Game of Thrones Writer Inspired by Breaking Bad's Evil Protagonist

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I disagree with you. And while you are welcome to your opinion you don't seem to know what Deus ex machina means, or you don't got what happened in the story.
A Deus ex machina means that a conflict is solved by either sudden Events, which come out of nowhere, or an external power, like a god or something.
Neither of your examples is a conflict being solved.
Besides, Stannis attack on Kings Landing wasn't sudden at all. It was what the whole second Book, or season, was all about.
The Red Wedding was a sudden Event, but it wasn't a solution to a conflict either. It didn't came out of nowhere too, you could tell that something was about to happen. You didn't guess what it was, but you can't tell me you didn't expect anything extrordinary to happen at this wedding.
You know what that kind of thing is called? A Twist.
Neither of those qualify as Deus ex machina. You're welcome to your opinion of not liking his work, but please educate yourself before you start throwing terms around without knowing what they mean.

I should have been clearer, so here we go:

Stannis attack on King's Landing: Idiot Ball. "Hey, let us sail our fragile ships into the harbor area where siege weapons can leisurely destroy them". Even without Tyrion's cunning and tricks that's a stupid strategy, especially when coming from the guy that is constantly propped up as one of the best and most careful commanders in Westeros.
It also doubles as Deus Ex Machina because Tywin's host shows up at just the right hour to repel the attack (granted, this is partially dramatic effect) and even in universe a forced march from Riverrun to King's Landing shouldn't be that quick, given that only a few days seems to have passed from his departure from the siege of Riverrun. We also have Tyrion suddenly becoming a super-warrior (a sort of deus ex machina), whereas the books prior have established that he can barely wield a weapon he is suddenly cutting down knights in open combat.

The Red Wedding: Idiot ball. Do I really need to spell out why Robb suddenly seems to have lost all his wit and that everyone around him seems to have found a massive shipment of idiot balls to carry around? I appreciate the twist, but the whole chapter was so hamfistedly written that I almost felt like throwing the book away with great force.

For those interested in further reasons why I feel Martin is a mediocre writer, I think Film Crit Hulk says it better than I do:On Feast For Crows [http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/07/11/hulk-read-a-book-exactly-why-a-feast-for-crows-a-terrible-waste-of-1000-pages/] On Dance With Dragons [http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/09/06/hulk-read-another-book-why-a-dance-with-dragons-both-a-vast-improvement-and-yet-utter-proof-the-books-will-never-be-good-again/]

 

[DugMachine]

I don't know... Ramsay Bolton is pretty damn evil. As is Joffrey, Tywin etc. And honestly the more this season progresses the more I feel for Walt again. He's still a gigantic douche that caused all this himself but I think he genuinely wanted to remove him self from the criminal life but now he can't. He has lost his family forever and gotten Hank killed, all because of his own actions.

 

[LordMonty]

It is at times like these that I get confirmation of my prejudice that Martin is a mediocre writer with an excellent imagination and world building skill. Either that or simply a sadistic man who gets off on letting bad things happen to good people in his works. Or maybe both.

It would be easier to be smug about this if I wasn't waiting so eagerly for Winds of Winter.

I actually think Martin should try and do a coalition with another writer. Martin and they sit down every time with Martin just emptying his brain of ideas, plots, characters, developments and the universe with the other party focusing on putting it together in a cohesive narrative.

On top of that when Martin (inevitably but certainly unfortunately) passes there will be a writer to pick up that torch and have an understanding as to where to take the world of Westeros.

One can dream...

And at the same time it's great to see writers feeding off each other as I feel that can lead to some truly complex and amazing stories/settings/characters.

He should team up with Terry Pratchett, I'd read that.

Stop reading my mind, i'm just reading 'The long earth' at the moment which is Pratchett and Baxter(loving it). No idea what we'd get but it'd probally blow my mind.

 

[Teoes]

For those interested in further reasons why I feel Martin is a mediocre writer, I think Film Crit Hulk says it better than I do:On Feast For Crows [http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/07/11/hulk-read-a-book-exactly-why-a-feast-for-crows-a-terrible-waste-of-1000-pages/] On Dance With Dragons [http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/09/06/hulk-read-another-book-why-a-dance-with-dragons-both-a-vast-improvement-and-yet-utter-proof-the-books-will-never-be-good-again/]

I would love to read someone's opinions on those books, but there's no way I'm slogging through walls of all-caps in that stupid Hulk gimmick. Do you know if the same points are made elsewhere in a form more easily read?

 

[TsunamiWombat]

Since when was Walt evil? Wasn't he doing all of this to raise money for his family? Hasn't he avoided killing in the past?

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I would love to read someone's opinions on those books, but there's no way I'm slogging through walls of all-caps in that stupid Hulk gimmick. Do you know if the same points are made elsewhere in a form more easily read?

No idea, but it wouldn't surprise me. The quick summary is that Martin doesn't seem to understand proper pacing, fails to resolve his plots in a satisfactory manner and often seems to confuse shock value with emotional investment. If you can't get through the Hulk-gimmick you could just look around for someone that presents the same general ideas.

 

[Makabriel]

[

I totally agree. As I said, my problem is that he feels like a mediocre writer with an excellent imagination. The setting, the characters and the events are all fascinating and captivating. The problem is that more often than not you have to see past the plodding, drawn out pacing, the "author masturbation"-sections of sex or naked women thrown in for little reason other than that Martin seemed like he was getting horny and had to rub one out or the never ending sections of Martin telling you the entire menu of a feast or describing individual people passing by on a street. I know some people love details like, but for me it makes for a series of books that at times are unbearably slow.

There's actually more sex in the TV series than there is in the books. It's not as prominent as you think it is.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

There's actually more sex in the TV series than there is in the books. It's not as prominent as you think it is.

Considering that the series throws in at least 2 sex/nude women scenes per episode, I am not surprised. The problem isn't really whatever or not there's lots of sex, it is that whenever it shows up (and sex or the shape of a woman's body/breasts shows up about once a chapter, minimum) it often feels jarringly out of place. As Film Crit Hulk says: The prose and tone takes a wrong turn and changes into something that sounds more at home in a teenagers slash-fic than in the solid prose that Martin otherwise exhibits.

The fact that I, and many others, might think there's more sex then there is is the entire problem. Because it just shows that we register it because it takes us out of our "groove" when reading those particular parts. Even if they aren't prominent, they are indicative of poor writing since they seem to be what people remember.

 

[Tactical Pause]

But... but... Walt isn't evil...

I mean, I get that he's not exactly a good person (doesn't prevent me from rooting for him), but evil?

Spoiler

Surely after the end of the last episode, nobody can really say he's downright evil. I know a lot of people dislike him, but what he did was pretty much the exact opposite of evil.

 

[Angelous Wang]

Dany is tied with Jon Snow with the greatest odds of surviving the series. My favorite character (Cersei) still lives simply because George actively hates his readership's opinions.

George said he is fan of the bitter sweat ending.

With that in mind I expect Jon Snow to survive all the way to the end and do everything big and prophesied (aka becoming the champion of the fire god and defeating the white walkers with the sword of dawn ... possibly even commanding Dragons assuming that theory of him being half Targaryen is true).

And then right near the end of the series once he has saved everyone and ensured the safety of the world ... BAM dead.

Also have you read the books, because

Spoiler: A Dance With Dragons

Jon Snow is already dead.

And that is not confirmed, the book made it look that way, but it was never 100% confirmed.

 

[chikusho]

I should have been clearer, so here we go:

Stannis attack on King's Landing: Idiot Ball. "Hey, let us sail our fragile ships into the harbor area where siege weapons can leisurely destroy them". Even without Tyrion's cunning and tricks that's a stupid strategy, especially when coming from the guy that is constantly propped up as one of the best and most careful commanders in Westeros.
It also doubles as Deus Ex Machina because Tywin's host shows up at just the right hour to repel the attack (granted, this is partially dramatic effect) and even in universe a forced march from Riverrun to King's Landing shouldn't be that quick, given that only a few days seems to have passed from his departure from the siege of Riverrun. We also have Tyrion suddenly becoming a super-warrior (a sort of deus ex machina), whereas the books prior have established that he can barely wield a weapon he is suddenly cutting down knights in open combat.

Stannis sails his massive fleet into the harbor area because he knows his fleet will outmatch Joffreys. Also, it's quite clearly explained that the Mud Gate is the easiest point of entry into the city. Siege weapons are expected and probably entered into the calculated acceptable losses of a city sacking. Finally, he needs to take the city quickly, so that he can defend it from the incoming Lannister host that Tywin is leading.

It's not an "Idiot ball" to charge a known weak spot with a superior force at an opportune time.
Also, noteworthy, Stannis had no reason to expect that he would be attacked by enormous quantities of wildfire. Noone knew there were so much of the stuff still around.


Deus ex Machina = "seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved, with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina

Tywin abandoning the war against the north in order to march his army back to kings landing is not a "seemingly unsolvable problem", nor is it contrived, unexpected, a new event, ability or object.
You say "that quick" as if you know how quick it was. Apparently, it was quick enough, or long enough, to arrive at just the right time.

The Red Wedding: Idiot ball. Do I really need to spell out why Robb suddenly seems to have lost all his wit and that everyone around him seems to have found a massive shipment of idiot balls to carry around? I appreciate the twist, but the whole chapter was so hamfistedly written that I almost felt like throwing the book away with great force.

For those interested in further reasons why I feel Martin is a mediocre writer, I think Film Crit Hulk says it better than I do:On Feast For Crows [http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/07/11/hulk-read-a-book-exactly-why-a-feast-for-crows-a-terrible-waste-of-1000-pages/] On Dance With Dragons [http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/09/06/hulk-read-another-book-why-a-dance-with-dragons-both-a-vast-improvement-and-yet-utter-proof-the-books-will-never-be-good-again/]

Granted, I haven't read that far into the books, but the red wedding makes perfect sense within the context of the world. It's foreshadowed throughout the entire series up until that point, and there are perfectly reasonable explanations for everything that takes place in that chapter.

 

[Makabriel]

Considering that the series throws in at least 2 sex/nude women scenes per episode, I am not surprised. The problem isn't really whatever or not there's lots of sex, it is that whenever it shows up (and sex or the shape of a woman's body/breasts shows up about once a chapter, minimum) it often feels jarringly out of place. As Film Crit Hulk says: The prose and tone takes a wrong turn and changes into something that sounds more at home in a teenagers slash-fic than in the solid prose that Martin otherwise exhibits.

The fact that I, and many others, might think there's more sex then there is is the entire problem. Because it just shows that we register it because it takes us out of our "groove" when reading those particular parts. Even if they aren't prominent, they are indicative of poor writing since they seem to be what people remember.

Just to clear the air, I understand your point of view. I can see where you're coming from.

You can't judge it from the HBO show though... It's a cable channel it's what they do, heh. I agree that there are moments in the book where it is mentioned frequently as well, but it is in the tone of the story. I never was pulled out of the story by the mention of nudity or sex or whatever.

I dunno, I suppose after reading things like Laura Hamilton, or even Anne Rice.. the mention of nudity in a book just doesn't jar me as much as someone else.

 

[Ishal]

I'm really surprised by how many people that actually like the Starks, wait... no I'm not.

It's not out of sadism that Martin does this... he might enjoy people having the reactions they do, but that isn't why. It's all part of the trope subversion. In pretty much every other story a family like the Starks walks around with plot armor and does things that would get you killed in reality. Rob Stark and his father got what was coming. Nobody is safe walking around in Westeros with a +10 morality shield and a sense of ahem* "honor".

OT: Not surprising, good guys are becoming too good, and by extension unrelatable. Very few people are paradigms of humanity and virtue, its way easier to relate to an antihero or villain than some paladin-esque hero.

 

[j0frenzy]

Thing I've learned today: a lot of people don't consider Walt outright evil. There's probably a good article about media distorting our views of morality.

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

Ya know, considering all the awful stuff Gregor Clegane does in the books, or is at least stated to have done, I think he may take home the prize. It must be said, though, that Vargo Hoat and his organization get an honorable mention.

 

[Tactical Pause]

Thing I've learned today: a lot of people don't consider Walt outright evil. There's probably a good article about media distorting our views of morality.

I see this a lot, and I'd be lying if I said it doesn't bug me that I have my morals questioned every time I point out that Walter White isn't evil. That's just silly.

As I said before, I don't think he's a good person, but in no way do I believe him to be evil. Evil suggests that he has no redeeming qualities, and/or does things for purely malicious reasons. As demonstrated in the latest episode (incidentally, the one a lot of people use as 'proof' of his evil), this is simply not true.

Spoiler: Breaking Bad Spoiler

I mean, he threw away any chance of his own son ever understanding his actions or forgiving him in the slightest, just so that his wife (who had just attacked him with a kitchen knife) could appear innocent in the eyes of the law. That's just not something an evil person does.

In short, hate him all you want, call him a terrible person, but 'evil' goes further, and simply does not apply to Walt.

And please don't suggest my morality is 'distorted', I find it rather offensive.

 

[Michael Kerig]

It is at times like these that I get confirmation of my prejudice that Martin is a mediocre writer with an excellent imagination and world building skill. Either that or simply a sadistic man who gets off on letting bad things happen to good people in his works. Or maybe both.

It would be easier to be smug about this if I wasn't waiting so eagerly for Winds of Winter.

I actually think Martin should try and do a coalition with another writer. Martin and they sit down every time with Martin just emptying his brain of ideas, plots, characters, developments and the universe with the other party focusing on putting it together in a cohesive narrative.

On top of that when Martin (inevitably but certainly unfortunately) passes there will be a writer to pick up that torch and have an understanding as to where to take the world of Westeros.

One can dream...

And at the same time it's great to see writers feeding off each other as I feel that can lead to some truly complex and amazing stories/settings/characters.

He should team up with Terry Pratchett, I'd read that.

While it would probably be a match made in heaven... Pratchett is in an unfortunate similar circumstance. What with him supposedly having suffered a stroke that was misdiagnosed as Alzheimer's.

There is -another- Pratchett who could step in though?

I think Neil Gaiman would probably be a better fit to Martin's bleakness of writing. And Gaiman and Pratchett have similar styles, it's just that Gaiman's always been the darker writer.

 

[Tactical Pause]

Hitler was good to his wife, too. Does that make him not evil?

That's an unfair comparison and you know it. Walt wasn't 'good to his wife', he essentially threw away everything he had worked for in order to bail her out.

As this argument has already reached the point where Walt is being likened to Hitler(!), I see no point in my continued participation.