Gaming companies put on unearned pedestals

[remnant_phoenix]

Another one for Valve.

They do some pretty shitty things with Steam, even EA has better customer service, Steam has become a shovelware crap-engine and is slowly absorbing all of PC gaming into it and the last thing they made which wasn't about forcing people into online games was... Portal 2? Which was... Okay.

Not really the messiah everyone thinks they are, in my opinion. But they have a fat bearded man who is rather clever, they occasionally give a discount and the Half-Life 3 joke, so everyone gives them a pass.

I'm gonna go with Square. The glory days of Final Fantasy VI, Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, etc. will always be remembered fondly...but what have they done in the past generation that will be remembered fondly by gaming in general 10 years after release?

Wait... People still respect Squares...SquareEn... Square? They have been a running joke among the gaming community ever since Tidus laughed and the game with Final in it's name broke 10 and started making sequels.

It's not so much on a pedastal as knocked off one into a pile of reputational shit.

You'd be surprised.

I visit other communities that have large contingents JRPG fans, as well as social circles of real-life friends, and of those who loved Square's output during the SNES/PS1 era, there is this strange, irrational hope that Sqaure will release a great Final Fantasy game again.

EDIT: It's more than a bit sad, really...

 

[Uriel_Hayabusa]

I find PlatinumGames to be highly overpraised. Their games just try so hard to be over-the-top, stylish and hardcore that it usually goes at the expense of polish.

 

[L. Declis]

Kojima Studios for me.

Most of the Kojima games are pretty impressive from a production standpoint, but they are full of flaws many people disregard as nitpicky. There are fans, and then there are rabid fans, and Kojima games tend to attract a lot of the later, to the point I was convinced Kojima could put crap in the form of a CD, sell it to people, and many would go heads over heels to call it great... Then Ground Zeroes happened, and it proved me right.

...This is rabid fan-y? Maybe. Eff it, going for it anyway.

Ground Zeroes has no bugs, has something interesting to say about America's dark political side, has something interesting to say on the psychological conditions on prisoners, has amazing gameplay, reactive enemies with great A.I. and was released to hype up the second half?

Sounds like an all-round success.

Was £30 too expensive? Yeah, probably. I enjoyed it though, and I felt £30 was worth it. But "crap in the form of a CD"? In the age of Slaughtering Grounds, Battlefield 4, Ride to Hell: Retribution, FFXIII-3: Lightning Returns? Ground Zeroes is a masterpiece compared to them.

Also, Metal Gear Solid 2 was destroyed by its fans for Raiden. Metal Gear Solid 4 was destroyed by its fans for Raiden and being a little bit too cutscene heavy (and this is an audience who loves the story element). Peace Walker was destroyed for the stop-start nature of the game. Don't get me started on all the PSP titles they kept releasing, which are (except Port Ops 2) universally reviled by the fans.

Plus, Kojima has never said that people don't "get his work", he has never claimed harrassment despite being sent actual death threats, he has never "appealed to artistic merit", he has never pretended to be better than he is. Unlike many other game designers, he at least makes a good game in the core of it.

I'm fairly sure that the studio is hardly held up to be more than a slightly fringe-y group with a solid base.

----------------------

I'm also fairly sure I know look like a rabid fan, but my point is GZ is not "crap on a disc", and if it is, then you've avoided some really shocking games then.

 

[LarsInCharge]

Another one for Valve.

They do some pretty shitty things with Steam, even EA has better customer service, Steam has become a shovelware crap-engine and is slowly absorbing all of PC gaming into it and the last thing they made which wasn't about forcing people into online games was... Portal 2? Which was... Okay.

Not really the messiah everyone thinks they are, in my opinion. But they have a fat bearded man who is rather clever, they occasionally give a discount and the Half-Life 3 joke, so everyone gives them a pass.

I'm gonna go with Square. The glory days of Final Fantasy VI, Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, etc. will always be remembered fondly...but what have they done in the past generation that will be remembered fondly by gaming in general 10 years after release?

Wait... People still respect Squares...SquareEn... Square? They have been a running joke among the gaming community ever since Tidus laughed and the game with Final in it's name broke 10 and started making sequels.

It's not so much on a pedastal as knocked off one into a pile of reputational shit.

You'd be surprised.

I visit other communities that have large contingents JRPG fans, as well as social circles of real-life friends, and of those who loved Square's output during the SNES/PS1 era, there is this strange, irrational hope that Sqaure will release a great Final Fantasy game again.

EDIT: It's more than a bit sad, really...

Lightning Returns was a step in the right direction. While the story was a pile of crap, and 90% of the characters are crap because of the two preceding games, the combat was an absolute joy. If they get back to decent stories, and keep up the combat improvements they made in LR, they'll be fine.

I find PlatinumGames to be highly overpraised. Their games just try so hard to be over-the-top, stylish and hardcore that it usually goes at the expense of polish.

They remember how to have fun with video games, which is a lot more than most of the industry can say these days. I'd say that's more than enough to cheer them on.

 

[MysticSlayer]

I've never played a Valve game that I didn't have to readjust my expectations for. I tend to come into them late enough that the game has received unbelievably great praise, and I'm always disappointed on the initial run because all that praise builds my expectations far beyond what they should be. Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed all the games I've played from them, but none of them have stood out as truly fantastic so far, which is rather disappointing compared to the praise they receive.

Then there is Atlas, which always manages to craft enjoyable systems but executes them so horribly. Granted, I've only played a couple of their games, but where they weren't falling into such annoying problems as false difficulty, the pacing of those systems left me bored far before reaching the end. Not to mention, their stories are just...oh, man. I've played plenty of games that can be redeemed on their story alone. Atlas has never come close to doing that for me.

And finally there's CD Projekt. They clearly have a lot of dedication to their games, and I would even say that The Witcher: Enhanced Edition was fantastic (not really a fan of The Witcher 2). Still, they can't seem to do anything without finding some way to screw it up, and I'm still not convinced that they actually understand game design to a degree that matches their enthusiasm. If they were competent game developers that had some more thoughtful and polished writing (not that it already isn't good to an extent), I would probably join their fans in declaring them one of the best RPG developers out there, but as of right now, I just can't shake the feeling that they are a team that could deliver so much more than what they do. I sure hope The Witcher 3 can change that.

 

[Duster]

Steam is wonderful, but as for their games?

How ironic. I view steam as some cheap drm garbage, and community tools are 1/9th as good as they could be (community is really just tacked on, they don't care about improving the community beyond anything that drives sales, you have to pay to raise steam levels for things that used to be free). It has buggy consistency checks for games. Considering the resources that went into steam I am very underwhelmed. If I could I would only use steam on my phone for friends and have it uninstalled from my computer I would.

Their games on the other hand are among the greatest examples of replay value without achievements or unlockables you can get. CS:GO, Dota 2 have thriving communities and portal/half life series games are tremendous fun to speedrun.

 

[TrevHead]

Well, it's ultimately up to the fans whether they want to put someone up on a pedestal, and who am I to say they're wrong.

But yeah, I really don't get the deal with Platinum. And whenever I hear someone say 'Platinum is the only studio that gets it. They're the best developer currently on the scene.' I am too befuddled to even laugh out loud.

Yeah a lot of ppl just don't "get" Platinum, which is to be expected because they're niche both from a gameplay standpoint but setting / world too the latter of which tends to put most ppl off. And because their games don't break any records when it comes to sales they have to cut back on features and polish and focus on gameplay. Also their games tend to be full of content the sort of stuff that most others nickle and dime as DLC nowadays.

Their upcoming X1 exclusive Scalebound is said to be made with mainstream western tastes in mind so maybe you and others might enjoy them just like Souls, Dragons Dogma and Dead Rising.

Atlus is my pick, yes they make some great games but man do people seem to love to paint them as some sort of Messiah of the game industry. They are very guilty of things a lot of other companies get shit for,like for example reusing the same character designs since the 90's or copy pasting 3D models from Nocturne. I will repeat again the fact that they get away with shit no other publisher would have such as Persona 4 Arena being region locked.

Bottom line they make great games but stop treating them as if they are perfect, especially when they can't even reliably release their own games to Europe. Can I just say as side note every time someone rushes to defend with "they don't have an EU branch!" makes me want to punch something.

As a PAL gamer Atlus has a love hate relationship with me, they are shockingly bad when it comes to PAL which does deserve criticism imo.

 

[sageoftruth]

They may have already fallen from their pedestal at this point, but I'm putting in Capcom. After killing both the Mega Man series and the Resident Evil series, remakes of Street Fighter seem to be the only thing keeping them afloat, and they've certainly demonstrated repeatedly that they care nothing for their fanbase.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Yeah a lot of ppl just don't "get" Platinum, which is to be expected because they're niche both from a gameplay standpoint but setting / world too the latter of which tends to put most ppl off. And because their games don't break any records when it comes to sales they have to cut back on features and polish and focus on gameplay.

Their upcoming X1 exclusive Scalebound is said to be made with mainstream western tastes in mind so maybe you and others might enjoy them just like Souls, Dragons Dogma and Dead Rising.

Oh, I get Platinum, just not the fans acting all smug about how they're the best in the world and how they leave everyone else in the dust.

See, there is one "Platinum" game that I really, really like, and that's Okami. And when Bayonetta was first announced I figured I was to get the same level of quality. But instead I got an action game that takes place in an empty parking lot, with the most obnoxious and annoying characters I've ever laid eyes on (seriously, fucking Enzo...), and freaking still-frame cutscenes.

It might be a good idea if next time they balance things out a bit and not have an action game where the action is (arguably) great, yet the rest feels like unfinished framework.

 

[hermes]

Kojima Studios for me.

Most of the Kojima games are pretty impressive from a production standpoint, but they are full of flaws many people disregard as nitpicky. There are fans, and then there are rabid fans, and Kojima games tend to attract a lot of the later, to the point I was convinced Kojima could put crap in the form of a CD, sell it to people, and many would go heads over heels to call it great... Then Ground Zeroes happened, and it proved me right.

...This is rabid fan-y? Maybe. Eff it, going for it anyway.

Ground Zeroes has no bugs, has something interesting to say about America's dark political side, has something interesting to say on the psychological conditions on prisoners, has amazing gameplay, reactive enemies with great A.I. and was released to hype up the second half?

Sounds like an all-round success.

Was £30 too expensive? Yeah, probably. I enjoyed it though, and I felt £30 was worth it. But "crap in the form of a CD"? In the age of Slaughtering Grounds, Battlefield 4, Ride to Hell: Retribution, FFXIII-3: Lightning Returns? Ground Zeroes is a masterpiece compared to them.

Also, Metal Gear Solid 2 was destroyed by its fans for Raiden. Metal Gear Solid 4 was destroyed by its fans for Raiden and being a little bit too cutscene heavy (and this is an audience who loves the story element). Peace Walker was destroyed for the stop-start nature of the game. Don't get me started on all the PSP titles they kept releasing, which are (except Port Ops 2) universally reviled by the fans.

Plus, Kojima has never said that people don't "get his work", he has never claimed harrassment despite being sent actual death threats, he has never "appealed to artistic merit", he has never pretended to be better than he is. Unlike many other game designers, he at least makes a good game in the core of it.

I'm fairly sure that the studio is hardly held up to be more than a slightly fringe-y group with a solid base.

----------------------

I'm also fairly sure I know look like a rabid fan, but my point is GZ is not "crap on a disc", and if it is, then you've avoided some really shocking games then.

Rabid fan: Exhibit A.

Seriously now (kind of), I knew going against Kojima would pit me against people that put him on a (IMO, undeserved) pedestal but, isn't that the point of this thread?

My problem with MGS is not about bugs, production values or Raiden. The games are nearly unparalleled in the Japanese industry in terms of production value and attention to details. My problem with MGS 2 and 4 are long and I don't feel like kidnapping the thread in a long barrage of criticism over a handful of games.

Just this one: Yes... Probably 'crap on a disc' is a hyperbole, but I still stand to it: It was an overblown demo! Konami made a disc with a single map and barely enough content to fill a prologue, and sold it at almost full price, and people still praise it as "a masterpiece"? Battlefield 4 and Lightning Returns had there share of issues, but being barely 2 hours long and then ending with "now pay us again to see how it ends" were not among them... At least when they attached a demo of MGS 2 with Zone of the Enders they included a full game as "a side content" to getting the demo, but now they just charged you retail price for a disc that has less content than other games demos and DLC, but I guess its still "a masterpiece". Please... if this was pulled out by EA or Sega, there would be pitchforks at their door and sues at their offices, but I guess Konami is above that.

 

[Tanis]

Valve, so much Valve.

Maybe it's because I was an Arcade Gamer, then PC Gamer then a Home Console Gamer, then back to a PC Gamer...
But Valve, just, fuck Valve.

They've made some solid games in the past, but I HATE DRM and Steam is the most insidious piece of DRM that has ever been vomited all over my once proud PC Gaming.

 

[AntiChri5]

I don't, actually. One of the long term consequences of me loving Dragon Age 2 is a really relaxed attitude to the tastes of others. There is no shortage of games i don't like and dev's i consistently don't bother with, but i tend to just shrug and say different strokes for different folks.

 

[JagermanXcell]

I say Platinum games is the best ironically, only because everything Platinum/new Clover Studios does is make the best gameplay on the market. I never say anything great about the story (except anything involving Senators named Armstrong, and the fact that Bayo 2 is actually coherent now).

That being said, I agree that Platinum's pedestal is too high... in the EVERYTHING department (psycho fanbase's faults), not the gameplay department. Platinum deserves all the praise they get for their gameplay since it gets progressively intuitive, smoother, polished and just better as the generation passes by (something they've recently said they intend to do with Scalebound on the Xbone).
So at least they know how to make video games FUN. Yeah everything else is garbage, but I don't play Rising again and again for the "stunning gray local". I play it to eviscerate people with dodge off sets.
So now that Platinum got it's fair treatment on the correct pedastel...

I'll cast my vote for Valve and Bethesda to get off their gold incrusted pedestals.
-Valve: Steam and it's weird shenanigans on it's customer service that people just accept for some odd reason (see the rest of the thread... thanks guys).
-Bethesda: Their games keep coming out broken and incomplete, the fans keep saving them with their own mods and fixes, yet they're apparently "teh bayst" and not the people who have the passion to get far more creative with their left over scraps. The f**k?

 

[Andy Shandy]

Naughty Dog. Hell, I loved stuff like Crash and Jak & Daxter, but that the amount of praise that The Last Of Us and, in particular, Uncharted get baffles me.

And even as someone who evangelizes Platinum to no end, their pedestal is a bit too high.

 

[Souplex]

It has been 6 years since Valve made a good game, and 17 years since they made a great one, yet they are praised as the savior of gaming by some.

 

[vledleR]

Platinum is mediocre. Not bad, not great. You could swap characters in any of their games, and there would be no real difference. That's how redundant their work is. Raiden could fit into Bayonnetta, and Bayonetta wouldn't be out of place in Metal Gear Rising.

and the games would still be just as fun ^_^ Their fans do give them WAY too much praise though. I don't think they are flawless. Mad World was a downright bad game.

My vote goes to Rockstar. They butchered all sense of self-awareness out of Max Payne, and GTA has long fallen from the godsend of sandbox crime games.

 

[shrekfan246]

I don't, actually. One of the long term consequences of me loving Dragon Age 2 is a really relaxed attitude to the tastes of others. There is no shortage of games i don't like and dev's i consistently don't bother with, but i tend to just shrug and say different strokes for different folks.

It makes me glad to find solidarity with people about Dragon Age II.

OT: As someone who loves Bungie, Blizzard, Kojima, Obsidian, and Square (okay, that one is more Stockholm Syndrome than anything else), I feel a bit awkward posting in this thread. So kudos for that, at least.

I mean, I also try to not put any developer or game on a pedestal if I can help it. I always keep the problems in mind whenever I'm talking about them, either to recommend or just to discuss, because I don't think it's fair for me to talk up how much I love Metal Gear Solid without recognizing the very real issues within the games that might be deal-breakers for other people.

So I guess if I have to pick developers I don't really "get" the adulation of...

Naughty Dog. Hell, I loved stuff like Crash and Jak & Daxter, but that the amount of praise that The Last Of Us and, in particular, Uncharted get baffles me.

And even as someone who evangelizes Platinum to no end, their pedestal is a bit too high.

Herp, he took 'em.

Naughty Dog always seem to make games I'd find more interesting to watch rather than play.

And Platinum... hey, I mean, I love Okami. Metal Gear Rising is my jam. Bayonetta has been pretty fun so far, and from what I've seen Viewtiful Joe and Wonderful 101 look pretty cool too.[footnote]I'm leaving Vanquish out except for this mention because, frankly, I kind of agree with Jim Sterling about that game. And I haven't played or really seen any of their other games.[/footnote] But they make a lot of really incredibly strange design decisions, most of which seem to be in the name of "difficulty", that make their games far less fun than they could be given how completely worth praise the gameplay actually tends to be.

 

[Something Amyss]

At this point, I can't help but think Valve's praise is more a form of Stolkholm Syndrome.

Bethesda Game Studios. The open world exploration and moddability of their more well known titles are great but that's about it as far as the strengths go. Their games are often broken upon release in ways that shouldn't be acceptable and I've seen other companies get torn apart for the same thing but Bethesda seems somehow exempt from this. A lot of people will find other sources to blame (such as a particular system) even when the problem seems to be on other systems and other companies seem to be perfectly fine working with that system.

Critical Miss covered this once [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comicsandcosplay/comics/critical-miss/12061-Skyrim-Cabbage-Rocket], and I can't help but agree. The fact that people seem to treat "Vanilla [Title Here]" with such disdain and yet love Bethesda never ceases to amaze me.

While Platinum does generally make things that are good to watch and play, every new release i see from them convinces me that they dont really know how to do anything else.

I don't mind a one-trick pony as long as the trick is good.

 

[jamail77]

Well, it's ultimately up to the fans whether they want to put someone up on a pedestal, and who am I to say they're wrong.

But yeah, I really don't get the deal with Platinum. And whenever I hear someone say 'Platinum is the only studio that gets it. They're the best developer currently on the scene.' I am too befuddled to even laugh out loud.

You don't have to say they're wrong. The whole point of this discussion is whether you personally think a gaming company has earned or deserves the pedestal fans have thrust upon them. Of course it's going to be subjective. It doesn't have to get mean spirited just because you disagree with fans. Civil disagreement should be a priority for this discussion frankly.

I know exactly what you mean by the way. It's nice they exist, they have their niche and it's something needed in the industry, but they aren't almighty god.

Yeah a lot of ppl just don't "get" Platinum, which is to be expected because they're niche both from a gameplay standpoint but setting / world too the latter of which tends to put most ppl off. And because their games don't break any records when it comes to sales they have to cut back on features and polish and focus on gameplay. Also their games tend to be full of content the sort of stuff that most others nickle and dime as DLC nowadays.

Their upcoming X1 exclusive Scalebound is said to be made with mainstream western tastes in mind so maybe you and others might enjoy them just like Souls, Dragons Dogma and Dead Rising.

I know this was a response to CasualShinji but I can't help responding. I DO "GET" Platinum. I like they exist for the sake of their niche attitude and interesting combination of talent. I've just never been impressed with their games to the extent diehard fans are and it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the fact they're not "western" or "mainstream" enough. I think they deserve to be more financially stable and we need more Platinums in the industry, but other than that I just don't think they're not some breakthrough developer.

There are some who would put their games as the best of all time. I liked Madworld, the 1st ten minutes of Bayonetta that I have played, and Legend of Korra is a slightly better game than I thought it would be. Not a single one of those is anywhere near as good as diehard fans claim they are though and I say that as my opinion by the way; fans are welcome to believe otherwise, which is why we call these things opinions (My experience on these forums has taught me that if I don't clarify this now someone will act as if I'm being all smug and objective and unfair even though I never acted like I was).

It's ironic you say the next Platinum game is being made with the West in mind. I've been on these forums long enough and conversed with Casual Shinji enough to tell you he isn't someone you would call "mainstream west" at all when it comes to his interests. Note: Not speaking for you Casual Shinji, just thought the irony was funny. Frankly, the fact you emphasize this makes me feel like you're just using this excuse as an easy cop out because we're challenging your like of Platinum in a civil manner versus incivility you may have encountered before. That's not to say you can't like Platinum, but you went straight for the "You just don't get them" defense and that tends to indicate insecurity. I don't want to unfairly assume, but, like I said, that's not the best way to disagree.

Platinum is mediocre. Not bad, not great. You could swap characters in any of their games, and there would be no real difference. That's how redundant their work is. Raiden could fit into Bayonnetta, and Bayonetta wouldn't be out of place in Metal Gear Rising.

While Platinum does generally make things that are good to watch and play, every new release i see from them convinces me that they dont really know how to do anything else.

Square Enix for all the obvious reasons. It remains to be seen if they can redeem themselves after they realised that they can keep doing what people used to love them for.

I find PlatinumGames to be highly overpraised. Their games just try so hard to be over-the-top, stylish and hardcore that it usually goes at the expense of polish.

These are very similar reasons to why I don't think Platinum deserves its stature.

I disagree on Square Enix though. I see way too much hate towards them for me to believe they're put on a pedestal by anyone but a minority of fans. Are there really that many diehard fans who do that? I've never seen them.

I don't, actually. One of the long term consequences of me loving Dragon Age 2 is a really relaxed attitude to the tastes of others. There is no shortage of games i don't like and dev's i consistently don't bother with, but i tend to just shrug and say different strokes for different folks.

This thread is an excuse to voice your opinion. Just because other folks have different strokes doesn't mean you can't disagree and still respect said folks. I have a friend who loves Platinum and I can respect that and I get his reasons, but I don't. He, likewise, does the same for me. These topics don't have to involve disregarding opinions and mud slinging at those you disagree with, you know.

I don't mind a one-trick pony as long as the trick is good.

I won't deny the trick is good, but I am now on the 2nd Platinum game I've played and their focus on flashiness seems to make their games lose substance. That's just my opinion of course, feel free to disagree. If this isn't a trend in their games then all the better for my opinion of them, but if it is a trend then I will officially consider their pedestal unearned even though I like their games. Again, this is just my opinion. I have a friend who loves Platinum and we disagree civilly about it. He introduced me to Platinum actually and I am glad I have new games to enjoy as a result even though I think they lack much needed substance.

 

[Magicite Spring]

I won't deny the trick is good, but I am now on the 2nd Platinum game I've played and their focus on flashiness seems to make their games lose substance. That's just my opinion of course, feel free to disagree. If this isn't a trend in their games then all the better for my opinion of them, but if it is a trend then I will officially consider their pedestal unearned even though I like their games. Again, this is just my opinion. I have a friend who loves Platinum and we disagree civilly about it. He introduced me to Platinum actually and I am glad I have new games to enjoy as a result even though I think they lack much needed substance.

The fact that you say that Platnium games have a lack of substance is interesting to me, since I personally feel that they are full of substance. You say you've played 10 minutes of Bayonetta? Bayonetta has one of the deepest combat systems in any game out there. The thing is though is that the game expects you to take the time to learn the systems and mechanics and actually become an expert at it and once you do, Bayonetta become on of the most rewarding, fun games you could ever play. The problem is that most people don't have the time to learn it and so don't get the full experience, and its a combat system based around the player trying to do their best and get the top rankings. Finishing the game isn't the point, it's more finishing the game well that people enjoy.