Adramelech said:
Although I'm sure it's been said many different ways in this thread, the most important point of this discussion, every time it happens is thus:
There are no such thing as "girl games".
To imply such a thing as gender-role specific games is regressive thinking and incredibly condescending to both sexes.
I agree entirely that there is, or should be, no such thing as "girl games". However, I do strongly believe that some games are much more accessable to women than others - and I'm not talking about peggle or cooking mama, I'm talking about Mass Effect and Beyond Good and Evil.
It's all a mish-mosh of cherry-picked statistics, media influence and cognitive bias. If the gameplay is good, women will enjoy the heck out of brain-crushing sociopathic action games. If the gameplay is good, guys will enjoy the heck out of social simulations and decision-making RPGs. You only think one or the other is "for guys" or "for girls" because of popular influence in gender identity.
I don't think of games as "for girls" or "for guys," but I do think that the vast majority of games are designed with consideration for a male audience and without consideration for a female audience. That doesn't mean that there isn't anything in these games for girls, but there might well be content that discourages them from playing.
Is there any reason we can't have a few games where the brain-crushing is perpetrated by a woman? We have a massive variety of men, from 'roid-pumped marines through to silent scientists.
Someone mentioned the "huge-necked space marine with bikini clad chick" stereotype. You don't think women find anything appealing about heroic, toned men and beautiful, confident women? These are idolized images, not solely the realm of male adolescent power fantasies. Seriously, open a female-targeted fashion magazine sometime. It's basically Maxim with ads for make-up.
I've read my share of fashion magazines while bored waiting to get my hair cut. They have some crazy, outlandish outfits, but they're very rarely all crotches and chests. And, as many men don't like to read Maxim, many women hate fashion magazines.
Humans are pretty similar. On a primal level we all generally respond to the same stuff. It's society that steps in and tells us that girls like pink and should play with Barbi dolls, while boys like blue and should play with robots. In reality, there's a huge gray area in the middle.
I agree entirely with this paragraph, and I think it's society's responsibility to encourage people to form their own opinions instead of moulding people into stereotypes at a young age.
wererogue said:
I expect that a lot of people on this forum would shy away from a game where the lead male - either the player character or a supporting character - spent most of his time in a thong.
Even in World of Warcraft, where the community is often exceptionally accepting of women, the male armour makes them look kick-ass and powerful, whereas the female armour makes them look vulnerable.
You're a guy, correct? This illustrates what I'm saying perfectly. Pretty much every girl gamer I know loves the super-powered femme armor look. They are more likely to be insulted by a game that makes the strong women look like dudes or dress like dudes. The chainmail-bikini warrior queen look is no more ridiculous than male characters sporting unwieldy fantasy plate armor with giant shoulder pads and yet it allows the character to remain distinctly feminine while retaining the ass-kickery.
I am a guy, and I'm a feminist. Apparently you know different girls from me, and that's my point. I'm not saying we have to stop making games the way they are now. But if "pretty much" every girl you know likes the sexy armour, what about the ones that don't?
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/09/i-want-to-play-too.html
http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=703
http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=791
These people exist in non-trivial numbers, and we're making a lot of games that they don't want to play.
You think the armor makes them look vulnerable because you're a dude. It's in your genetic programming. It's the same reason you think the guys in steam-powered platemail look badass. Believe me, when a girl is playing a fantasy game, she wants to be a whip-wielding barbarian sex goddess as much as you want to be Krolthar the Well-Endowed. Girls don't fantasize about playing as homely librarians and you don't fantasize about a game where you are a middle-aged farmer with a drinking problem.
You say that everyone is similar, and I agree, in that *everyone is different*. We love it when games give us the choice to customise our avatar, because it allows us to impose our aesthetic preferences on our media. I agree that often, male choice is as limited and as stereotyped as female choice, reinforcing roles that aren't inherent in gender.
I'm not suggesting the World of Warcraft give people frumpy armour any more than I am suggesting that they give people that farmer class. I'm certainly not suggesting that the art direction should repress femeninity. However, I *am* suggesting that they allow girls to have hardcore, imposing, and downright scary armour, and that they also allow guys to wear something sexy instead of limiting them to looking like tanks.
