Games That Are Loved For Their Story... Have Terrible Stories?

[Pearwood]

A lot of the games people praise the story of are really very traditional stories told well. Not differently, just well. Stuff like Baldur's Gate and the Elder Scrolls are very basic "You are the chosen one" stories with the only difference being the depth of the world and the dozens if not hundreds of sub-plots and side quests it would take years to resolve.

Bioware have very rarely moved away from their favourite plot - a previously unknown peasant is sent on a quest motivated by revenge after the destruction of his/her home town. Yet their games are universally regarded as having the best stories when one could make the argument that the main plot differs very little between their games and indeed many other similar fantasy stories. Mass Effect as well has a very generic plot where aliens invade, you are a war hero and the universe's best hope but you're thwarted at every turn by a ruling body made up exclusively of denial-ridden tossers just for plot convenience.

Shin Megami Tensei is another one, particularly Persona 3. I can sum up the entire series more or less in one single word. "Tower". The plot is minimal in these games until the halfway or three-quarter way mark and before then really the plot is just a way to facilitate gameplay. The same applies to Etrian Odyssey too although I won't talk about that because I couldn't make any bloody sense of the storyline.

The biggest case of this is Portal in my opinion and I think it makes my point best. The plot is paper-thin and relied solely on the quality of the narration to hold up.


So after all that I finally come to my point. There are certainly games that diversify from the typical story archetypes but the ones I most often hear being praised for their plot don't. So with that said what is it that makes a game story good if it isn't originality? Is it the depth, the narration, simply the manner in which the plot is presented? Personally I can forgive a ton of mistakes if the game is written in a charming way. Hyperdimension Neptunia is a good example, to say that game had flaws is quite an understatement but I had fun with it for a good while.

Edit - bolded for emphasis. I know there are only so many stories out there, the point was these don't really mix up the basic story too much. I'm just looking for opinions on what makes a game story good if the plot itself doesn't really matter other than as a means to keep things moving.

 

[Kahunaburger]

In many cases, it's less about the plot and more about the storytelling. See also: Bioware.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Er...since when does using traditional story telling elements automatically make it a bad story?

People tend to use the same things over and over again because they work. They can be done badly, they can fail to have anything new or interesting done with the old material, but they don't have to.

 

[steevee]

There are only so many stories. Particularly so when it comes to needing to be an integral charcter to that story.

It's more about the story telling, the completeness of it and whether it is visceral that make a 'good story' in a modern game. MW2 didn't have a good story, though you can argue it has the same basic plot outline as MW1. That's because it didn't tell the story well and didn't really try anything new. Just a simple example off the top of my head.

 

[Bill Allen]

If I had to come up with two right off the top of my head, I'd say Bioshock and Braid both have a pretty decent grasp of how to make storytelling interesting.

Oh, and Bastion.

So... apparently games that start with B.

 

[gmergurl]

Definitely how the story is told. It's ALL about presentation. You can have the most interesting story in the world, but I have to want to care, and if you can't provide that, I'm not interested.

During the late Renaissance, Galileo was used as a court entertainer for the Medici family. He did simple experiments and presented them to the court. He made simple experiments like does ice float or sink in water (which was revolutionary at the time) actually entertaining. Think about that, does ice float or sink was actually a show for the Medici during court or parties or whatever.

Movies, books, television, even through spoken word, if you don't have a command of someone's emotions, they aren't going to care about what you say. Videogames are almost entirely different source of medium for storytelling. Instead of having the make you care about the main character or what happens to him, usually you all ready care, because you are playing as that character. Now I really get into my videogame sessions, usually putting myself in the shoes of the character (currently playing AC2 so I think myself as an Assassin on a holy quest against the Templars (oh the irony!)), so my investment is probably larger than average, but the idea is the same. "I am (incharge) of this person" instantly gets you interested and invested.

Bioware with it's same-plot, of "chosen one," well... who doesn't want to be the chosen one? Yes it gets overdone sometimes, but Bioware kinda hides it pretty well... well kinda, could care less about ME series and yet I'll play DA:O until kingdom come... >.>;; can't wait until I can get DA2 for pretty cheap on steam (college kid on a budget).

As for Portal, that game is 90% gameplay imho, and yet that 10% is magically captivating (maybe because there is so little) that it's good. Other than what I've already suggested, I can't explain why it's so captivating. However, the few other games I've played with this formula, wasn't as spectacular as Portal, however it could just be decent writing on Portal's behalf. Yeah it's not very deep, but it's concise and to the point, there's no guessing, no need for back stories or other nonsense. Evil computer, must defeat, got it. How evil? Really evil. Oh... yeah, really gotta destroy.

 

[lord.jeff]

Yes ignore the fact that a huge portion of the games listed are devoted to meeting and learning about your teammates and instead only acknowledge one portion of the the story, if you don't see a problem with that logic lets try applying it to books; Lord of the rings is only about a ring, Lord of the Flies is only about an island, Moby Dick is about a whale, and the list goes on in fact I could do it for any story.

 

[Llil]

The same applies to Etrian Odyssey too although I won't talk about that because I couldn't make any bloody sense of the storyline.

The biggest plot twist in Etrian Odyssey 1 is that there actually is a plot twist.
I've never heard anyone praise the series for the story, though. They're great games, sure, but I don't think they count as "loved for their story".

Anyway, I think it's more about the execution rather than originality. It would be nice to see new things more often, but I guess people are willing to forgive a lot even in a very basic and predictable storyline if it's told in an interesting way. I know I am.

 

[Bill Allen]

If I had to come up with two right off the top of my head, I'd say Bioshock and Braid both have a pretty decent grasp of how to make storytelling interesting.

Oh, and Bastion.

So... apparently games that start with B.

Let's try more, umm, Baldur's Gate 1 & 2, umm, Bioware games? Umm...Banetscape Borment, no that didn't work.

Borderla...OW! Sorry!

Well, there goes my theory!

 

[dyre]

Storytelling, bro. Main plotline isn't quite as important as how you tell/execute it. Just compare BG2 to Oblivion. Same "random peasant saves the world" thing, but Oblivion does a fuck-all job of telling it, while BG2 really makes you feel like you're a part of that world, doing something important alongside characters you like and care about. Bioware's been dropping the ball lately, but they were at the top of their game when they made BG2. Btw, I think the old school WRPG most praised for its story is Planescape Torment. I guess you think that's generic too?

And I don't really see how you can come up with such a tiny handful of examples and then declare that games loved for their stories have terrible stories, as if people have some kind of obsession with bad stories.

 

[thom_cat_]

Portal's story isn't great, it's the storytelling that is.
Half-Life's story was apparently good... but it's just seriously ridiculous. I like the idea of a complete government coverup, and a half-way planet but the rest of it was just... what? Nihilanth probably making the least of all sense.

 

[Pearwood]

Er...since when does using traditional story telling elements automatically make it a bad story?

It doesn't. I was just asking what the most important factor in turning a generic story into a good story is for people. I just know a lot of people here value originality very highly so I was asking them why they like some very popular games that deserve every bit of the praise they get despite not being particularly original.

Like I said in the OP it isn't that they use those elements, it's that they change very little about them as well. A game that takes an archetype and adapts it to tell a different story is telling an original story, these games just repeat those archetypes.

Btw, I think the old school WRPG most praised for its story is Planescape Torment. I guess you think that's generic too?

I didn't include that because it has a pretty original plot. And because I haven't finished it yet.

Persona 3 and 4 aren't so much about that tower in my opinion, but about people. And that's what makes those particular games so good.

Yeah they do a really good job making you feel like a normal person even though you spent the last night climbing a tower of evil and shooting yourself in the head repeatedly. That's certainly a case of the depth of the writing making up for everything else, the relationships are mostly plausible and it's a nice break since the gameplay is hard as hell.

 

[seraphy]

Planescape Torment! There hasn't been game yet that had better story, and you can't really say that game had terrible story can you?

I kinda agree with Bioware, their chosen one stories are bit overdone perhaps, but still their writing is solid when compared to any other developer.

Persona 3 and 4 aren't so much about that tower in my opinion, but about people. And that's what makes those particular games so good.

 

[LiberalSquirrel]

If you boil it down to the huge, overarching plot elements like that, of course you are going to get something that sounds generic. Also, Hamlet is about a kid who goes out and tries to avenge his family. And Lord of the Rings is about a group of people setting out on a quest to save the world. ...I don't think anyone would argue that either of those have terrible stories.

It's not what overarching conventions you use, it's how you use them. Think of Christopher Booker's theory: all plots can be boiled down to 7 basic types (Overcoming the Monster, The Quest, Journey and Return, Comedy, Tragedy, Rebirth, and Rags to Riches). You've pointed out that most good video games fall into these types (specifically favoring "Overcoming the Monster," mainly), which is logical: the games with the best stories actually follow genre conventions of storytelling, and the "Overcoming the Monster" plot gives a specific goal for a gamer while still allowing for plenty of character development and man vs. man plotline twists, despite staying within that particularly type convention.

The specifics of writing within these conventions is what makes a story good. And that is where these games excel.

 

[Pearwood]

The biggest plot twist in Etrian Odyssey 1 is that there actually is a plot twist.
I've never heard anyone praise the series for the story, though. They're great games, sure, but I don't think they count as "loved for their story".

Yeah Etrian Odyssey quickly stopped making sense to me after I killed an NPC from earlier who was now a tree except I didn't really kill him he just withdrew into the Labyrinth and created the sixth stratum... what? And yeah I just mentioned them as a side note to say the section on SMT applies to pretty much all Atlus games.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

But just because something is original doesn't guarantee it will be good.

Yes, a lot of the examples you listed have a very generic story structure. Why? Because it works. The intrigue and originality then come in through individual characters and the universe that the plot is set in.

Take the example I always use in debates such as these... Star Wars, which is acclaimed as one of the most loved stories of the 20th Century. If you strip away the superficial trappings of the setting the actual story your left with is as old as the hills. You have the princess and her small band of loyal knights fighting for good against the evil dark lord and his imperial army. That sort of story has been around ever since people started telling stories, but we never get tired of hearing it. By contrast the prequels tried to make their story more original, with the political intrigue of the Republic, the Jedi Order and the Trade Federation, along with more flawed characters and greater detail added to stuff like The Force. However, the result was a convoluted, boring, and at times infuriating mess. Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings too. Minus the setting and character detail and neither of these are particularly 'original', but are they good? Hell yes.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

In many cases, it's less about the plot and more about the storytelling

This.

The story of Bastion (for example) is incredibly simple.

Spoiler: the whole story of bastion in like...3 lines

Two tribes had a war. the was ended. Both tribes are now nervous about the other one. Superweapon goes off and kills the tribe that used it, world blows up. Fix world or deal with it and move on. The end.

HOWEVER!

The way the story is told makes everything feel personal. Despite the basic plot being so simple, it makes you care about the world and the people touched by the calamity. It has some of THE best storytelling in a game, PERIOD.

 

[DiMono]

Basically, there are only a few stories that can be told. Every other story that's ever been written is a derivative of one of them. "A nobody rises to become a hero" is one of them. Whether it's a hero against oppression, against aliens, or whatever else, it's all playing on that plot.

What determines how good a story is isn't its originality, but how well it tells itself.

 

[Freaky Lou]

Er...since when does using traditional story telling elements automatically make it a bad story?

It doesn't. I was just asking what the most important factor in turning a generic story into a good story is for people. I just know a lot of people here value originality very highly so I was asking them why they like some very popular games that deserve every bit of the praise they get despite not being particularly original.

Like I said in the OP it isn't that they use those elements, it's that they change very little about them as well. A game that takes an archetype and adapts it to tell a different story is telling an original story, these games just repeat those archetypes.

Btw, I think the old school WRPG most praised for its story is Planescape Torment. I guess you think that's generic too?

I didn't include that because it has a pretty original plot. And because I haven't finished it yet.

Don't forget the first Fallout! Also, from your original post, I wouldn't really say that Elder Scrolls games are praised for their story. That's never been Bethesda's strong suit.

Anyway, as far as basic plots go, you could apply the same to Shakespeare. All his actual plots are pretty simple (with one or two exceptions.) The reason he is hailed as the greatest English writer of all time is how radically inventive and layered his dialogue was. That's where the meat is, and the same applies to most great literary works. Don Quixote is at its core just the story of an old man pursuing his dream. LOTR is FULL of plot tropes, and is one of the most basic plots of all---the "journey".

In video games, as anywhere else, what keeps most people interested is dialogue, characters and pacing. Fallout: New Vegas has a simple plot, and it even uses amnesia as a framing device (the most tired mechanic of all.) But I'd rank it among the giants of video game storytelling because of how strong its characters and dialogue are.

That said, a strong plot is a great thing to have, too. Planescape: Torment has been mentioned. Silent Hill 2 is an interesting example, because it has a simple structure (a man is trying to find his wife) but a really interesting new spin is put on it (his wife died years ago.)

Anyway, the point is that there's a lot more to storytelling than plot.