Women are attracted to the alpha male personality. Ideal male mates are supposed to be confident, independent, and totally in control. In fact, these personal traits make you so "powerful" that you are supposed to be a high value target to women. You need to act as though you can get any girl you want at any time because you are king shit.
With this mindset, you must not see her as a person for whom you are supposed to please, but rather she is supposed to feel as though she needs you. This means literally cutting down contact and making it a point to show that you will pursue other women if she is not willing to take you seriously. Cutting to the chase, you must stop being her "friend" first, and assume that she will feel attracted to your traits enough to where she is willing stop being your "friend" because she wants you for more than that.
The hardest thing about all of this is that you're not going to want to do anything to upset her or to make her think that you don't want her. This is the biggest mistake you can make, though. Every other guy out there who doesn't care whether they get "her" or not is immediately seen as a higher value target because they are superior to her. You, on the other hand, appear needy.
It's the basic idea that people generally want what they subconsciously know they cannot have. You make it obvious that you want them (aka, being the nice guy) and you'll be friend zoned pretty hard. The less you try, the more they want you. The biggest problem is knowing how long to appear uninterested. Wait too long, and they may give up the chase. Not long enough, you may come off as needy and an unfit mate. The more woman that appear to be interested in you, the more desirable you become. It's really quiet primitive if you think about it.
Wow... while that's not the worst story I've read/heard, he sure as hell sounds petty, vindictive and possessive. And that's part of the problem with guys and the perceived 'friend zone'. It's all a case of emotional maturity which one would've thought would develop alongside an individual's maturity in general (I know, what a load of BS, eh). It's the mentality of 'if I can't 'have' her, no-one else should'. It just smacks of a childish petulance that you'd think could be done away with by sixteen.
BTW, no need to have the wall, I don't think you did anything wrong there. And as for your high school days, your conduct was quite admirable IMO.
I don't get that mentality - I only dates friends. I'm also so thick, I don't understand when people are coming on to me. So I usually end up with friends who out of the blue ask me out (although it was obvious to everyone else).
I don't think I've ever given or been given the friend line.
Ha, sounds familiar I think I might be able to one-up you on the being thick part, I once found out that i'd been dating a girl for a month and I didn't even know about it, I just thought we were really close friends.
I also haven't been able to date anyone im not already friends with, I gues I just feel more comfortable because the introductions are out of the way and I already know I like the girl; im also not one to hold a grudge.
Ok I'm not going to read the whole entire thread here but, I'm female and I had a friend in the friend zone (he really had a thing for me) and before you all yell out 'evviill ***** give him a chance!!'
I'm going to say this guy was a very good friend for the last 3 years of high school he did so much for me and supported me so well when I went through horrible times (eg. my childhood friend running from home to the other side of the country with some 30 year old man, never heard from her again and assumed she had been raped and murdered. But that's another story). This whole time I was pretty oblivious being the teenager I was, although he wasn't so direct with his feelings he never really told me how he felt, I just thought this was how friends were meant to be, always there for each other and inseparable. Shit hit the fan when our year 12 formal (prom whatever american equivalent is) came up, everyone had dates, I refused to have a date at the time because I didn't want my memories to be ruined by including someone I know I wouldn't be with in a few years time. So it comes around and everyone's dancing I get asked by another male friend to dance, me being horrible at dancing start dancing and go 'oh no! I can't dance with you! This is bad!' (whatever I said you get the gist), friend zone man comes up and pulls me off this guy and starts trying to dance with me (trying to be a white knight obviously). I pull away instantly and sit down, making my feelings quite obvious with what he did. After school finished I used to hang out with high school friends quite a lot, he started getting more direct and insanely jealous of my other male friends (who are just friends), saying untrue things about them and being just annoying every time I said that I wanted to hang out with a bunch of them. I eventually stopped talking to him for about 2 years, deciding that his refusal to give up on me was ruining what a awesome friendship before. and to be honest I felt betrayed thinking every time that he was there for me and being supportive and being such a good mate he was just thinking 'yes! she's gotta like me for doing this!' I felt horrible like I didn't know this person.
about two years go by before I talk to him, in that time I get into a very serious relationship(which I'm still in I might add), my boyfriend convinces me to talk to him because after all he was my best friend and he wanted to meet him. So I get in contact with him have a awkward sorry conversation he acts all cool with it and everything is good I decide to invite him to a big weekly dnd session with all my friends, since he used to mention it every now and then and how he wanted to check it out (yes quite nerdy hurr durr)he swears at my friends and plain ol' insults them and just generally rude in everything he says. I regretted for getting him involved in the dnd campaign at that point, I later lied saying that it was cancelled so not to hurt his feelings, I would go out and hang out with him at the shops and it would be quite fun walking around chatting it felt like we had our friendship right back on track ^^. After awhile I got engaged he didn't congratulate me like all my other friends and family just stayed quiet, during this time we also had some major floods come through my area (yes quite familiar hurp derp) I posted a message on my facebook telling my family overseas not to worry because we weren't affected, saying something along the lines of our river not being connected to the ones causing the floods. he replied in the message saying 'yeah river are whores like that' I posted a message privately to him asking him not to use language like that because my family (including grandparents would read it) he didn't reply to it. I see him about 2 months later at the local shops he went to hug me as a hello but instead ended up lingering a bit too much longer and it felt like he was embracing me, I flipped out at this point, I push and away and said 'what the hell!? I'm engaged, I'm taken! You can't act like this towards me there was nothing between us and there never will be I don't have feelings for you, we had a awesome friendship until you ruined it, even after 2 years you're still not over me, Just leave me alone and stay out of my life. (something along those lines) I saw a private message on facebook later asking me why I was avoiding him and why I seemed to be mad at him.
Ok for those of you that have read through this whole post, thankyou! I have one final point to make though, do not linger on to the friend zone with a woman you have feelings with it will make it worse, showing tenacity and patience can pay off with many things, this is not one of them. The fact that this guy still thought that if he played his cards right that he could still be with me even after 2 years of not talking to him, even after I was already taken and engaged? seriously? I'm not trying to be cruel and crush your dreams but there is a time to give up and move on, yes you can still be friends with her, yes you can be nice to her but don't do it for the wrong reasons of thinking 'she will think I'm a nice guy!' Do it because you're her friend and she trusts you, there is no worse feeling than that trust being betrayed and that friendship being destroyed.
Ok I'm raising my fire proof wall for all the flame coming my way after posting this.
I'm trying not to be mean here but think of their feelings, if you truly care about their happiness you will let them make their own decisions and be with who they want to be with, if you're not the right person, then accept that and move on.
Also I realize this is badly written and yes the first part is quite juvenile but that's who I was back then
I don't expect you to get much in the way of flaming on this. I think you handled it well. The guy never made a move during the early stages, and by the time he had made his move he was going about things all wrong. After reading the whole thing I think the guy in question was a creeper. I am guessing he is socially awkward and not very comfortable around women.
Maybe you should be proud of the fact that you are going back to school to better your career. If you think being overweight is a major issue for you then start losing weight (actually studies show that people who exorcise regularly are generally much happier even if they are still overweight). All I can really say to you is I understand where you are coming from, I used to have a very similar view point. The trick is if you want something it takes a bit of work to get it. Whether it be a new car, a new job, or a new girl. You can't go up to a potential employer and say "I have no experience, no training, and I am unfit for the posisition. Can I have the job?" It just won't work. Same thing is true for women, if you go looking for a relationship while bringing NOTHING to the table then yes they are going to say no. Maybe they think you need a bit of time to open up so they let you take them to lunch and you are still insecure and clammed up, yes they will walk out. Both sides of a relationship need to be validated in some way or another. When I say relationship here I mean any form of relationship (friendship, family, lovers, ect). You can't expect your friends to stick around if all you do is belittle them and use them for whatever can you? Try to see yourself as a valid catch, if you can't do this then make improvements until you can.
If this happens to anyone say "Well, clearly if you want to date someone like me, date me" if they say "Oh but I don't ruin our friendship" you tell them it's obivious she just wants to use you as an emotional support, not a real friend, and is obliviously lieing to you about this whole wanting "date someone like you". Tell her this is an unfair friendship and she's a liar, so she can go buzz off.
If this happens to anyone say "Well, clearly if you want to date someone like me, date me" if they say "Oh but I don't ruin our friendship" you tell them it's obivious she just wants to use you as an emotional support, not a real friend, and is obliviously lieing to you about this whole wanting "date someone like you". Tell her this is an unfair friendship and she's a liar, so she can go buzz off.
That depends on the situation. If you are only friends to date the girl, then yes I think it is better for everyone that you just make your feelings known and bow out of the friendship when you are rejected. Feelings may get hurt right then, but much better than becoming th creepy stalker. On the otherhand if you are really her friend then still make your feelings known, but if you are rejected then you need to find a way to move past your feelings. If you are having trouble doing this I have a tip (worked for me the one time I couldn't reconsile my feelings for a girl I was friends with) tell her you need to take some time away from her so you can sort out your emotions. She will respect you for it if she is your friend.
If this happens to anyone say "Well, clearly if you want to date someone like me, date me" if they say "Oh but I don't ruin our friendship" you tell them it's obivious she just wants to use you as an emotional support, not a real friend, and is obliviously lieing to you about this whole wanting "date someone like you". Tell her this is an unfair friendship and she's a liar, so she can go buzz off.
That depends on the situation. If you are only friends to date the girl, then yes I think it is better for everyone that you just make your feelings known and bow out of the friendship when you are rejected. Feelings may get hurt right then, but much better than becoming th creepy stalker. On the otherhand if you are really her friend then still make your feelings known, but if you are rejected then you need to find a way to move past your feelings. If you are having trouble doing this I have a tip (worked for me the one time I couldn't reconsile my feelings for a girl I was friends with) tell her you need to take some time away from her so you can sort out your emotions. She will respect you for it if she is your friend.
See, that time away thing does work, but it's also a known startgery to break out of the friend zone as well. You go away for a few months, come back a more "mature person", and if you still have the same feelings again it's possible you're screwed all over. Or it's possible you could actually "win" this time.
To be fair, all the times I've been on the "friendzone" later on it was clear to see she obiviously didn't respect me above her feet warmer. And that's the real problem. When someone says "oh you'll get a GF cos you've got X, now shut up and come listen to me", she's obiviously a liar and not respectful of your feelings.
I think it's very easy for a women to see when she is liked and lead the person on. Females aren't innocent little bunnies who are blind to the world, they just like to give that apperance as it works to their advantage.
Once again I think the situation dictates the response. If you know she is being an emotional leach then yes, forget about her (as much as women aren't innocent litle bunnies neither are guys we can spot emotional ques as well). Some women are oblivious to what sets a guys hair on end though. I have many female friends who (after having a talk with them about the type of advice they come to me for and how I feel when advice is asked and NEVER taken) have turned out to be amazing friends. When I need relationship advice I go to them to get a female perspective. When I have had a realy bad day we all get together and watch a movie or go to our hang out resturaunt. The same is true when they have a bad day / issue / need advice. Honestly it is something that helped me out quite a bit with relationships as I used to be very very submissive, insecure, and awkward around women. Make a group of female friends, they will set you straight fast I promise.
EDIT: Becareful of one of a group of female friends having a romantic interest though, they will stick together and try to hook you guys up. This means they may try to undermine you and your current interest in much the same way the creeper in the FZ will try to undermine a woman's interests.
What a lot of guys refuse to understand is, you are not being fair to women if you present yourself as a friend only to come out of the blue and say you have a romantic interest in them later. Women are not wired like men, they trust that if you approach them as a friend, you will remain a friend. That's all there is to it.
But since guys can become obsessive, they view this as a bad thing. They think that once you are put in the friend zone, there is no way of getting out. Well gentlemen, as a man who has busted out of the friend zone on more than one occasion, and even put girls INTO the friend zone I can give you some comforting advice that might help your outlook.
1) Just because she is a girl and looks up to you does NOT mean that she is into you. You have to understand that men who are able to listen and generally care about a woman's problems are rare. They view you as a person they could trust, so they let their guard down. Understand they are making themselves vulnerable to you. If you misread it as a genuine interest, you will appear like a monster every time.
2) For the love of Christ, have more than one female friend first and foremost. Not all of your friendships need to be deep lasting connections. You would be surprised how many girls out there are simply looking to have a good time, with just about anyone. You might think I'm talking about trashy women but even the classiest girls have their moments. And why not? Women can date douchebags for the thrill of it. Why can't men do something similar? It has that lovely side effect of making you feel and appear more desirable.
3) Don't be as available. When you get older, this becomes less of a problem as you'll have the joys of a career syphoning up your free time. But for the now, do more concrete things apart from playing video games or the internet. Go out with other female friends you have acquired, go places with your guy friends, get a cool part time job, whatever you can think of. Nothing labels you as a lap dog faster than a man who is willing to meet up with a girl whenever they request it. That way whenever you do meet up, you spend quality time with each other and it means more to them and yourself.
4) Don't just become a douchebag because you think you'll have more success. This is by far the stupidest thing I've seen men to do get a woman's attention. Depending on the person, they might get some temporary success but that's all it will be, temporary. What men need to understand is that while nicer guys get snubbed a lot when they are younger, they become a target for marriage later on in life. Any woman who is decent knows this. And you can still get girls now just by being yourself. Chances are, they will be better than the ones you can get for being a douche. At the very least, better for you.
5) If you find out she's not into you, don't take it too harshly. There are so many people out there and the moment you think you've found the best of the best, someone better comes into your life years later. Don't think there is something wrong with you. Don't think that every woman you meet will friend zone you. It is counter productive and will probably lead to you stopping short of a good opportunity due to self doubt. There is a reason why you got so far with that person in the first place. Remember that.
Now stop yer bitching and please be friends to the women who deserve it. Please?
What a lot of guys refuse to understand is, you are not being fair to women if you present yourself as a friend only to come out of the blue and say you have a romantic interest in them later. Women are not wired like men, they trust that if you approach them as a friend, you will remain a friend. That's all there is to it.
But since guys can become obsessive, they view this as a bad thing. They think that once you are put in the friend zone, there is no way of getting out. Well gentlemen, as a man who has busted out of the friend zone on more than one occasion, and even put girls INTO the friend zone I can give you some comforting advice that might help your outlook.
1) Just because she is a girl and looks up to you does NOT mean that she is into you. You have to understand that men who are able to listen and generally care about a woman's problems are rare. They view you as a person they could trust, so they let their guard down. Understand they are making themselves vulnerable to you. If you misread it as a genuine interest, you will appear like a monster every time.
2) For the love of Christ, have more than one female friend first and foremost. Not all of your friendships need to be deep lasting connections. You would be surprised how many girls out there are simply looking to have a good time, with just about anyone. You might think I'm talking about trashy women but even the classiest girls have their moments. And why not? Women can date douchebags for the thrill of it. Why can't men do something similar? It has that lovely side effect of making you feel and appear more desirable.
3) Don't be as available. When you get older, this becomes less of a problem as you'll have the joys of a career syphoning up your free time. But for the now, do more concrete things apart from playing video games or the internet. Go out with other female friends you have acquired, go places with your guy friends, get a cool part time job, whatever you can think of. Nothing labels you as a lap dog faster than a man who is willing to meet up with a girl whenever they request it. That way whenever you do meet up, you spend quality time with each other and it means more to them and yourself.
4) Don't just become a douchebag because you think you'll have more success. This is by far the stupidest thing I've seen men to do get a woman's attention. Depending on the person, they might get some temporary success but that's all it will be, temporary. What men need to understand is that while nicer guys get snubbed a lot when they are younger, they become a target for marriage later on in life. Any woman who is decent knows this. And you can still get girls now just by being yourself. Chances are, they will be better than the ones you can get for being a douche. At the very least, better for you.
5) If you find out she's not into you, don't take it too harshly. There are so many people out there and the moment you think you've found the best of the best, someone better comes into your life years later. Don't think there is something wrong with you. Don't think that every woman you meet with friend zone you. It is counter productive and will probably lead to you stopping short of a good opportunity due to self doubt. There is a reason why you got so far with that person in the first place. Remember that.
Now stop yer bitching and please be friends to the women who deserve it. Please?
1) If you are interested in a girl let her know that early on, this avoids the "Monster" outcome. If she knows you have a vested interest and she still comes to you for advice on her relationship it is because she trusts you, so don't be an ass and blow her relationship because you like her. Remember you like her and you want her to be happy right? Also as stated before if you are just trying to get with her and not really looking for a friendship then move on!
2) I really think a guy should have female friends before getting their dating card anyway. This was one of my big mistakes when I was younger. I had no understanding on how to build a relationship with a woman. I had a few girlfriends in high school that turned into sexual relationships only (which in high school I was fine with). However my first serious relationship failed because of my lack of communication.
3) This one is pretty straight forward. Be yourself and do what you are going to do. Do let your life rotate around any 1 person.
4) This is a get laid tactic, not a relationship builder. I always advocate being yourself, and if you don't like yourself or you aren't sucessful you need to change yourself not pretend to be someone you aren't.
5) If she isn't in to you this is where you step back and evaluate your feelings. Do you think you really want to be her friend? Do you think you are able to put your emotions aside? If you can't do either of these then you may just want to move on and leave her alone, it will be better for both parties involved.
I don't see the point in complaining about women really. I've taken up various hobbies, attempted to improve myself, decided to get my degree instead of laying around unemployed for years. I've started doing more and more outdoor activities.
Seconly, Gigahz, you mentioned having female friends. How do you propose going about doing that? Women are always acting skittish and uncomfortable around me. I don't even have to say anything. I once got maced just for sitting at a lunch table in the college cafeteria. I'm not sure why, but does it matter? I annoy and irritate people just be existing.
Interplay, you know what bugs me more than anything:
1) The constant complaining that sucks
2) I have been told repeatedly by close friends that my outdoor activities like boarding, hiking, and photography aren't interesting to women, but also that I should never mention them again.
So what else is there? I don't watch tv, I don't even own one.
And as for confidence, I'm getting really tired of that word. It has no meaning. Confidence at a job interview? What does that mean. I have no experience working maintenance at a hotel. I can show up but you're going to be training me from ground zero here. Companies want trained professionals, they DON'T have to train. So where to get this real world experience? Just what ARE you supposed to say at an interview. No sir, I have no experience actually doing what you need done? Or Lie and say, yes, I have lots of experience doing this thing that I've never done before? Its one or the other, you either have experience or you don't.
Confidence in dating? What's that? How does a mind set apply to a real world situation with hundreds if not thousands of tiny variables including the environment itself?
I'm not blaming women, I'm blaming myself for failing to learn the needed skills and behaviors to co-exist with other people.
If a girl isn't romantically interested in you, I say take it on the chin. Remember, this friend of yours should be able to have guy friends that she can feel comfortable opening up to, and whether you think so or not, you ARE actually special to her. Also, you now have yourself a cool girl friend who you can talk with about the girl you DO eventually get to date.
yeah, its nice and good to be that guy, it really is. but God help me i do want a girl I can love and she love me back, you know that special something, maybe its just hormones, but i made a promise not to start kissing until a month with the girl and even then not to abuse it.. my life is {weird}
Well to be fair what he described is someone who is self important and feels that he is not a dick so he should get the girl. Now I'm a nice guy, and I don't mind helping someone or doing something but I do put my foot down when I'm sick of something. My last girl friend claim I never talk to her even though she never picks up her phone, and she never responds to her IM's I send her and I told her multiple times I hate texting. Now I first tried to be rash with her, but I told her I'm sick of her crap and I am not in the mood to deal with her crap; I let her know that I called her and she had nothing but excuses for why she would never pick up and I'm done with it. And about the whole "the blame doesn't lie on the crush" it kinda does. You can have reason besides I don't want to date you rather then "it can ruin the friendship" because it wouldn't be fair to then turn around and whine about the guy you picked over him. I know dating has to be meet eye to eye with both parties, but it gets old when someone says "I don't wanna ruin the friendship". But then again since people don't know what they want (guys or girls) it's confusing on what someone should do.
Um, no. It's not the crush's fault if they don't want to be in a relationship with that person.
I agree that girls who whine about their boyfriends to their guy friends are annoying as hell...but that's when the message should be clear: DON'T BE THIS WOMAN'S FRIEND.
If you really are having issues like that, then why are you friends in the first place?
I am not sure where I fall on the whole nice guy spectrum but a girl I liked and still have small feelings for her because of how close we got to each other. But I was on the receiving end of a crying girl calling me about breaking up with her boyfriend. I cared about her a lot and didn't want her to be hurt so I felt that it sucked and I stayed on the phone with her until the guy decided to call her.
I both regret my decision for not saying I would come over and we can just go for a drive for a bit just to get her out of her house and I also don't regret them at all because it could have blown up in our faces and ruined what a great friendship we had and still have.
Yeah it sucks sometimes having unrequited feelings but sometimes you just have to accept it and just be there for the person.
I am very happy to say that this has never happened to me. I have have only dated twice though, and I don't like the whole short term thing. For me I only date if it is something I can see going somewhere.
I don't see the point in complaining about women really. I've taken up various hobbies, attempted to improve myself, decided to get my degree instead of laying around unemployed for years. I've started doing more and more outdoor activities.
Seconly, Gigahz, you mentioned having female friends. How do you propose going about doing that? Women are always acting skittish and uncomfortable around me. I don't even have to say anything. I once got maced just for sitting at a lunch table in the college cafeteria. I'm not sure why, but does it matter? I annoy and irritate people just be existing.
Interplay, you know what bugs me more than anything:
1) The constant complaining that sucks
2) I have been told repeatedly by close friends that my outdoor activities like boarding, hiking, and photography aren't interesting to women, but also that I should never mention them again.
So what else is there? I don't watch tv, I don't even own one.
And as for confidence, I'm getting really tired of that word. It has no meaning. Confidence at a job interview? What does that mean. I have no experience working maintenance at a hotel. I can show up but you're going to be training me from ground zero here. Companies want trained professionals, they DON'T have to train. So where to get this real world experience? Just what ARE you supposed to say at an interview. No sir, I have no experience actually doing what you need done? Or Lie and say, yes, I have lots of experience doing this thing that I've never done before? Its one or the other, you either have experience or you don't.
Confidence in dating? What's that? How does a mind set apply to a real world situation with hundreds if not thousands of tiny variables including the environment itself?
I'm not blaming women, I'm blaming myself for failing to learn the needed skills and behaviors to co-exist with other people.
I will address the prevelant issue here. If you find that nobody wants to be around you perhaps it is you who needs to change. As for the job interviews yes, they want experience. This is why most places allow volunteer work (much like making a friend of a female huh?) to give you experience. Confidence doesn't mean you have to be 100% sure of yourself, but find the strong points you possess and build on them!
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I decide to invite him to a big weekly dnd session with all my friends, since he used to mention it every now and then and how he wanted to check it out (yes quite nerdy hurr durr)he swears at my friends and plain ol' insults them and just generally rude in everything he says. I regretted for getting him involved in the dnd campaign at that point, I later lied saying that it was cancelled so not to hurt his feelings, I would go out and hang out with him at the shops and it would be quite fun walking around chatting it felt like we had our friendship right back on track ^^. After awhile I got engaged he didn't congratulate me like all my other friends and family just stayed quiet, during this time we also had some major floods come through my area (yes quite familiar hurp derp) I posted a message on my facebook telling my family overseas not to worry because we weren't affected, saying something along the lines of our river not being connected to the ones causing the floods. he replied in the message saying 'yeah river are whores like that' I posted a message privately to him asking him not to use language like that because my family (including grandparents would read it) he didn't reply to it. I see him about 2 months later at the local shops he went to hug me as a hello but instead ended up lingering a bit too much longer and it felt like he was embracing me, I flipped out at this point, I push and away and said 'what the hell!? I'm engaged, I'm taken! You can't act like this towards me there was nothing between us and there never will be I don't have feelings for you, we had a awesome friendship until you ruined it, even after 2 years you're still not over me, Just leave me alone and stay out of my life. (something along those lines) I saw a private message on facebook later asking me why I was avoiding him and why I seemed to be mad at him.
