Funcom's Secret World is Anti-Grind

[StriderShinryu]

A common thread here seems to be the assumption that an MMO has to be what (subscription based) MMOs have always been, a somewhat veiled time sink. Perhaps Funcom is trying to something different with TSW, and that is the idea that excites me about it. Provide a setting that encourages storyline, exploration, roleplaying and experience. Involve the players in something different and make them feel a part of an ongoing world. It's really very similar to what The Matrix Online tried to do (and, for a time, succeeded at for it's small population of players). MxO was killed by several factors (the lack of success of the later films, being rushed out before it was anywhere near ready, etc.) but the promise was definitely there.

I suppose I'm just not sure that an MMORPG has to do the same sort of things thar WoW does. it may not have to be about grinding for XP, gear, etc. and just maybe can be more about what MMORPG actually stands for; role playing in a large world with other players. Will TSW do this? No idea, it's far too early to say, but at least so far they're saying the right things.

 

[Nutcase]

There's also the possibility that perhaps they aren't aiming for the typical hardcore MMO crowd. There are a lot of players out there who don't play MMOs for the reasons you're saying because they see them as negatives and not positives. In every MMO I've played, there's always been a pretty vocal group of the population who believes knowledge and skill should be rewarded more than the number of hours you can put into the game. It seems to me that TSW is catering itself more to this group and to those who play for the story/world/RP experience instead of the usual grind. Not that hours+grinding=reward is wrong (and I don't believe for a second TSW won't have any grind at all), but it may just not be what Funcom is aiming for.

A lot of the arguments you are making rely heavily on the word "skill". How do you define skill in an MMO? Is it something you have to constantly work at? Or is it something that becomes apparent in the first few hours of playing? The answers are grind = skill, yes, and no. Fighting games are a prime example of "grind = skill". Games like Virtua Fighter and Tekken require hours of playing(or grind) before one can honestly call himself a skilled player.

There is no grind whatsoever in either of these games. The game doesn't care whether you have played hours or hundreds of hours. If you make moves that beat the opponent's, you win - as simple as that.

MMOs are the same way. One who grinds learns the innermost secrets of the game and stand above all with the title of a skilled player.

Grinding doesn't have to do with either understanding the game better or being a skilled player. It's simply something you do because it boosts your character. When my first character in WoW was at level 40, I was easily a more skilled player than the majority of level 60's, who had done at least twice the grinding and much more than twice on average (endgame grinding + alts).

You can't jump into a game and honestly become a skilled player in the very beginning.

Sure you can, if the game is easy and the other players are bad.

You have to work at it or the game loses any sense of accomplishment you might get from it later on.

Correction: the game has to be challenging enough that the player can't just walk all over it, else there is no accomplishment in beating it, and consequently no sense of accomplishment.

 

[Disembodied_Dave]

I really can't wait for this game. Everything about it has seemed really cool and interesting. However I really wish they'd start work on Dreamfall: Chapters already. I needs to know what happens!..

 

[Jeronus]

There's also the possibility that perhaps they aren't aiming for the typical hardcore MMO crowd. There are a lot of players out there who don't play MMOs for the reasons you're saying because they see them as negatives and not positives. In every MMO I've played, there's always been a pretty vocal group of the population who believes knowledge and skill should be rewarded more than the number of hours you can put into the game. It seems to me that TSW is catering itself more to this group and to those who play for the story/world/RP experience instead of the usual grind. Not that hours+grinding=reward is wrong (and I don't believe for a second TSW won't have any grind at all), but it may just not be what Funcom is aiming for.

A lot of the arguments you are making rely heavily on the word "skill". How do you define skill in an MMO? Is it something you have to constantly work at? Or is it something that becomes apparent in the first few hours of playing? The answers are grind = skill, yes, and no. Fighting games are a prime example of "grind = skill". Games like Virtua Fighter and Tekken require hours of playing(or grind) before one can honestly call himself a skilled player.

There is no grind whatsoever in either of these games. The game doesn't care whether you have played hours or hundreds of hours. If you make moves that beat the opponent's, you win - as simple as that.

MMOs are the same way. One who grinds learns the innermost secrets of the game and stand above all with the title of a skilled player.

Grinding doesn't have to do with either understanding the game better or being a skilled player. It's simply something you do because it boosts your character. When my first character in WoW was at level 40, I was easily a more skilled player than the majority of level 60's, who had done at least twice the grinding and much more than twice on average (endgame grinding + alts).

You can't jump into a game and honestly become a skilled player in the very beginning.

Sure you can, if the game is easy and the other players are bad.

You have to work at it or the game loses any sense of accomplishment you might get from it later on.

Correction: the game has to be challenging enough that the player can't just walk all over it, else there is no accomplishment in beating it, and consequently no sense of accomplishment.

The "grind" I was referring to when you slowly learn what your character is capable of by fighting enemies learning their weaknesses and your own capabilities through fighting enemies. The same is true of MMORPG. While you grind, you learn exactly what your can and can't do. It's more than just character boosting. Each time you grind you learn exactly what your character needs to improve, what to ignore, and how to overcome certain situations. The grind is basically practice for the battles ahead. I will concede that some games are easy and a few don't even provide that much of a challenge,but I never met or heard of anyone who jumped into an MMO and instantly mastered it in the first few hours and I especially never heard of an MMO that was particularly easy. You said you play WoW and you say you are skilled. I bet you learned everything you needed to know about your character while grinding. You learned the what, where, when, and how of all your abilities while fighting the same monsters over and over again and as a result you learned how to use your abilities more effectively in combat. That is what makes you skilled and you didn't just start that way in the very beginning. You became skilled while you were grinding.

 

[Nutcase]

I will concede that some games are easy and a few don't even provide that much of a challenge,but I never met or heard of anyone who jumped into an MMO and instantly mastered it in the first few hours

I'm dead certain that *any* one of my gamer friends who has never played WoW or other MMO, but is good at strategy games, and is used to handling FPS and RTS interfaces, could be handed a max level character in WoW, play a couple of days and be superior in combat ability to the average player of that class. That's how bad the average is.

Now certainly there is room to learn more after that, but it levels off really, really fast. And virtually none of it will be learned by grinding.

 

[Bigsmith]

HAHA, just like warhammer did. NOT.

 

[driveBYargument]

We'll see... So far no one has been able to successfully implement a system that is far from "grinding" that doesn't break the system or give people an incentive to play any longer than a few hours.

 

[rembrandtqeinstein]

DDO doesn't have leveling grind unless you are f2p. The p2p has enough quests to take you to 20 and not repeat any difficulties (at least it had enough to take my alt to 14 not repeating, with no end in sight).

Where DDO does have grind is in the crafting system(s). However almost everyone loves it. To craft a single object requires about 30 raids of one stupid instance to get your crafting materials.

However you can easily get 3-6 months of gameplay just leveling a couple of characters and having a ton of fun while doing it.