Games are art. Present your case!

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RhombusHatesYou

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SimuLord said:
News flash: Roger Ebert is still right. The art fails to qualify as gameplay and the gameplay fails to qualify as art---never the twain shall meet.
Sure... if you want to take the attitude that gameplay in itself is not an artform (if only a recently emergent one).

If you want to get exclusive and reductionist, what is film except glorified recorded theatre? Answer me that, Mr Clever Bloody Ebert. What's that? It developed new skills that took artistic expression in new directions? You don't say! I bet game developers have never thought of doing something like that.
 

Xan Krieger

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This game will make you feel cold in an 80 degree room
If you don't see it look in the lower left.

Portrait of a beautiful woman
In The Shadow of A Red Moon
the way the red reflects onto the ship is quite an interesting effect.

The Written Word
 

Citrus

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At the end of the day, art is entirely subjective. If it appeals to your senses and/or strikes an emotional chord, it's art. There will never be a definitive way to decide collectively what is and what is not art, because the concept of art is inherently a matter of opinion.

I am allowed to think video games are art just as I am allowed to think that a stack of bricks with a Slinky on top of them is not art. The important thing to remember is that you can't expect everybody to agree with you.
 

starwarsgeek

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Why does one need to argue with specific examples? Painting, drawing, sculpting, writting, cinematography, and composing music are all commonly accepted as artforms; however, the medium of games uses all of these.

digital painting/drawing (2D games)
digital sculpting (3D models)
cinematography (pre-rendered cutscenes, fixed camera angles, attack animations in some jrpgs)
music and writting (most games)

A medium composed of existing artforms must logically be an artform on its own.
 

SimuLord

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RhomCo said:
SimuLord said:
News flash: Roger Ebert is still right. The art fails to qualify as gameplay and the gameplay fails to qualify as art---never the twain shall meet.
Sure... if you want to take the attitude that gameplay in itself is not an artform (if only a recently emergent one).

If you want to get exclusive and reductionist, what is film except glorified recorded theatre? Answer me that, Mr Clever Bloody Ebert. What's that? It developed new skills that took artistic expression in new directions? You don't say! I bet game developers have never thought of doing something like that.
And I suppose next you'll be saying the same thing about radio drama (which I executive-produce out here in the Wasteland)? What my team does is art (albeit only thanks to our director, who has more talent than I do at coaxing brilliance from voice actors). What game developers do is gameplay. Never the twain shall meet.
 

shadow skill

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SimuLord said:
News flash: Roger Ebert is still right. The art fails to qualify as gameplay and the gameplay fails to qualify as art---never the twain shall meet.

Games can have art in them, but it's usually in the form of a cutscene (as in the Metal Gear Solid series) or something that, while interesting and arguably artistic, fails miserably as an actual game (Heavy Rain). Games having art does not mean they are art. The two concepts are, until further notice, mutually exclusive (and thank the gods. I can't stand arthouse-nerd games.)
Ebert is an idiot, interface design (which is what gameplay is.) has always been both an art and a science just like advertising. As someone who actually has to design interfaces on occasion I can tell you that this man neither understands the technology nor the skill involved in designing a piece of software that people want to use whether it be a game or a web browser.

SimuLord said:
RhomCo said:
SimuLord said:
News flash: Roger Ebert is still right. The art fails to qualify as gameplay and the gameplay fails to qualify as art---never the twain shall meet.
Sure... if you want to take the attitude that gameplay in itself is not an artform (if only a recently emergent one).

If you want to get exclusive and reductionist, what is film except glorified recorded theatre? Answer me that, Mr Clever Bloody Ebert. What's that? It developed new skills that took artistic expression in new directions? You don't say! I bet game developers have never thought of doing something like that.
And I suppose next you'll be saying the same thing about radio drama (which I executive-produce out here in the Wasteland)? What my team does is art (albeit only thanks to our director, who has more talent than I do at coaxing brilliance from voice actors). What game developers do is gameplay. Never the twain shall meet.
Spoken like someone who has no clue what he is talking about.
 

Altorin

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Games are an artistic medium. There isn't really a case to be made.. You start with nothing, and you end with something that people can experience, and enjoy.
 

Sylocat

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Nov 13, 2007
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BioShock, plain and simple.

There's also No More Heroes, Final Fantasy VI... the list goes on.
 

razormint21

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I seriously disagree.

Art pieces in games, such as plots, narratives, cutscenes, and even movies, can be considered art. In its purest sense, what are the goals of these static, non interactive set pieces in video games? They convey a message. If movies are considered art, then the CG movies in Final Fantasy is art. If the many forms of literature are considered art, then the intricate dialogue of Visual Novels, and even the codec moments of MGS are considered art.

The argument is, even if a video game has numerous art pieces, it cannot be considered art.
So when can a game be considered art? EVERY PIECE OF DEVELOPED SOFTWARE IN FORM OF A GAME IS ART.

First of all let's define art, let's use wikipedia's definition...

"Art is the process or product of deliberately arranging elements in a way to affect the senses or emotions. It encompasses a diverse range of human activities, creations, and modes of expression, including music, literature, film, sculpture, and paintings. The meaning of art is explored in a branch of philosophy known as aesthetics. "

All forms and pieces of art deliver a message. The difference of delivering a message or expression between a movie or an essay against video games is one simple fact. Video games are supposed to be interactive . When you watch a movie, when you read a book, do you believe that whatever reaction you emit will have an impact on the message that is being transmitted? Will your actions affect(the only action is, to read or to watch) the way the story is presented? NO. Why? It's because a writer has already written a plot for you. All you need to do is watch. Entertainment just follows.

All you can do is watch, observe, analyze, and decipher the message on your own after watching. In video games, especially the video games of recent years, players now have a choice. And their actions affect the flow of a game, even if the game is linear in nature, or even if it's just a casual game without a plot and a point to spread across.

If you have played the recent Final Fantasy XII, you know that its a very strict, story driven game. While there is only one message at the end, you have different methods to get there. The case is simillar to Diablo or any other RPG(even MMORPGs). The development of the characters in terms of gameplay are left to the player. If you novelize everything, say write your progress in excruciating detail (meaning you will tally how much potions you have in your inventory, or your exact weapon names), and you compare this to other people, you will realize that no experience will be the same as any other. Sure, in order to get to act V, you have to pass acts I to IV. And you can never change the way the story goes. But the way you approach things, the way you get through the challenges, is a unique experience that belongs only to you. I'll put in a simpler way, playing and finishing a video game is like reading a novel, albeit interactive. In as much as you did not contribute to the story and its resolution, you uncovered the pages in a different way and still got the message in the end.

This is not art, yet...

Ok, let's move to a less serious tone of things. Let say, Plants Vs. Zombies. While there is a plot(zombies like brains, plants hurt zombies), it's not necessarily a core aspect of the game. Its just there in order to spice things up and create appeal(Without the quirky zombie theme, i wouldn't play this and would just stick to my tower defenses in Warcraft 3, some have far better mechanics than the one PVZ uses).

The difference between plot-driven game and a casual non-plot driven game, is that, casual games focus on the experience rather than giving a message. Every movie, photograph, and piece of writing has a message to say. Casual games do not need to give off messages, for their main purpose is to entertain. Any plot that comes afterwards, is just a theme, a design for aesthetic purposes. If you remove the terrorist-counter terrorist them of Counter-Strike, it's still an FPS with modern urban combat elements. If you remove the plot of God of War 3, it's no longer a cinematic gaming experience, just a soulless hacker-slasher...

So what is the difference between Games and other "legitimate" forms of art? Experience.
To experience a movie, you will have to watch. To experience a novel, you will have to read. To experience accounting, well, you have to study? Forget that one.

Video games are meant to be played. Once you finish playing. You will always have a reaction. A stimulation of the senses. No matter how linear, or story driven a video game is, it is experienced by a user in a different way to that of a movie, literature or music. And the experience is not controlled. Essays are read word for word, guitar instrumentals are heard chord for chord, and scenes in a movie will always be the same no matter how many times you play it. In a video game, the experience is left to the player. Although the story, the environment, and the presentation is beyond your control, how you approach them is entirely up to you. Are you a juggler or a button masher in Tekken? Do you prefer CQB or Sniping in CoD4? Do you build up your army, or do you rush your opponents in Starcraft? When you finish Tekken, you get a CG flick. When you finish a round of Domination in Cod4, you get bragging rights. The end result is the same. But you will always have a different story to tell.

Conclusion

Games should be considered art because it affects the human train of thought and it entertains.

Any medium of entertainment(even sex, for all you logicians) is art. Why? Because, it affects the senses, and it creates a reaction. If the Godfather movie gave you an idea of the harshness of a mobster's life, then Godfather the game gave you the chance to experience the idea.(although not as authentic and real, the intention to please is there)

Think of it like this, A movie, a novel, a painting is a finished piece of art. The only thing left to do is to savor the message, and produce a conclusion and reaction.

A video game is a finished piece of art but still needs input from the receiver before it can be given comprehension and understanding. Every game is like a canvass with predetermined figures already pre-drawn, but lacks color. What you need to do is to pick up the paint and apply it yourself. If you follow the trends and intentions of the developers correctly, you will finish the painting, get the message, and begin the comprehension process. Just like the other forms, of non interactive art...

my two cents...
 

Blindswordmaster

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xmetatr0nx said:
I cant. For one that would be beyond pretentious. Second, it wouldnt change anything at all for me whether they were called "art" or not. So if a car is called a horseless carriage, as long as it drives me from a to b i could care less what its called.
Riddle me this. What is the point of posting just to say "I don't give a shit."? Either contribute to the conversation or get the fuck out.
 

Blindswordmaster

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SimuLord said:
News flash: Roger Ebert is still right. The art fails to qualify as gameplay and the gameplay fails to qualify as art---never the twain shall meet.

Games can have art in them, but it's usually in the form of a cutscene (as in the Metal Gear Solid series) or something that, while interesting and arguably artistic, fails miserably as an actual game (Heavy Rain). Games having art does not mean they are art. The two concepts are, until further notice, mutually exclusive (and thank the gods. I can't stand arthouse-nerd games.)
How is interaction in a digital environment not art? I could argue that this is the next step in art. It's he difference between looking at a painting and walking around in it. Please explain to the class how gameplay, actually interacting with the medium,is inferior to sitting in front of rendered marble and trying to figure out how the artist wants yo to feel? You remind me of Jim Carrey in the 90's.
 

tzimize

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Art is a word that can mean a lot, saying games are art implies a certain interpretation of the word.

First a personal definition of art: Art to me is a product of a kind that either takes its particular field to such new heights that it simply cannot be fairly compared to anything else, or something that aspires to be more than entertainment and manages to be more than entertainment. It can also be something that just invokes real feelings in me.

To me, games can definately be art, but not all games are art. Some paintings are just paintings, but other paintings are art.

There are a few games that to me can be art.

Okami: Mostly because of the stunning visual style.
Portal: Because of a good visual style, a refinement of gameplay that is almost unheard of and fantastic use of sound (mainly GLADos).
Max Payne: Mainly the visuals, in particular the "comic" sequenses, but also the great voice of Max Payne).
Psychonauts (in particular the paranoia level. OMG! that is one of the most mindblowing gaming experiences of my life): The whole concept of traveling into peoples psyche and visualizing this has to be one of the best ideas for a game ever, and its well executed as well :D
I am hesitant to put FF8 here, but I cannot remember playing a game and feeling more complete when it ended.
I am also hesitant to put FF9 here, but the existencial journey of Vivi is the definition of awesome.
Shadow of the Colossus have been mentioned, and I'd like to mention Ico in the same run. Mostly a visual treat, but also gameplaywise, especially with SotC.
God of War trilogy. It might be "simple" but it takes the genre to such heights and gives an experience so awesome that it has to be more than a good game.
 

Enigmers

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Portal gets my vote. That mixes minimalistic, sleek visual appeal, humorous writing, a subtle and out-of-the-way "story" (or a background), and an atmosphere which I can't quite describe.

One thing Games tend to do really well is convey an atmosphere. Bioshock, for instance, gives you the feeling that there could be a splicer coming out of any hole at any moment, that the lumbering Big Daddy decides he doesn't like your hairstyle, or that one miscalculated stranglehold will summon a horde of guards in Metal Gear Solid. No other medium - not even film - can convey atmosphere that well.

(Books are kind of debatable, as your imagination contributes a lot to your experience.)
 

RhombusHatesYou

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Blindswordmaster said:
How is interaction in a digital environment not art? I could argue that this is the next step in art.
There are a number of visual artists who are experimenting with interactivity rather than passive observation, much of it done with digital media.