Game of Thrones - Well, Stannis fans, what do you think of him NOW? (Spoilers)

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Somekindofgold

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With the show butchering Stannis (I know Shireen is going to burn in the books, its been foreshadowed, but its not going to be Stannis that does it because hes currently stuck in the middle of a blizzard preparing to attack Winterfell), trying to turn Selyse into a sympathetic character with a complete 180 degree change (She borderline HATES Shireen and is a zealot, she'd love to have her daughter burned. Stannis was always the one who gave a shit about Shireen) and the rumors circulating of Euron being in next season, I'm turning to the sociopathic rapist pirate as my pick for show GoT.

Stannis in the books is still my King, but in the show I now back Euron, because there is absolutely no way they can butcher him. He's already pure evil so they dont have to sacrifice anything to make him look bad in comparison to their waifu Dany. All they have to do is get a good actor for him, one that can do charismatic evil, and we're golden.

Also while we're on the subject, what the fuck was with that 'I'm going to break the wheel' bullshit Dany was spouting? is she a revolutionary now? She wants to RULE people, and in medieval times rule pretty much means own, and shes talking about freeing them from oppression? this is just ridiculous, she wants to be the god damn oppressor!
 

Somekindofgold

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Boris Goodenough said:
Well after I just saw S5E10:
I am going to say it's not looking so well for him :p
As soon as that god damn scene reached its climax I stopped the recording, deleted the episode from my mystar box, threw my remote across the room and walked out.

I'm done. Not even Euron is going to get me back next season. At least I have Black Sails to look forward to..
 

LostCrusader

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Somekindofgold said:
Boris Goodenough said:
Well after I just saw S5E10:
I am going to say it's not looking so well for him :p
As soon as that god damn scene reached its climax I stopped the recording, deleted the episode from my mystar box, threw my remote across the room and walked out.

I'm done. Not even Euron is going to get me back next season. At least I have Black Sails to look forward to..
I decided that I must have been watching some fan fiction, because that episode was all kinds of awful.
 

Zhukov

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BloatedGuppy said:
I think the problems with Dany are twofold. One, Clarke isn't a very good actress. She's not bringing any subtlety to the performance. Two, the show's pacing is so ridiculously breakneck and slapdash that they have absolutely no time for nuance or complexity. It's just Dany free slave. Dany gud.
Shame that.

Book Dany has this kind of ever-so-slightly unstable thing going on. You can totally see her going Mad Queen if something gives her a shove. Show Dany is, like you said, just presented as The Saviour which isn't nearly as interesting.

Also, Clarke just acts so damn tremulous. No authority at all.

PS. Can't wait for all the Enlightening Debate and Commentary that will follow the most recent episode.
 

Nirallus

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The show has been milking brutal death scenes so often, and for so long, that some people are already speculating that Stannis is still alive purely because the moment of his death happened off-screen. I haven't heard any convincing theories as to what Brienne swung her sword at instead. Maybe D&D just hate Stannis so much that they wouldn't even show his death on camera.

And I was disappointed that the Vale knights hadn't shown up. Maybe Littlefinger can only teleport a few people around, and not a whole army.
 

Kingjackl

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I was happy with Stannis' comeuppance, because it was a rare case where the high and mighty lords, nobles and priests which make up the bulk of our POV characters were undone by the simple motives and morals of the common people. During the last episode, when they were showing the horrified reactions of all the soldiers to Shireen's burning, I thought to myself "oh, it would be so great if Stannis' army rebelled against him for pulling this shit". I didn't think that would happen, since soldiers in Game of Thrones are usually just chess pieces that rape and pillage, so it was satisfying to be proven wrong, and to see Melissandre's reaction, which can basically be summarized as "oh shit, people don't like it when you burn little girls at the stake, who'd have thought?"

So yeah, that's my thoughts on his death. I know a lot of people are disappointed that he's not going to sit on the Iron Throne and I can sympathise, but I always felt the writing was on the wall with Stannis. Everyone who's read the books tells me he's practically perfect in every way, and I wish that was the version we got here, but the fact that his book counterpart is knocking around with the Lord of Light (and is written full time by George R. R. Martin) makes me doubt Book!Stannis is in for a happier ending.
 

Cowabungaa

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Well that was a funny finale, me and a friend of mine were actually doubting the show had the balls to
go all Ceasar on Jon, seeing as how he's one of the last pretty-boy fan favourites.

But boy this finale was a mess. An entertaining mess, but good lord disjointed. I really liked what they did with Sam though, his arc in the show is a lot more interesting than his arc in the books.

Actual highlights though:

- Jaime manning up and having an adorable moment.
- Sam manning up and taking responsibility.
- Dat Davos acting.
- Arya's funtimes and her little mindfuck moment afterwards, even though it was kinda shoddy.
Zhukov said:
Show Dany is, like you said, just presented as The Saviour which isn't nearly as interesting.
Really? I see all kinds of unhinged behavior in that lass. Violent with no clue what to do, even just got up and flew away. Sure, they present her as someone who wants to be a saviour, but also as someone who doesn't really know how to go about that.

Kingjackl said:
Everyone who's read the books tells me he's practically perfect in every way, and I wish that was the version we got here, but the fact that his book counterpart is knocking around with the Lord of Light (and is written full time by George R. R. Martin) makes me doubt Book!Stannis is in for a happier ending.
Honestly they just sped up his arc, Book!Stannis is getting his ass handed to him just as much.
Somekindofgold said:
Boris Goodenough said:
Well after I just saw S5E10:
I am going to say it's not looking so well for him :p
As soon as that god damn scene reached its climax I stopped the recording, deleted the episode from my mystar box, threw my remote across the room and walked out.

I'm done. Not even Euron is going to get me back next season. At least I have Black Sails to look forward to..
Oh come now, that moment wasn't that bad. It's pretty much happening in the book too, except through Ramsay and not Brienne. Kinda happy Brienne did it, though her "gee wiz this is a coincidence" appearance is kinda silly. But he was fucked anyway.
RiseOfTheWhiteWolf said:
Man that episode was horrible. The entire season was horrible. What in the actual fuck are they thinking?

Personal highlight: "U want de bad pu$$y ;;)))))))"
Laughed so hard at that, Christ that was the worst line in the entire season. Such a rotten shame that they ruined the Sand Snakes though. Hell, the whole Dorne spiel. The books are going for all kinds of political machinations but nope none of that here.
 

Azure-Supernova

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Cowabungaa said:
Kingjackl said:
Everyone who's read the books tells me he's practically perfect in every way, and I wish that was the version we got here, but the fact that his book counterpart is knocking around with the Lord of Light (and is written full time by George R. R. Martin) makes me doubt Book!Stannis is in for a happier ending.
Honestly they just sped up his arc, Book!Stannis is getting his ass handed to him just as much.
Last I read Stannis is doing a hell of a lot better in the book. He's got the support of Flints, Norreys and Liddles, all of whom were fiercely loyal to Eddard and want to see Boltons out of Winterfell. Combine that with the added support from house Glover and Mormont and the arrival of Mors Umber. All of this on top of the fact that Wyman Manderly is serving up Frey pie to the Bolton host and is ready to turn on the Boltons from the inside out, not counting the Manderly men in the Frey vanguard.

Stannis is in a much better position to be not dead...
 

Cowabungaa

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Silvanus said:
Azure-Supernova said:
The lack of Jon Connington and (f)Aegon.
This is potentially even more significant than it seems; without (f)Aegon, Varys' motivation is entirely different, too. He's supporting a different candidate.

Pretty nonsensically, too: he sent an assassin after Daenerys in Season 2, after all. They made vague reference to an explanation in s5e9-- Tyrion speculates that Varys was secretly protecting her from afar-- but then it's just getting silly. Varys hired an assassin and then secretly (somehow) made sure his own assassin would fail?! Balls. D&D just didn't think of it.
It also completely threw the Dorne arc off, leading to the atrocity we've seen this season. It's actually my favourite part of the books by now, the brooding of the Martells and the plans they must've been cooking up for years now. Really looking forward to that read about that in Winds of Winter. But on the show? Absolutely ruined.

Azure-Supernova said:
Last I read Stannis is doing a hell of a lot better in the book. He's got the support of Flints, Norreys and Liddles, all of whom were fiercely loyal to Eddard and want to see Boltons out of Winterfell. Combine that with the added support from house Glover and Mormont and the arrival of Mors Umber. All of this on top of the fact that Wyman Manderly is serving up Frey pie to the Bolton host and is ready to turn on the Boltons from the inside out, not counting the Manderly men in the Frey vanguard.

Stannis is in a much better position to be not dead...
True, his army wasn't as pathetic as we've seen in the show, but in the books too we're seeing him getting even more bogged down than in the show. Not to mention Mellisandre slowly going into a "Oh god...am I wrong? Am I backing the wrong man?!" Yeah I'm pretty sure he's going down, and going down hard. He's too eager and stubborn.
 

BloatedGuppy

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RiseOfTheWhiteWolf said:
Personal highlight: "U want de bad pu$$y ;;)))))))"
Season 5 and the quality of the off-book writing summed up in a single sentence.

I'm happy for the people who still enjoy this garbage. You might also want to look into old episodes of Cop Rock and The Star Wars Holiday Special.
 

Azure-Supernova

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Cowabungaa said:
Azure-Supernova said:
Last I read Stannis is doing a hell of a lot better in the book. He's got the support of Flints, Norreys and Liddles, all of whom were fiercely loyal to Eddard and want to see Boltons out of Winterfell. Combine that with the added support from house Glover and Mormont and the arrival of Mors Umber. All of this on top of the fact that Wyman Manderly is serving up Frey pie to the Bolton host and is ready to turn on the Boltons from the inside out, not counting the Manderly men in the Frey vanguard.

Stannis is in a much better position to be not dead...
True, his army wasn't as pathetic as we've seen in the show, but in the books too we're seeing him getting even more bogged down than in the show. Not to mention Mellisandre slowly going into a "Oh god...am I wrong? Am I backing the wrong man?!" Yeah I'm pretty sure he's going down, and going down hard. He's too eager and stubborn.
I can see that. Mellisandre really is shifting her ideas of who the Prince that was Promised is. She looks into the fires for Azor Ahai and sees snow... like that isn't a big enough of a hint? But yeah, as much as the winter was killing Stannis' march I still didn't see it being that big of an obstacle. Whilst it would effectively leave him unable to capture Winterfell, the Boltons host doesn't seem that better off. They're occupying a husk, with patchwork reconstruction and several armies to feed. Ah Winds of Winter can't come soon enough...
 

Cowabungaa

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BloatedGuppy said:
RiseOfTheWhiteWolf said:
Personal highlight: "U want de bad pu$$y ;;)))))))"
Season 5 and the quality of the off-book writing summed up in a single sentence.

I'm happy for the people who still enjoy this garbage. You might also want to look into old episodes of Cop Rock and The Star Wars Holiday Special.
Come now, that's a little too harsh. It's definitely noticeable that mister Martin isn't writing for this season, there's plotholes and terrible dialogue up the wazoo. But there's definitely some good stuff still to be found.
 

Silvanus

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Somekindofgold said:
Stannis in the books is still my King, but in the show I now back Euron, because there is absolutely no way they can butcher him. He's already pure evil so they dont have to sacrifice anything to make him look bad in comparison to their waifu Dany. All they have to do is get a good actor for him, one that can do charismatic evil, and we're golden.
Well, they could simply write him out, and have Balon not die.

Anywho, now I know how E10 goes... does this mean Bolton will win the Battle of Ice in the book, too? They've made drastic changes in the show, but surely not an entire battle, right?
 

Somekindofgold

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Cowabungaa said:
Oh come now, that moment wasn't that bad. It's pretty much happening in the book too, except through Ramsay and not Brienne. Kinda happy Brienne did it, though her "gee wiz this is a coincidence" appearance is kinda silly. But he was fucked anyway.
I have no problem with Stannis dying, my problem is that the scene of Stannis' death was the culmination of seasons of D&D abusing the character and utterly destroying all of the nuance and characterization he had in the books.

THEY DIDNT EVEN SHOW A BATTLE! Stannis motherfucking Baratheon, the only fucker in this entire series who could make some kind of good ruler, the only contender who marched to defend the seven kingdoms from the greater enemy, the one man who realized that it wasnt about the throne, it was about the realm, is killed and he doesnt even get a final battle. That moment when the Boltons crest the hill and he smiled that grim, cynical smile and drew his sword? I knew he was going to die then, outnumbered and leading a weary army, and I was okay with it because Stannis was going to go down swinging. He was going to die on his feet with a sword in his hand fighting to free the north from the Bolton scum, and they skip it so we can watch Brienne the incompetent idiot and Pod the Rod execute him as he lays there dying? no that is not okay. He deserved better than that.

But nooooo gotta save that fucking money so we can spend it on terrible CGI dragons and a Dornish story that defines the words 'vestigial' and 'pathetic'.

I havent been this mad at a show before, and Henry Blake was my favorite MASH character.
 
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thejboy88 said:
If you still support the guy, then frankly, I just give up on you. Because as far as I'm concerned, he doesn't deserve to rule. Hell, catch me at my most angry, and I'll tell you flat-out that he doesn't even deserve to LIVE anymore.
It's not a question of "deserve" or not, it never has been. While one could argue politics is a factor, Stannis is the legitimate heir to the throne in the line of succession (on the basis that Joffrey and Tommen are not Robert's children by blood).

Why was burning Shireen any worse than burning any other people? He burned Mance Rayder alive, but that wasn't sickening enough? (Didn't Mance have King's blood in him?) One of his earliest scenes has him burning people at the stake on a night-time beach with a crowd of onlookers.

Anyway, the scene was great, and inevitable. It was horrific, tragic and shocking. We saw his wife's fanaticism give way to maternal instincts at the end, he stood lockjawed, staring. His army would have perished without a magical ace-up-the-sleeve, he did what he had to. It is a little shortsighted tho. The single-most important duty of a monarch is to ensure the line of succession, and he just sent his up in smoke. He has no other children, legitimate or otherwise, so even if he did become King, his house would reign for only one generation.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Cowabungaa said:
Come now, that's a little too harsh. It's definitely noticeable that mister Martin isn't writing for this season, there's plotholes and terrible dialogue up the wazoo. But there's definitely some good stuff still to be found.
I'm salty.

I'm also completely unable to make arguments in support of a great many of the off-book changes that were made. Usually you can point to something and say "These being different mediums, and this being a slightly different translation of the source material, I can see that they made this choice because..."

Such as giving a major character extra things to do during a long season. This is how we end up with the hilariously poorly written Karl the Fookin' Legend Tanner, for instance. But then we have shit like...

1. No Pink Letter. Why does the Pink Letter matter? The Pink Letter is what provokes Jon into marching SOUTH and taking a wildling army with him to bring justice to Ramsay Snow. He breaks his vows and is determined to deplete the Watch of men at a crucial time. Without the Pink Letter, they're just killing him for bringing the Wildlings across. So why did they open the fucking gate for him in the previous episode, then? And if the Shaggy Dog rape of Sansa wasn't to "villain-up" Ramsay to make the Pink Letter hit harder, what was it FOR exactly?

2. Dorne and the Sand Snakes. We lose Arianne, we lose Quentyn, we lose "Fire and Blood", we lose the sub-plot to crown Myrcella (as due to Dornish primogeniture she is next in line for the crown, not Tommen). In its place we get the traveling road show of Jaime and Bronn, three absolutely gutted Sand Snakes that are horribly acted and scripted (and literally play paddy-cake in their jail cell). A Doran who does absolutely nothing and has no plans. A suddenly murderous Ellaria despite it being a complete reversal of her character from last season. And a ship sailing off with the sole heir of Dorne on it, now guaranteed to be murdered, likely triggering a succession crisis. Who came up with this plot? Children? What was the point of it?

3. We got an EXCESSIVE amount of Theon torture scenes in previous seasons, ostensibly to slowly build the myth of Ramsay Snow/Bolton, the horror of his existence of Reek, all to make his eventual casting off of the identity more powerful. Instead, Sansa is plopped into his story line and utterly hijacks it to "give her something to do". The thing she is given to do is "getting raped", after which she just sort of arbitrarily mopes around the castle a bit before the two of them abruptly kill a completely worthless ancillary character and jump off the battlements. Which, due to the absence of the winter blizzard that drove much of the plot in the novels, looks like suicide. Awesome!

4. Going back a bit, but what exactly was the purpose of the Jeyne/Talissa swap? What did we gain by that? Talissa was a complete anachronism, she stood out like a sore thumb. The way she was written and her personality in general actually under-wrote and diminished the challlenges other female characters faced and the ways they were restrained in this society by their gender...most principally Sansa, Brienne and Cersei. And what did we gain, for making that change? What did "Talissa" do that Jeyne Westerling could not have done? What was the point?

5. Jon drags the Wildling Army he just rescued from the coastal city of Hardhome up to the Gates of Castle Black and asks to be let in. Check out this map:


Note the position of Castle Black, and of Hardhome. Remember he rescued them in ships.

Also remember they did not change the geography for the show. They publish Atlases and puzzle-maps of Westeros that look exactly like this. Now imagine how fucking lazy you have to be to write a scene like that. It's a little thing, but it's so preposterous it totally shatters your immersion.

6. By the same token, in last night's episode we have two armies clashing. One vastly outnumbers the other and has cavalry. Stannis is in the front rank when his tiny army is enveloped, on an open field. A scene or two later, he's staggering around in a woodland glade (??). All sounds of fighting have stopped (??) and there are only a couple of live men even on the scene (??). This is the kind of hilarious/galling continuity error that had people rolling in the aisles at the end of ME3. It's equally unforgivable here. Moreso even, given questions of budget and audience scale.

Put this up alongside any truly good television, like Breaking Bad or The Sopranos or The Wire or even moderately good television like Daredevil or House of Cards and Game of Thrones looks absolutely awful. It used to be a "good show" in the way middle seasons of Walking Dead were "good". Like...they were alright. Very flawed, but with some fantastic standout moments. Game of Thrones gave us Hardhome this year, which was fantastic. The other 9.5 hours saw me frequently asking aloud "What the fuck am I watching". The writers for the show are *horrible*. They have been ENTIRELY reliant on Martin's material. Think about the above. Think about Karl Tanner. Or Ros the prostitute, who existed for no reason other than to be brutally murdered by Joffrey because (??). Think about S2 Dany and the "where are my dragons" meme that insufferable Qarth storyline spawned. How well do you see these writers doing without anything but their own material to draw from. Imagine an entire season of Dorne and "de bad pussy" quality.

Now tell me you wouldn't rather watch Cop Rock. It has cops, and they are given to rock.
 
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My biggest gripe with the show, is strangely not the rapes, incests, murders, beheadings, tortures or sacrificial pyres. It's Dany's and Cersei's eyebrows. Their eyebrows don't match their hair and it's all I can think of when either are on screen. All I can think is "That's not their real hair colour.", which makes me wonder why they bother with the wigs at all. Either leave them brunette/black, or match the eyebrows to the hair. It's hard to watch :-\