LGBTQ? That's a new letter right there, 'Q'. I thought it was LGBT? What brand new sexuality did we come up with? 
"Gaming in Color", a Kickstarter Documentary on LGBT+ Gaming
- Thread starter Darken12
- Start date
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[HEADING=2]To all people wallowing about PCness, quotas, or anything of the sort:[/HEADING]
I completely agree with you all about creative freedom. I am not at all in favour of quotas. I do not think that an artist's creativity should be curtailed. I am also very glad that so many of you feel so strongly regarding freedom in art.
However, I have a question for all of you:
Where are you all when we get silenced? When our creative freedoms are curtailed by executives?
Chris Avellone states, regarding Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer [http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?automodule=blog&blogid=1&showentry=120]:
"There are times we've asked to do things with a franchise that have been turned down (we wanted to make Gann in Mask of the Betrayer a bi-sexual, for example, because that felt true to how he perceived love)."
Jim Sterling reports on how game developers get flat-out told that women as protagonists are rejected by execs [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7044-The-Creepy-Cull-of-Female-Protagonists].
These are just two examples that I remember off the top of my head (and for which I can provide tangible evidence). How many other game developers get told "only Bioware can get away with that" or "you have to make the character straight/male/white"? So I ask again:
Why is it that artistic freedom is only defended when it comes to straight, white and male endeavours? Why is it that whenever a mere documentary is being made, people are preemptively crying about PCness, censorship and quotas, but when it comes to marginalised groups being silenced or censored, all the artistic freedom defenders change their tune to "shrug, it's just the way it is"?
So can we please drop that ridiculous line of reasoning? Not only is it inherently flawed, as shown above, it's also completely unrelated to the purpose of a simple documentary.
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I completely agree with you all about creative freedom. I am not at all in favour of quotas. I do not think that an artist's creativity should be curtailed. I am also very glad that so many of you feel so strongly regarding freedom in art.
However, I have a question for all of you:
Where are you all when we get silenced? When our creative freedoms are curtailed by executives?
Chris Avellone states, regarding Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer [http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?automodule=blog&blogid=1&showentry=120]:
"There are times we've asked to do things with a franchise that have been turned down (we wanted to make Gann in Mask of the Betrayer a bi-sexual, for example, because that felt true to how he perceived love)."
Jim Sterling reports on how game developers get flat-out told that women as protagonists are rejected by execs [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7044-The-Creepy-Cull-of-Female-Protagonists].
These are just two examples that I remember off the top of my head (and for which I can provide tangible evidence). How many other game developers get told "only Bioware can get away with that" or "you have to make the character straight/male/white"? So I ask again:
Why is it that artistic freedom is only defended when it comes to straight, white and male endeavours? Why is it that whenever a mere documentary is being made, people are preemptively crying about PCness, censorship and quotas, but when it comes to marginalised groups being silenced or censored, all the artistic freedom defenders change their tune to "shrug, it's just the way it is"?
So can we please drop that ridiculous line of reasoning? Not only is it inherently flawed, as shown above, it's also completely unrelated to the purpose of a simple documentary.
-
Q stands for Queer and, in a pinch, Genderqueer. Queer is a catch-all term for any sexual orientation that is not straight (but might not necessarily fit in gay or bisexual), while Genderqueer is a term for people whose gender expression is neither transexual nor cis-sexual (they aim for androgyny, agenderedness, they might have a fluid gender, etc.). It's more of an umbrella term for people who are not straight, not cis, or neither.Johnny Novgorod said:LGBTQ? That's a new letter right there, 'Q'. I thought it was LGBT? What brand new sexuality did we come up with?
I'm not too interested in it myself, but hey, if homosexuals and transsexuals want a documentary about how they play video games, then knock yourself out. Go for it, and good luck.
Actually, Isabella's relationship with femHawke is probably one of the more accurate depictions of a lesbian couple I've ever seen. For one, the writers actually give attention to the gender involved; manHawke's relationship with Isabella is different to when it's femHawke. It had a very "sisterly" and intimate feel unlike being hamfisted and corny in most same-sex relationships such as Anders'. That romance subplot did nothing for this guy. Same for Zevran and Fenris.thenoblitt said:
Then again, Isabella and Merrill were actually fun to be around while the two guys just whined all the time.
Why does there have to be a point? Why MUST these projects justify their existence? Who here has the authority or the right to do so? Why is it that so many here's first impulse is to say "NO NO NO SHUT UP SHUT UP I DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT SO SHUT UP"?Lethos said:
thenoblitt said:
More like just Fenris and Anders. Zevran's is alright, even if it's an oddly similar story to Isabella's and Merrill is fun to have around. Fenris' and Anders' always felt hamfisted to me.
Interesting, I may even support this. Why? Because I believe LGBT groups are facing much more adversity in general issues and gaming than the feminists. Not to downplay the difficulties they face because they are real and cause problems but society has been moving towards the resolution of these problems for the last century.
LGBT groups have only been able to raise awareness the last few decades and hostility is disturbing and common place, if somebody has the nasty attitude of "women belong in the kitchen" they are seen as outdated and as a fossil and will be mocked. In Western nations its largely socially unacceptable to behave like that, anti equality for LGBT people is still enshrined in law in western nations.
Companies sack people on religious grounds and get away with it, its impossible to get married or get resolutions in divorce settlements or child custody for LGBT people in some cases and a host of other issues. I do not understand all the difficulties they face, both feminists and LGBT groups face a huge wealth of inequality and bad attitudes but as an outsider looking in I think LGBT people have the largest mountain to climb.
I am a believer in equality regardless of the issue though, people are different and the differences need to be recognized and even celebrated but noone should be denied the rights due to them because of those differences.
LGBT groups have only been able to raise awareness the last few decades and hostility is disturbing and common place, if somebody has the nasty attitude of "women belong in the kitchen" they are seen as outdated and as a fossil and will be mocked. In Western nations its largely socially unacceptable to behave like that, anti equality for LGBT people is still enshrined in law in western nations.
Companies sack people on religious grounds and get away with it, its impossible to get married or get resolutions in divorce settlements or child custody for LGBT people in some cases and a host of other issues. I do not understand all the difficulties they face, both feminists and LGBT groups face a huge wealth of inequality and bad attitudes but as an outsider looking in I think LGBT people have the largest mountain to climb.
I am a believer in equality regardless of the issue though, people are different and the differences need to be recognized and even celebrated but noone should be denied the rights due to them because of those differences.
In the Citadel DLC Cortez had one of the best game romance lines ever IMO,SageRuffin said:
He was showing off in a shuttle to Shepard and then told him why he insisted on being his pilot on missions, he told Shep that when he was on the ground he was unstoppable but on the way to the drop he was just a grunt and vulnerable as any soldier. He said he wouldn't trust anyone else with his life and wanted to do it himself. It was very touching really.
Darken12 said:[HEADING=2]To all people wallowing about PCness, quotas, or anything of the sort:[/HEADING]
I completely agree with you all about creative freedom. I am not at all in favour of quotas. I do not think that an artist's creativity should be curtailed. I am also very glad that so many of you feel so strongly regarding freedom in art.
However, I have a question for all of you:
Where are you all when we get silenced? When our creative freedoms are curtailed by executives?
Chris Avellone states, regarding Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer [http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?automodule=blog&blogid=1&showentry=120]:
"There are times we've asked to do things with a franchise that have been turned down (we wanted to make Gann in Mask of the Betrayer a bi-sexual, for example, because that felt true to how he perceived love)."
Jim Sterling reports on how game developers get flat-out told that women as protagonists are rejected by execs [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7044-The-Creepy-Cull-of-Female-Protagonists].
These are just two examples that I remember off the top of my head (and for which I can provide tangible evidence). How many other game developers get told "only Bioware can get away with that" or "you have to make the character straight/male/white"? So I ask again:
Why is it that artistic freedom is only defended when it comes to straight, white and male endeavours? Why is it that whenever a mere documentary is being made, people are preemptively crying about PCness, censorship and quotas, but when it comes to marginalised groups being silenced or censored, all the artistic freedom defenders change their tune to "shrug, it's just the way it is"?
So can we please drop that ridiculous line of reasoning? Not only is it inherently flawed, as shown above, it's also completely unrelated to the purpose of a simple documentary.
-
Q stands for Queer and, in a pinch, Genderqueer. Queer is a catch-all term for any sexual orientation that is not straight (but might not necessarily fit in gay or bisexual), while Genderqueer is a term for people whose gender expression is neither transexual nor cis-sexual (they aim for androgyny, agenderedness, they might have a fluid gender, etc.). It's more of an umbrella term for people who are not straight, not cis, or neither.Johnny Novgorod said:LGBTQ? That's a new letter right there, 'Q'. I thought it was LGBT? What brand new sexuality did we come up with?
You raise alot of very good points sir and I must say I agree completely. Usually when people are like ban the booth girls and those tits! Dont get this wrong! Im quite skeptical. but your right I should also start defending for the other side as well.
I think it comes from the fact that on this site. being a straight white male or not believing that everything sexualized needs to be shamed and thrown under the rug then generally your opinion is considered useless. Id like for some to believe that I can play games like dragons crown and the new tomb raider. that Im not just black or white sexist pig or heartfelt sympathizer. alas thats what people want.
but still your right. if more games are made for others such as women and queer and transexual and whatnot. than those women and so on and so forth whom I disagree with will probally relent and let me have my fun too. more importantly they will be getting theres as well as me getting mine.
when all these factors are takin care of then we can have days were we all just game together and have fun. where sites like kotaku dont get to oversensationalize and profit from controversy. I think a huge step is to find a way to better moderate online games but that seems about as near impossible as convincing all the cod kids that there being dicks and that they should watch all these documentaries till they feel bad.
anywho well said.
Hopefully in the future every Bioware game we get a party member representing all the LGBTQ+, so people of any gender identity or sexuality can enjoy the shallow pseudo dating sim experience their new games offer.
Atleast we'd get like... 40 party members, so we might for once have a decent character or two there.
Atleast we'd get like... 40 party members, so we might for once have a decent character or two there.
Technically, its LGBTTQQ2R. But that's a bit of a mouthful.Requia said:LGBTQ? That's a new letter right there, 'Q'. I thought it was LGBT? What brand new sexuality did we come up with?
All right, time to make a second announcement, because apparently people just love finding reason to complain.
[HEADING=2]To all people protesting about the apparent lack of a point:[/HEADING]
I didn't think I'd actually need to explain this, but documentaries (and educational activities in general) do not need a point. They have an aim or purpose, which is to inform and educate (and, perhaps, to stir emotion in their audience). Education doesn't need a point beyond its purpose to educate. There are documentaries on everything, from beer to shoes to ladles to the bolts that hold underwater construction together. From wide-ranging to incredibly specific, information and education are their own point.
If you aren't interested, that's fine. I'm sure I wouldn't be interested in a documentary you'd find fascinating. But I wouldn't go to a thread discussing that documentary and go "What's the point in this?" with the obvious implication that if I cannot see the point in the documentary, it shouldn't be made. Or that everyone else needs to stop whatever they're doing and justify the existence of this documentary to me. Or a mean-spirited attempt to kill the positive buzz in the thread. Whatever my intentions, it would be, to say the least, rude.
So please, actually think about the things you're posting and how you'd feel if you were on the receiving end of them. Thank you.
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I completely agree that if we had more diversity, Dragon's Crown wouldn't be a problem. Dead or Alive wouldn't be a problem. Because we'd have an equal amount of sexualised men and we'd have an even greater amount of non-sexualised women (and non-sexualised men). Hell, we might even have sexualised and non-sexualised genderqueer people, too. They would be gay, straight, bi, cis, trans and everything in between. You'd have an industry that cares and is actually socially-aware. You might even get them to listen when it comes to treating their consumers right. Diversity is good for everyone, not just for marginalised groups.
And yes, we might yet reach a day where all of this would be far behind us and nobody would have a problem sitting down to game with anyone because they wouldn't feel that every game is the industry giving them a giant middle finger.
I wish documentaries such as these would have an educational effect on the problematic sectors of the gamer demography.
[HEADING=2]To all people protesting about the apparent lack of a point:[/HEADING]
I didn't think I'd actually need to explain this, but documentaries (and educational activities in general) do not need a point. They have an aim or purpose, which is to inform and educate (and, perhaps, to stir emotion in their audience). Education doesn't need a point beyond its purpose to educate. There are documentaries on everything, from beer to shoes to ladles to the bolts that hold underwater construction together. From wide-ranging to incredibly specific, information and education are their own point.
If you aren't interested, that's fine. I'm sure I wouldn't be interested in a documentary you'd find fascinating. But I wouldn't go to a thread discussing that documentary and go "What's the point in this?" with the obvious implication that if I cannot see the point in the documentary, it shouldn't be made. Or that everyone else needs to stop whatever they're doing and justify the existence of this documentary to me. Or a mean-spirited attempt to kill the positive buzz in the thread. Whatever my intentions, it would be, to say the least, rude.
So please, actually think about the things you're posting and how you'd feel if you were on the receiving end of them. Thank you.
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Thank you, I am actually really, really glad this was positively received by someone.rbstewart7263 said:
I completely agree that if we had more diversity, Dragon's Crown wouldn't be a problem. Dead or Alive wouldn't be a problem. Because we'd have an equal amount of sexualised men and we'd have an even greater amount of non-sexualised women (and non-sexualised men). Hell, we might even have sexualised and non-sexualised genderqueer people, too. They would be gay, straight, bi, cis, trans and everything in between. You'd have an industry that cares and is actually socially-aware. You might even get them to listen when it comes to treating their consumers right. Diversity is good for everyone, not just for marginalised groups.
And yes, we might yet reach a day where all of this would be far behind us and nobody would have a problem sitting down to game with anyone because they wouldn't feel that every game is the industry giving them a giant middle finger.
I wish documentaries such as these would have an educational effect on the problematic sectors of the gamer demography.
I am sorry but in my experience peoples attitude to gay gamers is just the same online as it is for straight gamers, I have never felt like I was singled out for my sexuality while playing games and I find it difficult to believe any other gay guy has. All this will be is a bunch of whining morons complaining about how someone called him a fag on call of duty, interspersed with segments about how as a whole the gaming community is 'super proggessive' on issues like this and other self righteous, self indulgent platitudes designed to stroke the egos of middle class pseudo progressive hipsters.MarsAtlas said: