GUN crimes in general. Why? That's because criminals don't obey laws, dipshit. And taking guns away from law-abiding citizens only makes them easier targets for said criminals. It's a proven fact, wise up.
No, that's because your country has so many bloody guns everywhere that anyone who wants them can get them, even if you outlaw them.

Your country doesn't have perspective. If everyone has a gun, and everyone abiding the law throws their away then sure, gun crime is going to increase.

However, if like in many countries in Europe, you don't have a gun, and criminals don't have guns and you don't give out guns to everyone, YOU WON'T HAVE GUN CRIME because there's no guns. Seriously. If you'd stop to think for a few seconds longer, and actually examine the situation, you'd figure that out.


God, I usually don't have that bad an opinion on Americans, but when it comes to guns you behave like children. Stupid children. No bloody perspective.

No guns means that criminals don't have guns either. You don't need your bloody, precious guns. There's a reason you have one of the higher murder rates in the world.

No, I don't think gun control is going to solve your problems. Nothing short of a completely overhaul of your education system, your welfare system, your laws, your treatment of refugees and illegal aliens AND your gun laws is going to solve your problems. Keep shooting each other. Some day you might have killed off enough people that the only one's left can do something about it.


Edit: When I started writing this, there was only 1 page. Either I write really slow, or people argue more about this than they do religion.
 

Bagaloo

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Personally, I'll go with "gun control is a good thing".
Sure, the hardcore criminals will still have access to them, they always do (somehow).
But it will cut down on the deaths guns cause when in the hands of 'ordinary folk'.

No more toddlers getting ahold of a gun and blowing their brains out, that sort of thing.

Besides, like someone else already mentioned, most of the time your gun is useless because a criminal pulled a gun on you first, and that would be suicide to then reach for a gun. Or someone breaks into your house and uses your own gun against you when you disturb him.
 

000Ronald

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Does it bother anyone else that people are acting so snide and better than thou? Well, I'm sure it does, so I'm here. Yeah. Sorry.

OK, my thoughts. First off, The Constitution states that we have "The Right to Keep and Bear Arms [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Second_Amendment]" That's what it says. And that's part of what bothers me.

Let's look past the short term issues, like a slightly reduced crime rate and a sales loss for the gun lobbyists. Let's look at what it would mean to say, "This does not say you have the right to keep a gun".

Again let's look at The Constitution, and how it's worded. So far as I'm concerned, and according to most people I talk to, it works like this; the expressed right to own a gun implies the right to defend yourself from harm; they say the right to swing your fist ends where the other man's nose begins, but if someone forgets that, you have the right to fuck them up (within reason, and more than anything so they remember how far their arms are supposed to reach.) If a guy tries to mug you, you have the implied right to incapacitate him in order to preserve your well being. That's how it works. People have the right to protect themselves from harm, if only because their first instinct might very well be to protect themselves from harm. What happens if you take that away? If a guy points a gun at me in a dark alley, my first reaction is to grab his arm and break it, just like I was taught. I would hurt him so badly that he either couldn't or wouldn't be able to fight back. That's what I was taught and that's how I would react.

If you take away my right to defend myself, then what is there to stop my assalant? Even if he doesn't have a gun, what's to stop him from grabbing a butcher knife and hold me up like that? He'll get away scott free, either way; in fact, with someone like me, he may hope I defend myself, so I have to spend the rest of my life paying for his medical bills.

By taking away the ability to defend one's self, you instead increase how much crime happens (as Abako [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.80570?page=4#1055669] pointed out in a much more elequent way than I would, or will, bother to). This, so far as I see, is common sense. More inportiantly, though, where does it end? Do you outlaw martial artists, because they use their bodies as a weapon? Do you doctors so that they can't use their knowledge of anatomy to harm a person? Do you execute a decrepit old man because he was in the Vitetnam war and knows how to fight a gurella war? Where does it end? Will defining an aspect of one law change the meaning of The Constitution itself, like the decrepit old man feared?

That's not to say I belive gun deteirence=totolitarian state. We're a long way from that, and as long as there are people willing to fight, it won't happen. But if you're like me, you wonder, and indeed, I do wonder...sometimes...

My apologies; I rant. I just thought I'd throw that out there.
 

Avatar Roku

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galletea said:
I always wonder why people, who are not prepared to listen to opinions that don't concur with their own, start threads in a forum labelled "Off Topic Discussion"

I personally agree with Rossatdi, taking away your 'right' to bear arms would be a good thing. If it didn't reduce crime then it would reduce the number of deaths from crimes; as your average store robber would find it harder to get armed. Yes gangs still have guns here, but if a gang wants to shoot you, it's unlikely that you're going to get a chance to shoot first anyway, so your right to own a gun still leaves you impotent.
I was going to post a scathing post against the Topic Creater's sensationalism, but I read this post and decided it showed my views (including the Off Topic Discussion part) much more succinctly. So, QFT.
 

Avatar Roku

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The_Logician19 said:
[snipped for size]

Again let's look at The Constitution, and how it's worded. So far as I'm concerned, and according to most people I talk to, it works like this; the expressed right to own a gun implies the right to defend yourself from harm; they say the right to swing your fist ends where the other man's nose begins, but if someone forgets that, you have the right to fuck them up (within reason, and more than anything so they remember how far their arms are supposed to reach.) If a guy tries to mug you, you have the implied right to incapacitate him in order to preserve your well being. That's how it works. People have the right to protect themselves from harm, if only because their first instinct might very well be to protect themselves from harm. What happens if you take that away? If a guy points a gun at me in a dark alley, my first reaction is to grab his arm and break it, just like I was taught. I would hurt him so badly that he either couldn't or wouldn't be able to fight back. That's what I was taught and that's how I would react.

If you take away my right to defend myself, then what is there to stop my assalant? Even if he doesn't have a gun, what's to stop him from grabbing a butcher knife and hold me up like that? He'll get away scott free, either way; in fact, with someone like me, he may hope I defend myself, so I have to spend the rest of my life paying for his medical bills.

By taking away the ability to defend one's self, you instead increase how much crime happens (as Abako [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.80570?page=4#1055669] pointed out in a much more elequent way than I would, or will, bother to). This, so far as I see, is common sense. More inportiantly, though, where does it end? Do you outlaw martial artists, because they use their bodies as a weapon? Do you doctors so that they can't use their knowledge of anatomy to harm a person? Do you execute a decrepit old man because he was in the Vitetnam war and knows how to fight a gurella war? Where does it end? Will defining an aspect of one law change the meaning of The Constitution itself, like the decrepit old man feared?
Well, of course you can defend yourself in that kind of situation. Who is saying you can't? You seem to be arguing with nobody. Unless you're arguing "Slippery Slope." If you are, I'll give the same response I give any time anyone ever gives that argument: Stop sensationalizing. Not having the right to own a gun if your background check shows something shady is a hell of a lot different than outlawing every conceivable form of weapon right off the bat.
 

Johnn Johnston

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The_Logician19 said:
If you take away my right to defend myself, then what is there to stop my assalant? Even if he doesn't have a gun, what's to stop him from grabbing a butcher knife and hold me up like that? He'll get away scott free, either way; in fact, with someone like me, he may hope I defend myself, so I have to spend the rest of my life paying for his medical bills.
Putting gun controls into play doesn't mean the end of self-defence laws. By all means there should be a reasonable force clause (because a rolled-up newspaper to the face does not warrant a shiv to the neck), but I don't think that your right to defend yourself would be infringed here. Although, I have to admit, there have been an irritatingly large amount of cases where criminals sue due to your defending yourself; but keeping the 2[sup]nd[/sup] Amendment in place wouldn't lower that figure.

In short, there is no ostensible downside to imposing gun controls in the way of self-defence.
 

000Ronald

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orannis62 said:
To this guy...
Johnn Johnston said:
And this guy...
I wasn't saying that one equals the other, I was just stating an idea.

Also, to Johnston, there have been cases where I'm from where people defending themselves from assalints have been charged with assault, or some other such thing. One case that sticks out was a man who robbed a woman at knifepoint in her home, slipped on a puddle of water on his way out, and impaled himself on his knife. Due to a court case, that old woman is going to be paying for that robber's well being for the rest of his days. That just strikes me as wrong on so many levels.
 

Silver

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Logician. Yeah, you knda already got your answer. But really, there's a BIG difference between gun control and killing you for knowing martial arts.

Sort of like how it's not allowed to kill people because they don't follow your religion, but we still have freedom of religion (just don't kill anyone for it). Outlawing murder in the name of religion is NOT outlawing religion. Really. It's not. And it's the same with guns.

Personally, I'd make martial arts lesson and self defence classes a required part of schooling. Martial arts teaches not only how to fight, but also discipline, and respect and patience. Sure, you might say I help criminals learn how to fight. But I also teach people to defend themselves, using (and this is the kicker) NON (here it comes) lethal methods (wow...). Yeah. You don't have to kill to defend yourself. You don't have to have a weapon designed for that specific purpose, and put it in the hands of everyone. If both you and the person wanting to mug you instead have non-lethal ways of going about it, you'll both live, most likely. You can get away, with your wallet, your assailant can pay off his/her debt to society for his/her crime.
 

Johnn Johnston

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The_Logician19 said:
Also, to Johnston, there have been cases where I'm from where people defending themselves from assalints have been charged with assault, or some other such thing. One case that sticks out was a man who robbed a woman at knifepoint in her home, slipped on a puddle of water on his way out, and impaled himself on his knife. Due to a court case, that old woman is going to be paying for that robber's well being for the rest of his days. That just strikes me as wrong on so many levels.
Alas, things like that are happening with an increasing frequency.
 

Avatar Roku

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The_Logician19 said:
orannis62 said:
To this guy...
Johnn Johnston said:
And this guy...
I wasn't saying that one equals the other, I was just stating an idea.

Also, to Johnston, there have been cases where I'm from where people defending themselves from assalints have been charged with assault, or some other such thing. One case that sticks out was a man who robbed a woman at knifepoint in her home, slipped on a puddle of water on his way out, and impaled himself on his knife. Due to a court case, that old woman is going to be paying for that robber's well being for the rest of his days. That just strikes me as wrong on so many levels.
That certainly is wrong. You got a link? I'm curious about what kind of legal-wrangling they were able to do to pull that off.
 

Johnn Johnston

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orannis62 said:
That certainly is wrong. You got a link? I'm curious about what kind of legal-wrangling they were able to do to pull that off.
Oh, there are tons of examples like that. But, this is a discussion for another thread.
 

The-Big-D

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Gun are just stupid.

Alot of idiots and children manage to get hold of them so easily these days and like to go trigger happy killing people or just being stupid and waving them around or commiting crimes.

Alot of people die because of "mistakes", gang related violence, shootings and robberies and the lack of guns would drasticly drop the amount of death numbers recorded by gun crime.

Personally i only think the authorities such as the Police and Army should be given firearms as long as they have had the specialised training and have been certified they can use a gun properly even in a high pressure situation such as robberies and terrorist attacks.

But. People do have the right to protect themselves and in this case if an assailant or a group of people try to kill you or shoot you, in that case i tihnk you should be allowed a fire arm to defend yourself as a last resort. I mean people have gun cabnets and places to store them where they are locked securely which is good atleast there being resposible. But aswel if your going to have one it should be registered and known that you have one and should be checked regularly by an official to ensure your using it correctly. Which happens anyway. But what ever happened to proteecting ourselves with household items such as a basball bat?

We should only have guns to protect our selves but i think only authorities having them so they can do there job of protecting citizens will be more effective. There will be more of a sense of fear with armed police turning up at your door instead of a stick or tazer that can only be used at close range.

Then at least we can feel a bit safer having someone using a gun to help prevent something than have someone who is a total nut job trying to hurt people. Also i think if there are no guns people will less likely be able to commit crimes because if the police are called ot a scene and are armed they arnt exactly going to be able to resist as much without being shot.

Also as well you notice children waving them around thinking there toys and they end up having accidents. Sorry but who leaves a gun lying round for a child to find, i would never have a gun in the house if i was a child it would be irrisponsible. Then you hear about some child playing with one and then accidently blows his face off because he doesnt realise the chamber is loaded.

Just alot of mistakes and bad things happen when someone gets hold of a gun. Getting rid of them will prevent this i think and people wont have to be so worried.
 

The-Big-D

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Also to add to my arguement, toy guns shouldnt be allowed they create alot of confusion and it influencees children to think guns are a toy when actually they can kill people.

Just thaught id add that.
 

CoverYourHead

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Oh hooray, there's a bunch of pro-gun americans making the rest of us look like NRA supporters, nothing wrong with that beyond the bad reputation we're earning.

Anyway, I really do not need a gun, so take 'em if you want, just give me one when the zombies arrive.
 

Altio

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I have one comment and I'm not gonna touch this anymore after that, but guns don't kill people, stupid/irrational/law-breaking people WITH guns kill people.
 

The-Big-D

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Would be ironic if we took away guns to reduce killing and then zombies start walking the earth lol
 

Brett Alex

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Stringytank said:
The first step in any regime is disarming the population to prevent rebellion after the government takes complete control.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_control#Resisting_tyranny
You see thats pointless.

No matter how many weapons your private citizens have, your rebellion will never succeed without the majority of the army on your side.

Think about it, you have an effective, highly trained, tactically aware, organised and coordinated fighting force armed with more and better weapons than any citizen could ever hope to buy or maintain, going up against a group of disorganized, fractal, untrained weekend hunters, NRA members and self defence advocates, who picked up whatever they could get at Guns R Us.

Face it, if your government really wanted to screw you, they could, and a 9mm handgun wouldn't save you.