Game of Thrones Season 6 general discussion.

[Sonmi]

Well except Sansa offers Jon probably the best advice anyone had given him and he not only fails to follow it but fucks everything up by ignoring what she said. She told him Rickon was a lost cause. She told him that Ramsay wasn't going to fall for his trap and that he'd most likely fall for his and that if he let that happen he'd lose. Then Jon immediately abandons the battleplan to try and save the lost cause and then decides to charge Ramsay's army by himself, forcing his own army to charge in to save him.

Her advice was common sense, it wasn't so great tidbit of wisdom.

Jon would have been baited into the charge regardless of if he knew reinforcements were coming, because it wasn't a sound military decision but a completely emotional response to his grief and anger. And since the battle isn't exactly a long one, there would be no real way to avoid Ramsay's bait. Jon would need to have an unreasonably specific idea of when the reinforcements would come and know exactly what Ramsay would do to avoid succumbing to the exact same thing; the second they form up, Ramsay throws his bait and Jon abandons his plan.

Jon could have delayed the encounter if he knew that a massive army was coming to support him... he pretty much knew if he was a goner as well, which usually leads to one acting irrationally.

I don't think he would have charged, or even organized his forces to meet Ramsay's so soon, if he knew that the battle was won if he waited a bit longer.

 

[Sonmi]

The episode was completely predictable, and not only because its major plot points had already leaked.

The fight was ridiculous, though the chaos of the combat was a very well represented element, Dany is simply doing more of the same "Call a parley and then attack out of nowhere", there was no emotional weight to the death of Rickon, and Sansa is acting completely irrationally... demanding Jon that he asks for her help, only to tell him she doesn't know what to do, while still withholding the truth about the Knights of the Vale being on their way. More than a thousand men could have potentially been saved should she have told Jon of their cousin being on his way, they could have built their strategy around that instead of being almost entirely routed before Littlefinger saved the day.

Honestly the weakest episode 9 of any season.

I really liked the scene where Davos finds the wooden stag in the remains of the pyre though, that scene had emotional gravitas.

You said plot points have been leaked so question:

Spoiler

So will Arya return to the Westeros and kill Walder Frey during that whole celebration scene in the preview? Because it could happen. I mean look at the Greyjoy plot I thought they were just gonna pad out Theon and Yara reaching Dany and Tyrion but no they immidietely meet her at last, so mabye the will just cut to the chase and have Arya at Westeros right now

Theon and Asha/Yara at least had a short chat about Dany before they teleported there.

Spoiler

I'm pretty sure we'll have a scene of Arya learning about the Frey wedding before teleporting there.

 

[Sonmi]

It really wasn't. Giving up on Rickon isn't common sense and it is something that Jon not only immediately rejects the second she brings it up but trying to save Rickon and avenging him causes Jon to abandon his entire strategy and force his men to the slaughter. Also, yes "don't fall for the trap" is common sense, but "he's not going to fall for your trap and you're going to fall for his" is certainly not. After all, Jon thought he did a really good job baiting Ramsay in their meeting.

I have to disagree there, Rickon being a goner was a given. Ramsay has no reason to keep him alive.

And as you said, "He's not going to fall for your trap" and "You're going to fall for his" is far from the most thoughtful comment even made. It's essentially saying "Don't underestimate your foe", yes, it may be true, but it's not constructive in the least.

Ahh, so if he was aware that a large force with lots of cavalry was going to arrive that day from Ramsay's flank and catch him completely off guard, it would be sound military strategy to not fight on that day, let Ramsay know about and plan around his reinforcements, and lose every single advantage that a sudden cavalry charge to the flanks (or your back) has?

The Knights of the Vale made it so far completely undetected (which is honestly completely ridiculous), no reason their plot cloaking device would fail them just because they had the time to talk with Jon and coordinate the ambush instead of coming out of nowhere when everything is thought to be lost.

It wasn't won if he waited. The only reason Ramsay was so confident as to abandon his strong walls and meet Jon in the field was because Jon's army was half as big and was primarily made up of light infantry. You throw the Knights of the Vale into it and suddenly there's a lot less reason to be so sure of your ability to win a pitched battle in an open field.

Again, the Knights of the Vale made it through half of the freaking North undetected, no reason why they couldn't stay undetected while still coordinating their ambush with Jon.

 

[Sonmi]

And yet Jon rejects what she says immediately and abandons his entire strategy because of Rickon. Maybe it was a given to the audience, but everyone else apparently had some misplaced hope for it.

Considering Jon's entire strategy rested on baiting Ramsay into attacking his line so he could have a slight advantage there, it's clearly something that needed to be said because everyone else was underestimating Ramsay.

Despair leads to people acting brashly and irrationally, despair that wouldn't be present if Jon knew how much of a numerical advantage he had over Ramsay.

So your reason for why this would work is because the plot armor that explains Ramsay not knowing about the Knights of the Vale that surprised everyone (I imagine that they had probably been riding nonstop since Sansa went and got them, giving scouts little time to report back) we should assume that if the Knights of the Vale had established a nearby camp hat would go completely undetected and that Ramsay wouldn't be at all concerned about Jon postponing the battle.

The Knights of the Vale would have been riding for several weeks, even months, passing by several holdings, setting up several camps. Sansa knew about them being on the move for a while, and could have told Jon about it at any time, she didn't. Ramsay wouldn't be concerned about Jon postponing the battle, considering there wouldn't have been a parlay until Jon and the Knights of the Vale coordinated their plans in the first place.

again, if you're reasoning is that somethign unreasonable happened and therefore your unreasonable thing is perfectly fine, you're not making a good argument. There's also quite a bit of difference between a quick march on someone who's preparing for a pitched battle and unaware of anyone that would come help them and establishing a hidden camp for your army while scouts report that there seems to be some guys from the Vale scurrying around the enemy camp whose commander suspiciously didn't form up for battle the day it was supposed to happen.

My reasoning is that Ramsay is not scouting around whatsoever, or else he would have known about the knights already.

Yours is that the Vale couldn't have coordinated an attack with Jon no matter the circumstances without Ramsay being aware of the Knights, which is completely absurd, and baseless. Ravens and messengers exist for a reason.

Sansa fucked up, and fucked over Jon and the Wildlings in the process, it's something that happens. There was no reason whatsoever to leave him in the dark and endanger so many lives in the process.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Sansa fucked up

When a character does something inexplicable, logically inconsistent, or wildly out of established behavior, it's not a case of "[character] fucked up". It's the writers fucking up.

Game of Thrones has very gradually transitioned from a loose adaptation of a bestselling series of intricate novels to a super-saiyan-ultra-badass empty calories spectacle with dumb-as-a-brick writing and generous dollops of cheese. Sansa didn't tell Jon about the Knights of the Vale because "It'll be so cool and surprising for the audience when they come out of nowhere". Not because it makes any rational sense.

This was about one of the newer Die Hard films, but it applies just as well to GoT.

https://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/217521921_7GXmh/0/2100x20000/217521921_7GXmh-2100x20000.jpg

Link doesn't want to embed for some reason.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

Just finished the episode, and I gotta say I kinda love this season. SUE ME FUCKERS! Yeah, it went totally how everyone said it would, but a part of me was still anxious to see what would happen. They really sold the odds being against Jon. Like I've said previously, the show's writing has gone completely down the shitter compared to seasons 1-3, but goddamn if the entertainment value hasn't improved massively over seasons 4 and 5. Jon going full Kratos on Ramsay's face was especially satisfying, and the kind of payback we wanted for Joffrey. The battle scene was the kind of stuff we could only dream of in season 1.

There was also a couple of bits of foreshadowing at the end which I appreciated. After going through a loss of faith, Melisandre seems to have regained her old familiar smirk from season 2, and Davos giving that concerned look obviously hints at his concern that Jon might be just a new Stannis in the making. Sansa's gone through quite a change, as can be evidenced by her calmly watching a man getting devoured alive.

On the other hand, the Meereen plot has gone full retard. Daenerys is practically a Mary Sue at this point, and if they keep this up I'm going to lose all sympathy for her. A youtuber I follow called book Dany "the Queen Midas of shit", which is about as far from TV Dany as we get. We've seen so little of the negative consequences of her actions that they might as well not be there. The last time she suffered any kind of loss was Barristan, and that was, what, a season and a half ago? The Ironborn just teleporting into Meereen instead of getting any kind of arrival was also something they could have done instead of THAT FUCKING JOKE SCENE IN EP 8 WHAT IN TITTYFUCKING CHRIST'S NAME WAS THAT???? We've seen Euron in exactly one episode so far, and unless they're going to make him a chief antagonist in the next season, he's far from any kind of credible threat.

All in all, a very enjoyable episode barring most of the shit in Meereen. Eagerly waiting for the season finale.

 

[Sonmi]

*snip*

Well yes, I absolutely agree that it was done for metanarrative reasons, so that this season would also get its "The cavalry's here!" moment.

Looking at the events and characters alone though, Sansa fucked up.

To be entirely fair though, the same thing happened in ACoK/Season 2. Cersei and Tyrion should have known that Tywin and Mace were on their way to save their bacon at the Blackwater. While them being kept in the dark did not have as dire consequences, it was still dumb that they would have not been informed.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

To be entirely fair though, the same thing happened in ACoK/Season 2. Cersei and Tyrion should have known that Tywin and Mace were on their way to save their bacon at the Blackwater. While them being kept in the dark did not have as dire consequences, it was still dumb that they would have not been informed.

Yes and no. The city was under siege, and covered on both land and seaward sides. There was already established precedent in the books for "Ravens getting shot down" when attempting communication over armies (Ravens are not the Westeros equivalent of cell phones, they're vulnerable to arrows). The deal that merged the Lannister/Tyrell armies and brought them to Kings Landing was a last minute affair.

While it's certainly possible some communication could've gotten through, it's also plausible that they were unaware. It's absolutely implausible that Sansa would, out of pique towards Littlefinger, neglect to tell Jon about his offer of aid and cheerfully send thousands of men off to their probable deaths. Like...it's actively risible. It's the kind of character-deaf writing that has been plaguing the show for a few seasons now, ever since they ran out of material and started ad libbing. The characters are not longer "characters", they're just devices to push the nu-plot.

 

[Sonmi]

Somehow I doubt a numerical advantage would lead to him not charging after Rickon and then becoming emotionally distraught at his death. It wasn't exactly a tactical decision to do either of those things.

Let's agree to disagree that despair can influence how someone reacts to a certain event, then.

So the Knights of the Vale should have just been present and circling around Winterfell for weeks and removing any possibility of surprise because as unlikely as it is that Ramsay didn't learn about their forced night march to the battle, it is beyond belief that he wouldn't notice them if extensive contact existed between Jon and this roving group of knights that are really close to Winterfell.

Considering they have been riding in the North for weeks/months, and likely even rode through the Lannister-held Riverlands and that no one ever noticed them, then I don't think that the idea of them camping a day away from Winterfell for a few days without being noticed would have been ridiculous, no. Ramsay, the Northmen, and the Riverlands clearly have a big scouting problem if a host this massive was able to sneak past everyone for weeks/months.

Unless they came from a good distance away overnight which is very likely what happened. It is also something that they couldn't organize in such a way as to have the Knights after the battle started but earlier than they already did because Jon abandoned all strategy to charge into Ramsay's line by himself after Rickon's death. If the Knights of the Vale had camped closer, it'd take what is a bit unbelievable and make it an giant plot hole.

They did not come from a good distance overnight, they came from a good distance over weeks/months. Them being undetected is already a massive giant plothole. Add to that that Sansa never mentions anything about them to Jon, and you've got an enormous plothole twofer.

Them camping nearby and staying in contact with Jon's force undetected would have been far more believable.

Oh, we're to the point where we start making up arguments for the other side. How wonderful. No, my reasoning is that it is highly unlikely that they could have coordinated an ambush similar to what actually happened when the Knights of the Vale surprised everyone.

It's not any less likely than them going from the Vale to Winterfell undetected and arriving at the very exact moment required for them to save the day. Keeping Jon in the dark was a stupid unnecessary risk.

Sansa's literally the only reason Jon isn't responsible for the complete annihilation of his entire army because he abandons all sense and strategy to do exactly what Ramsay wants him to do. But we're supposed to place all the blame on Sansa and assume that had Jon been made aware of the Knights of the Vale (who we're meant to ignore are led by the man who sold Sansa to her rapist and thus a group she should be fairly wary of) he would have managed to pull off an amazing ambush and won the day easily.

Sansa is also literally the only reason Jon drew up such a hopeless plan in the first place by hiding a massive host of allies from him.

I'm usually not one to play the blame game, I think people blaming Catelyn for the War of the Five Kings/Robb's defeat is completely ridiculous for instance, but here, Sansa is clearly to blame.

Tell me, why would ever justify her keeping Robin's forces coming to help secret from Jon? Unless she was actively planning in getting him possibly killed or weakened (which I highly doubt was the case) there was literally no point in doing so.

 

[Sonmi]

Yes and no. The city was under siege, and covered on both land and seaward sides. There was already established precedent in the books for "Ravens getting shot down" when attempting communication over armies (Ravens are not the Westeros equivalent of cell phones, they're vulnerable to arrows). The deal that merged the Lannister/Tyrell armies and brought them to Kings Landing was a last minute affair.

Considering the alliance between Mace and the Lannisters was struck up at Bitterbridge, there would have been plenty of time to send King's Landing a raven about the alliance. The siege happened while Tywin and Mace were already less than a day away from the city.

It's absolutely implausible that Sansa would, out of pique towards Littlefinger, neglect to tell Jon about his offer of aid and cheerfully send thousands of men off to their probable deaths. Like...it's actively risible. It's the kind of character-deaf writing that has been plaguing the show for a few seasons now, ever since they ran out of material and started ad libbing. The characters are not longer "characters", they're just devices to push the nu-plot.

100% agreed.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Considering the alliance between Mace and the Lannisters was struck up at Bitterbridge, there would have been plenty of time to send King's Landing a raven about the alliance. The siege happened while Tywin and Mace were already less than a day away from the city.

Alright let's go with "They were pursuing/following Stannis's army, and didn't want to risk a Raven being intercepted...thereby losing the crucial element of surprise". It's plausible! I'm already a better writer than the show guys! =P

 

[Sonmi]

Considering the alliance between Mace and the Lannisters was struck up at Bitterbridge, there would have been plenty of time to send King's Landing a raven about the alliance. The siege happened while Tywin and Mace were already less than a day away from the city.

Alright let's go with "They were pursuing/following Stannis's army, and didn't want to risk a Raven being intercepted...thereby losing the crucial element of surprise". It's plausible! I'm already a better writer than the show guys! =P

To be nitpicky...

Spoiler

Tywin and Stannis were riding/sailing to King's Landing from different sides, which means a raven would have no chance of being intercepted.

It's still a better explanation than what we are given so far with the Knights of the Vale though.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

To be nitpicky...

Spoiler

Tywin and Stannis were riding/sailing to King's Landing from different sides, which means a raven would have no chance of being intercepted.

It's still a better explanation than what we are given so far with the Knights of the Vale though.

IIRC Stannis only takes some of his force by sea. The rest proceeds up the Kingsroad. He more or less has King's Landing encircled, albeit still with a relatively meager force.

PS - Pretty sure we don't need to spoiler events from Book/Season 2

 

[Sonmi]

To be nitpicky...

Spoiler

Tywin and Stannis were riding/sailing to King's Landing from different sides, which means a raven would have no chance of being intercepted.

It's still a better explanation than what we are given so far with the Knights of the Vale though.

IIRC Stannis only takes some of his force by sea. The rest proceeds up the Kingsroad. He more or less has King's Landing encircled, albeit still with a relatively meager force.

PS - Pretty sure we don't need to spoiler events from Book/Season 2

True, but Stannis is coming from the Storm's End, which means from the South, while Tywin and Mace come directly from the East along the Roseroad, I doubt they could have intercepted each other before reaching King's Landing .

I miss when the show was good, and logistics actually a point of potential discussion.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

True, but Stannis is coming from the Storm's End, which means from the South, while Tywin and Mace come directly from the East along the Roseroad, I doubt they could have intercepted each other before reaching King's Landing .

I miss when the show was good, and logistics actually a point of potential discussion.

Stannis is coming from the same direction Mace would be coming from, as they're both composed of elements of the same original army (Renly's). The two hosts would have merged at some point before converging on King's Landing. So I guess Tywin and the Lannister remnants could have sent word, but how far in advance of the two armies combining was the pact sealed? Did Stannis have outriders/scouts in place near Kings Landing to kill ravens? Salient questions, all.

I also don't have a map of Westeros handy so I don't know if it would have made more sense for Tywin to detour south, or Mace to push north, before moving in on KL.

Hahaha logistics. Logistics has become a punch line on the show. Need a character in place X by Y time? Poof! They're there!

It took Robert months to make the trip from KL to Winterfell. Littlefinger goes back and forth between the Vale and the North about 20 times in a week. Buddy has a time traveling Delorean in his bag of tricks.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

This is a very conflicted episode. While on a technical level the show was great, providing one of the most intense battle sequences ever on the show the plotting was paint by numbers and there is questionable writing abound. The most egregious has to do with what's been plaguing the show for too long: Ramsay was never an interesting character nor a convincing villain. Unlike the other battles where we had complex motivations and interesting characters on either side (Blackwater where we had Tyrion, Davos, Stannis, Bronn, all characters we're invested in and whose sides have serious flaws or Watchers on the Wall where it's the desperate Wildlings who just want to get South versus the Watch who are looking to protect the realm and we have the wrinkles of Jon, Ygritte, Sam, Tormund, etc who we all care about) or a chilling expose on the genuine threat of the White Walkers in Hardhome and the otherworldly chill the Night King sends down your spine.

There is nothing like that in Battle of the Bastards. We have the heroic Jon versus Ramsay, a character who nobody cares about and who has to be beaten for the plot to get back on track. He's just a traffic barrier keeping anything from progressing and it's clear the writers knew how little tension there was because they had to have Jon act like an idiot in order to make Ramsay have any sort of advantage. It's that weird effect where things get so stacked against the heroes the tension gets sucked out because at that point we're waiting for the deus ex machina. Things were cathartic when Ramsay was reduced to a pleading mess begging for his life and his entire line extinguished because of his incompetence and cruelty, but that had to happen so it's still just another point on the list to check off. And the end of the day it's really questionable what this episode contributes to the overall plot besides finally getting rid of Ramsay who everyone wanted gone years ago because he was getting in the way of dealing with the real threat: the White Walkers.

As for Meereen, I really don't know what the showrunners are trying to do with Dany. First it was shown that she needed to have more than words to get anywhere in the world, then it was that her conquering ways had consequences, then it was that she needed to be an actual politician who committed to decisions instead of doing it halfway, now it's that she wasn't ruthless and murdery enough? Are they trying to say just eat your way through to the other side of an issue, because that's what it's coming off as. Plus it shows Tyrion didn't really accomplish much this season except farting around in Meereen (which probably means he's one of the boys now for the Meereen cast). We do finally get another thread converging with Yara and Theon joining with Dany which hopefully means she can finally get out of Essos after overstaying her welcome. I'm really looking forward to how the finale wraps things up, hopefully with dead Sparrows and some last minute revelations.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

snip

I was hoping someone would give their opinion on this suggestion I made about what happened:

Spoiler

I truly think they should have had Ramsey committed suicide when he realized he lost the battle to deny Sansa and Jon the revenge they desire after he killed Rickon. I mean imo it would totally be in character to him, or at the very least in character with the tone of the show. Good people die while evil people for the most part get away with it, and Ramsey killing himself would "get away" with all the terrible things he has done. Heck if he ends up dying in the Books because of this battle of winterfell I certainly hope George Martin makes him commit suicide