GamerGate's Image Problem

[runic knight]

@runic knight: Yes, I linked to articles, that's true! People do that when articles clearly demonstrate their point. I linked to those particular ones because I knew perfectly well that the point was correct and you could not refute their contents and would instead engage in empty bluster, which in fact you have done.

As for Breitbart, it of course could not possibly be the case that you all are being suckered by yet another attempt to fabricate a mountain out of a molehill as has happened to you repeatedly from the outset, and I know perfectly well you'll keep telling yourself that, and will be ranting about "collusion" and "corruption" when the world greets Breibart's "revelations" with the collective yawn that greets pretty much everything from Breitbart, whose reputation vis a vis "journalistic integrity" is a punchline and whose knack for getting it wrong is almost unerring*.

But I get that you don't want to take my word for it. After all, I'm just some random dude who you're in the process of convincing yourself is an evil Social Justice Warrior from the Land of Tumblr scheming to keep you down with communistic conspiracies.

Here's perhaps a more useful weathervane for you. Notice how Moot has cracked down on the #GamerGate nonsense over on the 4chan forums? I don't think of him as a paragon of rectitude or anything, but one thing nobody should deny is that he's canny enough to sense which way the wind is blowing. A site whose founder was less canny would have been pretty much killed dead by the kiddie porn scandal that afflicted that community a few years back. If you have the penetrating intellect you clearly imagine yourself to have, you should be spending less time here jousting with me and more time having a serious think about why Moot's self-preservation instincts have kicked in once again regarding #GamerGate.

* Another sad thing about all this: as regards game journalism effectively rubber-stamping substandard Triple-A product, there really is an interesting conversation about journalistic standards to be had. Due to its genesis and all the peculiar obsessions that come with it, I've yet to see GG come within a country mile of that far more interesting topic, and it will never be able to do so now with any credibility. Time to move on.

I do wish you would quote properly even with just a -snip- in a quote tag, makes it easier to know when someone is talking to me.

Linking an article is nice, I do it myself. But when that is all you do and then start strutting around and clucking and openly insulting my intelligence, well, you can understand why I deflate your ego a little. But my point still stands, please, engage me and present your arguments in this case.

You dismiss Braitbart. I understand that, please, tell me something of value because at the end of that day " it isn't correct because my opinion is right" is still only you making an assertion of opinion as if it is fact, and ignoring actual discussion.

You are right I don't believe you. Not because of your politics though. I am an avid support of social justice myself, so I find your attempts to dismiss me as anything else offensive and dishonest. No, I don't believe you because you don't actually present an argument and instead keep trying to appeal to me emotionally about why you are right and I am wrong and with only your perpetual insistence of that being the case. I disagree, so you can take your patronizing attempt to paint me as something I am not and kindly try treating me like an individual human being and not merely a stock stereotype you seem to think I am.

Why do I care what Moot is doing and why does it matter in general? I am not some 4chan refuge here. I have been here a while, so my experience with and thus respect in moot is rather limited. You attempt to argue he is a weathervane and all I can reply with is "so what?" Aside from his own connections to parties involved in all of this (which would, as I am sure you are well aware, color his view and thus introduce a bias to his opinion at the very least), you are trying to make an appeal to authority here, which is a logical fallacy. You really shouldn't do that as it shows you don't actually have an argument.

So aside from a lack of argument, another lack of argument and a genuine appeal to authority fallacy, you mention the first hint of something relevant at the end. There IS a discussion to be had and in spite of your attempts to claim otherwise, it has been going on. It is what spurred the escapist and defy media to change it's policy after all. I am sorry you seem to unable to actually take the time to explore what gamergate really is and instead must resort to caricature and quite frankly insultingly generalization and tactics to try to convince me to abandon the whole thing.

I do have a question though, if the movement is so doomed, why are you trying to get me to leave it now? If it is doomed to fail and dissipates, it dissipates. End of story. I go back to being the same poster I always have and nothing changes. Unless it is some crime to have posted what I have posted in these forums talking about the topic, your "concern" that I leave the movement that you keep insisting is dying (in spite of evidence to the contrary I might add) comes off not as someone trying to help a neighbor not make a bad mistake but rather an intention attempt to be dishonest and misrepresent things in order to derail, distract, deflect or deprive it of supporters. Add to that the lack of arguments made in favor of emotionally manipulating appeals such as constantly declaring the movement is dying and calling me foolish, well, I begin to suspect you are not actually trying to have a conversation in good faith and that you have an agenda here.

On the plus side, this has revealed something a bit on topic at least. I see that one thing we must do in order to maintain validity is to not resort to emotional ploys or tactics. Considering how repulsive I find them here, I can't imagine getting them from other people would be very pleasant to people hearing about this topic. Hmm, maybe a FAQ list in the first page of the mega thread would help with things, as a sort of intro to help people assess for themselves the facts of things at the very least, and without the general overwhelming wall of replies questions get in that thread.

 

[Nikolaz72]

This discussion is on how GamerGate could improve their image

I know. As I said earlier, GamerGate cannot improve its "image," because it has a substance problem rather than an image problem. I take that substance problem to be germane to the topic, since it's useful if you're hoping to improve an "image" to actually be able to do so -- and since this speaks to the core purpose of the topic, I doubt you'll be able to really keep it out of subsequent debate -- but having made that point I'm perfectly happy to bow out and leave you to it.

I don't want to silence you, I just hope that we can keep the discussion level headed without becoming aggressive and insulting. We're the Escapist!

That being said, I respectfully disagree that we cannot improve our image. I think creating our own site to be the core of the movement rather than 4chan (Which has now been more replaced by the Escapist truth be told, but I don't like us using the Escapist due to the problems its causing Greg Tito in his circle of friends. Pretty grand fellow not silencing the discussion like the others.

Journalistic Integrity is an important issue. And to be quite honest I don't like the Journalist representing us on the issue either, but that's the thing about disorganized protest movements- everyone does their own thing and it is always chaotic until it is not.

I think an important step in improving the GamerGate image is organization.

As for the rightwing conservative tabloids thats been connected to the movement. Don't let it fool you, it's not conservative at heart. All kinds of ideologies exist under the umbrella of Gamergate. Were this about Mysoginy or Sexism I'd have been firmly on the side of those harrased, however the problem is that in this conflict 'both' sides have displayed harrassment and sexism to a degree, but one of them is corrupt and organized and the other seeks to root out corruption and is disorganized.

For a Left-wing Feminist such as myself, choosing as side in this wasn't easy, however after reading a lot of evidence against the likes of Kotaku and Polygon I stand rather firmly on the GamerGate side of things.

We've already accomplished a lot. We're airing the dirty laundry of the corrupt parts of the games media, showing which parts of the games media has been underrepresented and deserves more attention. Aswell as causing certain sites to review their ethics and policies.

We can accomplish -more-.

 

[runic knight]

Guys, would you please stay on topic? Throwing insults at eachother is not constructive and doesn't do anyone any good. This goes out mainly to bob and runic who I've ben following, but it could count towards anyone else aswell. This discussion is on how GamerGate could improve their image, not whether or not the one you're debating with is a 'Blind Shrimp' or a 'Mysoginwinstic Wig'. If you want to debate the people of gamersgate/quinnspiracy there is another megathread on the issue.

The Escapist is home to all of us, and there is room for all.

you are right, we are getting off topic here. I am sorry. My last post was also in process before I saw your reply.
As for improving the image, so far it seems that requires a word of mouth approach, since the media itself is too deeply involved to not be dishonest in their portrayal. And with a word of mouth approach, something not heavily filled with emotional language or hyperbole. No one likes insistence of importance.

Hmm, at best a general statement of what Gamergate is, what it wants, and what it does and does not condone might be nice, though few people want to push that for fear of the negatives associated in doing so, thus the validity of it would be dismissed by anyone looking for an excuse to dismiss such things with the same fervor of dismissing the individual statements of the same. This is a tricky beast to be sure.

 

[entelechy]

I'm sorry I guess I was not clear enough. Vivian James did not exist before August 22 2014 iirc. She was not talked about before because TFYC had not launched their fundraiser before this shitstorm started August 18 2014. It's kinda hard to create a character because your donations hit that reward tier when the fundraiser does not exist.

Again:
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/vivian-james

Wait, hold the phone. Did I just read that the color of Vivian James' clothes are a reference to a rape joke?

I don't even . . .

So, it turns out there is something that gamergate could do to improve its image without a name change or denouncing the sexists in their ranks. They could stop using this mascot, for one.

 

[Quadocky]

I'm sorry I guess I was not clear enough. Vivian James did not exist before August 22 2014 iirc. She was not talked about before because TFYC had not launched their fundraiser before this shitstorm started August 18 2014. It's kinda hard to create a character because your donations hit that reward tier when the fundraiser does not exist.

Again:
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/vivian-james

Wait, hold the phone. Did I just read that the color of Vivian James' clothes are a reference to a rape joke?

I don't even . . .

So, it turns out there is something that gamergate could do to improve its image without a name change or denouncing the sexists in their ranks. They could stop using this mascot, for one.

Would you mind posting the info about that? This I gotta see.

 

[Dragon Rage]

Wait, hold the phone. Did I just read that the color of Vivian James' clothes are a reference to a rape joke?

Specifically they're a reference to a 4chan meme wherein Piccolo, a character from Dragon Ball Z, has anal sex with Vegeta, another character from Dragon Ball Z.

So not only is this an act between two men, but it's between two men in a show wherein the character receiving sex is actually an order of magnitude more powerful than the one giving it. By the show's own logic, it would be impossible for Piccolo to subdue Vegeta.

/explaining the joke

 

[runic knight]

I'm sorry I guess I was not clear enough. Vivian James did not exist before August 22 2014 iirc. She was not talked about before because TFYC had not launched their fundraiser before this shitstorm started August 18 2014. It's kinda hard to create a character because your donations hit that reward tier when the fundraiser does not exist.

Again:
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/vivian-james

Wait, hold the phone. Did I just read that the color of Vivian James' clothes are a reference to a rape joke?

I don't even . . .

So, it turns out there is something that gamergate could do to improve its image without a name change or denouncing the sexists in their ranks. They could stop using this mascot, for one.

Would you mind posting the info about that? This I gotta see.

It is a reference to gay DBZ anime sex, if memory serves. Also, last I checked, Vivian was a mascot made for TFYC and represents the movement in so far as being created out of protest.

 

[generals3]

She puts out a video asking if games are sexist and doesn't even answer the fucking question. Strawmen, cherry-picking, and name-calling aren't facts.

She's a propagandist and a bunch of people fell for it.

Actually she did address it somewhat. She for instance said: since the vast majority of gamers playing these games are men and men tend to like sexy women and play as men it's normal the games feature sexy women and male protagonists. And she also added there are plenty of games which show women differently.

And all the other points she addressed weren't strawmen, these were all arguments actually used.

The only thing that she did wrong was making it so short which means the "analysis" couldn't be anything more than very shallow.

But there is one thing that she brought up and that I think those pseudo armchair socio-psychologists need to do; go on the field and talk to gamers. Let's not forget that when you play a game, like let's say CoD, you may always have a troll or idiot but you also have 30-40 other players who say nothing in the chat or do nothing wrong. Yet the modern trend seems to be to totally ignore that vast majority and act as if that tiny minority represents "gamers". What the hell? Might as well pretend ISIS represents all muslims.

 

[runic knight]

It's a fair question. Why am I trying to get anyone to leave the "movement"? Frankly I don't believe there is a "movement." I believe there's a hashtag that's been thoroughly implicated in some pretty low, sorry, and even criminal shit -- whatever the sins of Zoe Quinn or gaming journalism may or may not be -- and given that that it is simply a brand that cannot be rescued, period. Associating yourself with it can only tank your credibility. Whether or not that's fair, I simply think it's the truth.

I also think you've come to an incredibly sorry pass if Milo on Breitbart is the last significant ally you can dredge up -- given his demonstrated attitude toward gamers in general and that site's journalistic standing if you genuinely want to engage in a campaign for journalistic ethics -- and it kind of beggars belief that so many of you can't see it. Ultimately I don't dismiss the #GamerGaters as evil or subhuman or terrorists, but that kind of thing is proof positive to me of how utterly wrong-headed and futile the whole exercise is.

I made a reply and it was eaten...
Time for take two.

I disagree that the movement is permenantly tainted. To make that claim would be to claim that all christians are permanently tainted as baby-murderers, wife beaters or worse described in the bible itself. Or to make a generalization that all liberals are like Alex Jones or all conservatives are like Glenn beck. It is the mindset of the lazy or the dishonest to cling to that sort of thinking and I don't think they were going to be able to have their minds changed regardless what we do, so I don't think that particular subset was what the thread was abound.

as for Milo and the rest, you seem very determined to try to attack their credibility but I honestly fail to see why. They are a conservative rag with some crazy ideas, I know that much, but so what? So far the extent of your reasoning is "I don't like them" which is noted but not really worth something. Right now they are one of the few sites willing to cover the story and invest actual investigation into it. Furthermore, the gamergate thing seems to pride itself on diversity considering how many of its members used the #notyourshield tag to try to stop journalists from dismissing their identity. The movement, (regardless if you dislike the term, it is a concentrated effort towards a general goal by a good chunk of people) is made of a lot of different types of people, so I would be hesitant to try to distance myself from a political ideology simply for a "I dislike them and they hurt your credibility for it" claim. When picking between having no media representation and having less then ideal, I would at least have the less then ideal unless there was something genuinely disconcerting about it. Being a conservatively slanted news site is not enough for that warning to go on I think.

 

[entelechy]

Wait, hold the phone. Did I just read that the color of Vivian James' clothes are a reference to a rape joke?

Specifically they're a reference to a 4chan meme wherein Piccolo, a character from Dragon Ball Z, has anal sex with Vegeta, another character from Dragon Ball Z.

So not only is this an act between two men, but it's between two men in a show wherein the character receiving sex is actually an order of magnitude more powerful than the one giving it. By the show's own logic, it would be impossible for Piccolo to subdue Vegeta.

/explaining the joke

I suppose it's possible that knowyourmeme is in error, but they do describe it [http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/piccolo-dick] as "Piccolo anally raping Vegeta."

 

[Kimozabi]

Kellee Santiago invests in Polytron and stands to gain financially from the sales of Fez in its first year.
In 2011, Kellee Santiago becomes the Jury chair of IndieCade 2011.
The Jury chair works closely together with every juror when they vote for winners.
In 2011, Fez wins 2 IndieCade awards, 1 of the being the biggest of them all.

The Jury chair's investment in Fez is disclosed to absolutely nobody

Anybody knowing about this and still claiming that everything is about Zoe Quinn is directly contributing to the image problem.
Just putting that out there.
If you are against the movement and you yourself are unwilling to move past Zoe Quinn, you're one of the reasons why it has such a bad name.

 

[Dragon Rage]

I suppose it's possible that knowyourmeme is in error, but they do describe it [http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/piccolo-dick] as "Piccolo anally raping Vegeta."

It could be interpreted either way, really. I believe that the consensual sex angle makes more sense given the characters, but that's just me.

 

[runic knight]

Wait, hold the phone. Did I just read that the color of Vivian James' clothes are a reference to a rape joke?

Specifically they're a reference to a 4chan meme wherein Piccolo, a character from Dragon Ball Z, has anal sex with Vegeta, another character from Dragon Ball Z.

So not only is this an act between two men, but it's between two men in a show wherein the character receiving sex is actually an order of magnitude more powerful than the one giving it. By the show's own logic, it would be impossible for Piccolo to subdue Vegeta.

/explaining the joke

I suppose it's possible that knowyourmeme is in error, but they do describe it [http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/piccolo-dick] as "Piccolo anally raping Vegeta."

I thought it was some very poorly rendered porn video made gif. If that is the case though, perhaps they use the word "rape" as liberally as the porn industry does in describing videos? How many porn titles have the word "rape" in the title or description and use that to describe rough sex as opposed to non-consensual sex?

I'll be honest on this one, I don't know.

 

[Nikolaz72]

Might as well pretend ISIS represents all muslims.

Many do, many do.

-----------------------------------

It's my main problem with those that dismiss the entire movement due to a fringe conservative mysoginists, the vast majority of us are just regular gamers, and out of all the issues in the movement none of them has anything to do with people being conservative, socialist or liberalists. Every ideology can more or less agree on these various issues, corruption is always bad. It doesn't matter whether you're leftwing or rightwing.

The unfortunate fact is that all that journalists on various mainstream sites are afraid from speaking out due to the repercussions such as being blacklisted or fired (A Journalist from Kotaku admitted to that) means conservative talkpieces that are traditionally against those traditionally liberalistic sites will end up being the only platforms available from which to critisize them.

Once the movement gets properly going, more journalists gets fired for slipups, more of them will speak out about the corruption in the industry. The Breitbart journalist has yet to reveal the email discussions on 'Death to All Gamers' and 'Censorship'. It will be interesting to see what happens when he does, and I hope the insider-source doesn't loose her career over this.

We will overcome the stigma, the corrupt games media will pay for their mistake.. Literally, as people and ad-revenue abandon their sites. In favour of non conspiratory-non corrupt websites like http://www.escapistmagazine.com. Seriously guys, visit that site, give them attention, they deserve it!

 

[Velventian]

Been a gamer for 23+ years. At the end of the day, this entire thing started because a woman had sex with someone, and people got angry. In my mind, that's always going to be what I associate Gamer Gate with, and all the negative connotations that comes with it (as well as the stupid name, Gamer Gate? Seriously? It's fucking video games for christ's sake).

A gross simplification perhaps? Maybe, but I find a movement is only worth as much as what sparked it in the first place, and anything that uses the term SJW unironically isn't something I want to associate with, or be associated with.

The American revolution was basically sparked by a bunch of people throwing tea into the harbor... What sparks a movement and the movement itself are in many cases 2 very different things

 

[Velventian]

As a neutral observer, one thing that might help is avoiding mentioning Anita Sarkeesian in the context of GamerGame. I've seen her name crop up quite a bit when browsing the super GamerGate thread (old or new), she's even appeared in the banners some people have made, and yet as far as I can see she has nothing to do with this other than being another feminist a lot of people here don't like. Regardless of people's intentions, it does give the impression that they have an axe to grind over feminism rather than journalistic integrity.

There was an article about it somewhere, sure we may keep talking about her but its the other side that keeps dragging her into the spotlight. Just look what happened with @neros atricle.
Action: Article about secret email group between devs (no mention of anita)
Reaction: Kotaku Article "ANITA RECEIVED BOMB THREAT 6 MONTHS AGO"

When ever they run out of answers they pull up anita or zq as a shield to deflect any attacks.

 

[runic knight]

I disagree that the movement is permenantly tainted. To make that claim would be to claim that all christians are permanently tainted as baby-murderers, wife beaters or worse described in the bible itself.

Being the dupe of a pissed-off ex, which effectively was the genesis point for GG, does not make you the equivalent of the early Christians, sorry. And insisting that You're Not Like the Few Bad Apples in a context where the "movement" you're supporting has thoroughly implicated itself in deceit and harasment just doesn't work. It's like trying to join the KKK and claiming you were just there because you admire the aesthetic purity and theological irony of a burning cross. Expecting people to believe you is just unrealistic at a certain point, and you all were at that point weeks ago.

as for Milo and the rest, you seem very determined to try to attack their credibility but I honestly fail to see why. They are a conservative rag with some crazy ideas, I know that much, but so what?

They're not "a conservative rag with some crazy ideas." They're a conservative rag with literally less journalistic credibility than Faux News or The Drudge Report. If you can't see the relevance of that to staking your hopes on their output to your campaign for ethics in journalism, there's nothing more I can do to help you. It's basically like declaring a crusade against pedophilia and then allying yourself with NAMBLA because one of their newsletters has some content that seems momentarily useful.

My point was something that Velventian put far more eloquently, what sparked an event does not have to forever define it. also I find it interesting you say "being the dupe of" someone who;s claims have been verified on at least two accounts and not disproven on any of the rest.

The KKK has a defined goal of racial purity or some such nonsense but that goal there? That is what people are against in the KKK. Gamergate is being called something that is not its actual goal and this people are against an aspect thatdoesn't define the movement like hatred and racism actually defines the KKK, there is a difference there. Gamergate's goal is against journalistic corruption, and is being written off by people, such as yourself, for being for harassment when it is not.

As for milo, you mentioned you dislike him, you keep mentioning it, but you never actually back it up beyond your assertions that it is bad. You'll forgive me if between that and your insistence that I am "too far gone" that I largely dismiss your concerns on that part from here on.