Games you like that you can admit can be a bit cringe-worthy sometimes

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

BlazBlue.

love the plotting and characters, even though at suck at, but all the female characters are fetishised in some manner, even my fave, Litchi. Taokaka has a pretty heavy coat on, but underneath she only has shorts and suspenders.

Gears of War 2, and Dom's wife subplot. Kinda moving in the moment, but when lots of other games are doing it...

Unreal 2.

Crew of hardened soldiers, all the dudes are wearing power armour, coveralls... the one woman, a brilliant tactician haunted by a past decisin goes around in tight pants and a split front halter top.

Thats the ones that immediately come to mind, but there's probably a tonne more that have stuff in it Id rather it didn't, even of I loved it, or, well, female character designs I liked from a personal aesthetic enjoyment, or, ahem, sex appeal aspect, but I would never describe as appropriate to the setting or empowering.

Regardin blazblue, you're both right and wrong. All females are fetishized, but so are all the males. It's actually legendary about coverin every fetish possible so for every Litchi bouncing you get yaoi female fanservice with Jin going NIIIIISAN and trying to sexually kill Ragna in a way fujoshi enjoy, Bang with his astral that strips him down to a fundoshi thong, Carl being the shotaest shota that ever shotad and so on. So, while there's oodles of fanservice, it is NOT problematic as it is ultimately evenly shared among sexes.

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

DA:2 just seemed to do the whole thing way too OTT overall. Old women, and Flemeth, AND Isabella etc. - every woman just had massive boobs and it just felt wrong.

Every woman? By definition that includes Aveline, Hawke, Merrill, Bethany (the 'real' version), the female dalish, Meredith, and so on.

It just distracted me from being absorbed into the experience, and whilst in isolation each may be able to be explained away to some degree, as a collective it was cringeworthy.

Don't get me wrong, I thought Isabela's look was rather dopey initially (I think the outfit design itself is great, though) - ditto female characters wacky hip sway. But a brazen, flirty design suited her character just fine, and that so it quickly just became a part of the overall aesthetic (which I'd say is a little more exaggerated across the board than DA:O).

 

[Danbo Jambo]

DA:2 just seemed to do the whole thing way too OTT overall. Old women, and Flemeth, AND Isabella etc. - every woman just had massive boobs and it just felt wrong.

Every woman? By definition that includes Aveline, Hawke, Merrill, Bethany (the 'real' version), the female dalish, Meredith, and so on.

It just distracted me from being absorbed into the experience, and whilst in isolation each may be able to be explained away to some degree, as a collective it was cringeworthy.

Don't get me wrong, I thought Isabela's look was rather dopey initially (I think the outfit design itself is great, though) - ditto female characters wacky hip sway. But a brazen, flirty design suited her character just fine, and that so it quickly just became a part of the overall aesthetic (which I'd say is a little more exaggerated across the board than DA:O).

Yeah fair enough, not every woman, but what seemed like a large percentage.

Isabella's character definitely gave it weight, but I personally still just felt distracted by it. I'm sure many didn't, but for me it felt as if the game was sexed up with the intention of appealing to the masses and little more.

I didn't really enjoy the game, so maybe I viewed it all quite critically on the whole.

 

[The Lunatic]

Its something that could be better.

So, changed.

No, I don't think art should be changed to suit my particular sensibilities.

I think it'd be very selfish to demand that art should revolve around what I want from it.

 

[WindKnight]

Its something that could be better.

So, changed.

No, I don't think art should be changed to suit my particular sensibilities.

I think it'd be very selfish to demand that art should revolve around what I want from it.

So, Bioware shouldn't have made the extended cut ending to Mass Effect 3, and stuck to their original artistic vision, ignoring all the complaints and demands?

 

[The Lunatic]

So, Bioware shouldn't have made the extended cut ending to Mass Effect 3, and stuck to their original artistic vision, ignoring all the complaints and demands?

It's up to the artist to do what they want with their art. Not for me to claim what they should and shouldn't do.

However, if their reasons for doing so were complaints and so on, then, yes, I disagree with it.

Ultimately, I can only really think less of a developer who sacrifices their vision to cater to others. So, the whole situation just made me think less of Bioware. However, given I hadn't much care for them to begin with, it's a bit moot. But, beyond thinking less of them, there's very little place for me to claim what they should or shouldn't do.

 

[WindKnight]

So, Bioware shouldn't have made the extended cut ending to Mass Effect 3, and stuck to their original artistic vision, ignoring all the complaints and demands?

It's up to the artist to do what they want with their art. Not for me to claim what they should and shouldn't do.

However, if their reasons for doing so were complaints and so on, then, yes, I disagree with it.

Ultimately, I can only really think less of a developer who sacrifices their vision to cater to others. So, the whole situation just made me think less of Bioware. However, given I hadn't much care for them to begin with, it's a bit moot. But, beyond thinking less of them, there's very little place for me to claim what they should or shouldn't do.

What if, say due to a difference laws, something that was ok in one country would have a work banned or unsalable in another?

What if, due to a lack of knowledge, the creators puts something actively offensive or potentially bigoted in in their work, and due to complaints or criticism they decide to remove something they would not have put in if they had been aware?

(edited for clarity)

 

[DonTsetsi]

The most problematic game I liked was "Gone Home". I enjoyed the side stories and some of the little touches, (like father and daughter sharing the same taste in porn magazines), even though I find the boring cliche main story and the lack of gameplay extremely problematic.

 

[Naldan]

Project Zero/Fatal Frame. Honestly, I didn't even see it that way back when I played it 2008 (the first on Xbox original, was in the army).


If we're honest, we could list almost every game ever according to some since the definitions got so diluted. But maybe the most obvious for me is the one above and I like the whole series.

I give you a secret: I could tell you in everything media what would be problematic. I was very into that side for the better part of my life

 

[The Lunatic]

What if, say due to a difference laws, something that was ok in one country would have a work banned or unsalable in another?

What if, due to a lack of knowledge, the creators puts something actively offensive or potentially bigoted in in their work, and due to complaints or criticism they decide to remove something they would not have put in if they had been aware?

(edited for clarity)

I disagree with censorship laws, but, realistic artists have to make money.

The way that South Park game handled censorship would probably be the ideal way, that way the intended scene is still conveyed, just in a different format.

Then the creator is kinda cowardly and shouldn't change what they did because of some delicate sensitivities, even when no offense was intended.

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

I didn't really enjoy the game, so maybe I viewed it all quite critically on the whole.

That's understandable. I loved the game, so I was always able to overlook small details that might've otherwise bugged me. Some of the proportions of some of the female human characters were iffy, sure, but what matters most in a narrative driven game is the writing and I felt DAII's was excellent.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Sheesh, is "problematic" a trigger word or something?

OT: So, Warframe. Great 4-player squad based MMO that reminds me a lot of Mass Effect 3's multiplayer.

But dear god in heaven, what a grind. As much as I like it, you need to grind the (relatively) Sammy levels to get components, grind some more for credits, grind extra for mods that are the real way to level up, grind extra mods and credits so you can level up the good mods, grind the bosses for the rare mats for the blueprints for the new stuff which then takes between 12 and 72 hours to build, grind the reputation, grind the keys to get to the levels to get the rare part to upgrade the reputation so you can unlock more grinding. Then you need Forma and Potatos, but those BP don't drop for shit and take yet more rare mods to boot.

But hey, shop works fine.

And through all that, there is basically no in game resource that tells you where to find this shit in the first place. Sure, if you take pictures of 30 different individuals or the same exact name, you can get a list of the mods they drop, but that's about it.

Plus, they were/are in open beta for an excessive amount of time.

And Valkyr's ult called hysteria. Minor thing, comparatively, but still ugh.

Anyway, gotta go check what timed missions are up. Need to grind out my PS4 account because it doesn't cross with the PC version.

 

[Samechiel]

So, Bioware shouldn't have made the extended cut ending to Mass Effect 3, and stuck to their original artistic vision, ignoring all the complaints and demands?

I'm not sure it can be argued that a screen that says "REMEMBER TO BUY THE DLC!" can be considered artistic vision.

 

[WindKnight]

Then the creator is kinda cowardly and shouldn't change what they did because of some delicate sensitivities, even when no offense was intended.

Its not so much delicate sensibilities, as they would not have put it in the first place if they had known what they didn't when they put it in.

To put it another way, finding out facts they were unaware of, what they changed didn't fit their artistic vision, and never really did.

And Valkyr's ult called hysteria. Minor thing, comparatively, but still ugh.

Also, the shotgun fire rate mod's name includes a word that's a pretty nasty slur in the UK, to the point it required transformer with that name to have the name changed, and is generally snipped out of daytime broadcasts when its used in us imports.

 

[WindKnight]

double post, sorry

 

[maninahat]

Where were the mass female protests throughout the ages? If it was all so bad, surely some would have risen up against the establishment?

It may well have happened. But as they say (to LindyBeige's annoyance) "History is his story", and it is quite possible female protests or efforts at liberalisation were simply deemed unimportant and not deserving of recording. Margery Kempe used to get into a lot of sticky situations, in regards to fighting over female sartorial rights and female preaching.

Why is it that this only started happening now in this modern age of easier jobs and social security? Because women had no need for it then. They do now. And even now you'll not find many women complaining that there are not enough female garbagemen, female mine workers, female builders (female convicts?). No, it's only about the safe, well-paying jobs, like managers or doctors.

Women had to fight for the privilege to be front line soldiers in the military, and that right was only granted to them a few years back in some Western countries. Historically women did work in mines (for less pay) until they were prohibited, and it wasn't until fairly recently that these prohibitions were lifted.

The thing about garbage men and mine work is that most people (men and women) don't aspire to have those jobs. The focus of feminists on the lack of women managers or women in STEM fields is because those are respected, influential, highly paying jobs. Perhaps if we saw a lot more female politicians, generals, CEOs and scientists, they might then take an interest in the shortage of female refuse collectors.

 

[The Lunatic]

Its not so much delicate sensibilities, as they would not have put it in the first place if they had known what they didn't when they put it in.

To put it another way, finding out facts they were unaware of, what they changed didn't fit their artistic vision, and never really did.

But, if it wasn't the intention, what does it matter?

If no offense is intended, then people shouldn't take it, and if they do so, it's entirely their fault.

 

[kenu12345]

Just going to pop out and say that you could have worded your thread name and your opening a whole lot better since I found some of the things you said ehhhhhhhhy. Either way, I assume we are talking bout games that had an aspect that we really didn't like and wish wasn't there and in that respect I hate the fan service in Fire Emblem Fates. Like I don't mind fan service most of the time, its to be expected from games from Japan, but what I hate is how unequal it is. For instance, on males I freaking love the Nohr Noble class design armor. Completely practical as well as looking bad ass to boot but then you see the female side. Like what were they thinking with the female design. You are basically wearing the top half of the armor on the female version with your panties just out in the breese with some leggings. Like this to me has to be the most moronic thing and its not just this class, Dark Knights have the same problem. Dudes look alright but the female is riding in in a thong. It doesn't look cool devs. Its just stupid. If you want to have the females looking retarded, make the dudes look retarded too. Thats why the sorceror class is a ok in my book

 

[Bilious Green_v1legacy]

Patty was brilliant, although I much prefered Risen 2 out of the entire series. The humour made it for me.

Big breasts are mint and I like them in most games if they suit the character and vibe. However you only have to look at how out of context Dragon Age 2's sexing up of women was to see it actually hurt the game. The old women all had 36DD pert breasts, Flemeth lost all her mystery and earthyness, and believing Isabella could be away st sea for weeks on end and could keep a crew of pirates focussed when looking like that was too far a stretch for me.

So it's about the game more than the breast size really. If sexy, A-typical feminine women fit in the game then I'm more than happy to oogle over them. It's when they're forced into games it ruins it.

I think we need to be a little careful in generalising in cases like this. In both of the first two DA games, a lot of generic character models were used, with the characters heads mounted on standard bodily models. Actually creating separate models for old women and old men might well have been an extra task the art team didn't have time for, especially with DA2 compressed production cycle, so they used the generic bodies, which produced some incongruous results. That does not necessarily mean it was an intentional decision to make everyone busty, it may simply have been a limitation of the resources they had to work with. Personally, I think this situation was simply a technical compromise rather than a design choice.

In the specific case of Flemeth however, I think you might actually have a valid argument, as she was unaccountably sexed up for reasons never fully explored. I think perhaps in part it was to give her an "iconic" appearance to strengthen character identity, but the actual design itself was kind of off base and did end up being weirdly fetishy and OoC.