Gay characters in children's cartoons

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Akalistos

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Treblaine said:
"strong anti-discrimination moral."

No, it's very important that kids learn to discriminate. They have to learn to discriminate against Nazis, slave-owners, pedos, and other people who are a destructive force on society and a direct threat to them. A blanket anti-discrimination attitude DOES NOT WORK, it is not practical at all.
WTF! AAAAAAAH!!!
What is a threat to them is also aborted inside cartoon as well. Tho discrimination toward a way of thinking could be disastrous if not right out dangerous. Do you think that the Talibans doesn't discriminate... because they attacked both England and the US under their "YOU PROMOTE VICE" which at this point it something that I have to agree if you believe in what you say. Same thing to Nazis. You see, what link those fundamentalist group are the fact that they DO DISCRIMINATE and therefore, not only would you do a disservice to kids everywhere but you turn them into something that is equally "evil". Your not better than your "evils" when your agenda is the same.

As for the PSA; They are there. Don't follow stranger. Stay near a adult you can trust. Always make sure your parent know where you are. Listen to your parent. Those are covered. HELL! Remember the Phrase
[HEADING=1]And knowing is half the battle![/HEADING]
All that came from PSA that CARTOON HAVE TO SHOWCASE otherwise they cannot being greenlighted.

You say there is another way before you even acknowledge now the X-men gay allegory doesn't actually get through to the generation it targets with it's message.
Yes because children couldn't care less then about sexuality. What's the matter, Do you really want to go around each kid and staple a PRO-GAY panflet on their forhead?
Children need to learn, through storytelling, games and activities not to victimise against homosexuals in particular as well as other groups. As importantly they must learn to stand up against victimisation.
At this point in their developement, they aren't anything and not victimized. You clearly can't see that sexuality isn't a factor in this? They are kid without sexual preference. Kid that are 4 to 10 years old and that you clearly. Kid that still think girl/boy are icky and gross.

Also, Pedophile and Deviant often was exposed to sexuality, either by being victimized to just finding daddy's stack of penthouse. In most of the cased, that is the catalyst of their deviancy... and your suggesting to do the same with children? Try to talk about sexuality without talking about sex... because I guaranty you that you will feel ackward when the child will think that two man living together are friend because they can be. The only difference is Sex and you'll have to explain it. It's unavoidable.


Victimization isn't all about sex and that, I know that you are aware of that. Standing up for gay is a good thing but forcing to make kid understand what sex is and why it shouldn't make them a disservice. Get in mind that when it's matter is during PUBERTY and that is where thing should be. A good way of what your ideas will bring? Go to japan. They are way oversexualized and half the "product" they invent are basically due to that. If you introduce sex too early into a child live, you screw them forever.
Bringbackbuck has you tekken-told on the "family education before puberty" thing.
WHA... I can't make head or tail of that sentence and neither is google. Moving on!

No one is telling kids
"CHOOSE SEXUAL ORIENTATION"
But rather
"DON'T GAY BASH!"
and it's best they are introduced to the CONCEPT of homosexuality in a responsible publication rather than in the schoolyard full of misinformation conjecture. We need to stop victimisation WHERE IT STARTS, and that is before they even reach puberty, that's as far back as I remember hearing gay insults and gay bashing.
Do you realize that they don't even know what gay is? You do, don't you?

"Suspension for any kid calling another one gay."

A zero tolerance policy? Have you any idea what a monumentally bad idea that is? Not only are such draconian punishments far too inflexible, but they destroy children's education with suspensions for honest mistakes where they won't learn what they did wrong. A suspension is such an over-reaction in school is only going to engender bitterness and resentment especially when they get such a harsh punishment for being caught saying it when other friends simply weren't caught. Zero-tolerance policies have decimated entire generations in education as they are far too harsh, the punishment must fit the crime and go too hard and you'll get blow-back.
What, you mean punishing the child won't make them believe they did something wrong? At this point, seeing your hatred filled reply, I don't want to know the alternative of what your thinking... because I believe the schoolyard will give me flashback to Silent Hill One.

The point is that TEENAGER should know better, they are given show where gay people get a preeminent role and where the give the whole GAY ARE OK speech. They are well enough into the development to know what sex is and to understand the concept. Kid wouldn't quit school because they cannot say gay... or if they do, it's wouldn't be their decision as kid everywhere must attend till 16. So, destroying their education? No, It's impossible in the current way civilize nation enforce literacy and school.

Beside, you brought up another point. Kid that want to bully will bully. Whenever their friend get away with it or not. They didn't care about the tolerance/being kind aspect when they were kid and you think that screwing with their mind when they are younger will help? Not a godamned chance! Building resentement over acting like a dick seem preferable to whatever you just proposed.

[/quote]But your very choice of limitation "calling another gay", I'll say this once and hope you learn it:

[HEADING=1]"GAY" IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE AN INSULT[/HEADING]

People willingly self identify as gay! It's like suspending a student for making reference to a black student being black. This rule effectively bans EVER addressing homosexuality in schools. Sweeps it under the rug.[/quote]And to remove that definition, you must get rid of it as an insult. THERE'S NO OTHER WAY.

You have come up with SO MANY convoluted and discredited ideas they all just seem to want to keep the idea of homosexuality out of sight and out of mind. Banning phrases like "gay" doesn't make gays more acceptable, it makes the concept taboo, alien and does not address deep seated prejudices. Dancing around the issue with allegory and platitudes won't work if they aren't given actual examples, and you do not need to go into explicit details about sex.

You can't sweep this issue under the rug.
Sex is a taboo till your old enough to understand. It's even a CRIME to force it onto kid. What your asking is practically to commit a crime. You are in no position to discredit anything. You aren't a fullflegde child psychologist and have absolutely no idea of the consequence of what you are proposing. If such act had any shred of chance of doing what you think it would, it would be actually in motion right now. I suggest you actually get in contact with a real child psychologist before replying because, on my side, i know one. You'll be surprise who would be wrong here.

It's ok to be angry that gay are persecuted, but there's better way the turning a full generation into screwup.
 

Akalistos

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Pedro The Hutt said:
Do I really need to go digging through Wikipedia to prove to you that sexual orientation is something you're born into?
Wikipedia is hardly a reference. What you get may be true but can also be change by the first smoe around that feel it not right. Note FEEL instead of KNOW.
Look, I could take a straight child and bombard it with gay porn day in day out, ten years down the line he or she will still be
Gay and screwed up. Probably will become a pedo due to his sexuality being force to mature too early. Some people with the same experience also had some mental cases... but those case already exist. Point is, they then view homosexuality as "default" and became gay themselves. Hell, they did find a kid that was locked up in a room and when social care when there, she was acting like a animal. What do you think happen?
And also, do some proper research on Japanese culture before throwing out the most clichéd misconceptions about the country. Your ignorance is almost starting to become insulting. Not to mention your homophobia.
Cliché? Do you really think they are cliché? Most country hide their dirty secret to the world to promote tourism but what i said is 100% truth. They are story from people that went there, people that gave their real name. Here's one for free: Guillaume Bergeron. Those thing do exist.

Second. I never said I was against gay and now your insulting me. REPORTED. I said that kid aren't the best time to introduce SEX PSA.
 

Fwee

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A Weary Exile said:
Note:

The recent jokes surrounding the sexual orientation of the character Rainbow Dash from MLP:FiM,
Please note:

The way abbreviation works in articles is that you put the full name in the first time, and THEN you abbreviate. Not everyone knows what the hell you're talking about, and I don't want to have to google everything. (google gets spell-checked?)

And now I'm not even going to look into this, just going to criticize everything other people have posted on this thread.

You brought this on yourselves.
 

Small Waves

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QUINTIX said:
What is wrong with gays accepting that they choose and being proud of that choice? "[insert fetish here] is not a choice" is such a weak defense.
Since when did facts become "weak defenses"? Nobody consciously chooses who or what they are attracted to.

Such an argument could just as easily defend "sexuality" widely understood to be wrong, like incest or hebephilia.
Incest is not so much morally wrong as it is a cultural taboo that can lead to defects down the family line. Royal families had their line cut short due to hemophilia and various birth defects as a result to keeping the family blood "pure". Marrying members within your family has been a social stigma for a while, and the health consequences is just the icing on the cake. Hebephilia violates age of consent laws in most first-world countries.

Name one major animated "g" rated feature length film with wide critical acclaim that show two guys or gals spit-swapping, instead of, say, the typical prince/princess.
There are none.
 

Akalistos

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Treblaine said:
Akalistos said:
I assume you mean Sex, but no. If you put sexuality into children cartoon, you CAN'T really done it without the Sex aspect. Like light and dark, you need to introduce them to sex before getting to the orientations. You may tries as you like, but you wouldn't be able to define sexuality without sex, because they are the same concept to begin with.
Uuuuh, yes you can.

Children have heard of the concept of marriage LOOOOONG before they learn about the "birds and the bees".

All you have to do is say "David and Michael are going to get married" that's it. You don't have to mention honeymoon activities nor anything explicit, why the hell would you have to.

If a kid picked up a wedding invitation:

"Peter and Jane are getting married"

would the kid really say:
"marriage? Why are they getting married, are they going to 'do something' afterwards, I MUST KNOW or this whole thing makes absolutely NO SENSE to me! For some illogical reason I cannot comprehend the idea that two people love each other and want that recognised by their family and friends in a big party!"

Gimme a break, I'll show you exactly how to introduce it:

David: "Welcome to our village Fluorescent Ninja warrior, I am Master Dave and this is my husband Steve"
Naruto: "Hello Master Dave. Hello Steve. I have come from the land of Hyrule on a quest to blah blah blah, the exposition about plot"

It's that easy to have a conversation without it turning to sex.
What's an Husband?
Edit: yes, I'm taking the role of the child to prove you are wrong
 

Fwee

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Kipohippo said:
Plus, i dont want to have to explain ANYTHING about sex to my children. Keep it simple.
Sing along with me:
Teeeeenaaaaaage Pregnancyyyyyyy~
Unwanted kids all oooover the trailerrrrrrr!
I'm assuming you don't have kids yet, but if someone doesn't get past their own discomfort with the way they got on this planet in order to raise their children to be well-informed decision makers, then they're BAD PARENTS.
 

Fwee

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Radeonx said:
I'm indifferent to gay characters in TV shows, as long as the show isn't throwing the fact that that they are gay in your face over and over. Being gay is one thing, but flaunting about bragging/showing off that you are gay is stupid and annoying.
... Have you even LOOKED at your avatar?
 

CarlMin

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I'm surprised the OP spoke of animes and didn't mention any of the more obvious examples from, let's say, Disney films:

 

Small Waves

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Akalistos said:
What's an Husband?
Edit: yes, I'm taking the role of the child to prove you are wrong
A husband is a man who is married to another person. For example, your daddy is my husband, which makes me his wife. A wife is a girl who is married to another person. Now, if that man is marrying another man, they are both husbands because they are married to each other, and if a girl is marrying another girl, they are both wives.

Also, I knew what "husband" meant before I was in preschool. A child would either have to be three or naive, and if they are the former introducing the subject is a pointless endeavor since they probably won't remember it in two years.
 

Akalistos

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Small Waves said:
Akalistos said:
What's an Husband?
Edit: yes, I'm taking the role of the child to prove you are wrong
A husband is a man who is married to another person. For example, your daddy is my husband, which makes me his wife. A wife is a girl who is married to another person. Now, if that man is marrying another man, they are both husbands because they are married to each other, and if a girl is marrying another girl, they are both wives.

Also, I knew what "husband" meant before I was in preschool. No child is this naive.
So, they are friend?
 

Small Waves

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Akalistos said:
Small Waves said:
Akalistos said:
What's an Husband?
Edit: yes, I'm taking the role of the child to prove you are wrong
A husband is a man who is married to another person. For example, your daddy is my husband, which makes me his wife. A wife is a girl who is married to another person. Now, if that man is marrying another man, they are both husbands because they are married to each other, and if a girl is marrying another girl, they are both wives.

Also, I knew what "husband" meant before I was in preschool. No child is this naive.
So, they are friend?
Really good friends who share the same relationship as Mommy and Daddy.
 

Imp_Emissary

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I think its a good idea. If you have a few well made characters that just happen to be gay without the usual "HEY! I'M SUPER FABULOUS!" crap that I am sick of having to watch in cartoons or other shows that have "gay" characters (Its not funny, its painful to listen to), then that would be ok. I'm not going to be scared to talk to my kids about the whole thing. You don't turn gay you just are. The only choice you have about it is to either be who you are, or live a lie.

Also, I have one question; Who the hell is Rainbow Dash, and why do I feel this has something to do with all the pony avatars?
 

Akalistos

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Fwee said:
Kipohippo said:
Plus, i dont want to have to explain ANYTHING about sex to my children. Keep it simple.
Sing along with me:
Teeeeenaaaaaage Pregnancyyyyyyy~
Unwanted kids all oooover the trailerrrrrrr!
I'm assuming you don't have kids yet, but if someone doesn't get past their own discomfort with the way they got on this planet in order to raise their children to be well-informed decision makers, then they're BAD PARENTS.
Kid pregnancy was around for millennia. Hell, it was the practice in the middle age. Some kid ofter sold for farm animals. Hell, one of my friend and I had the luxe to look at an old wedding list kept by priest. I went back to the 1490... We found a wedding between a 40 year old and a 14.

And in the 1900, kid where sent to the relatives where they would give birth and then give their child into adoption before being allowed back into the family. It's hardly an excuse.
 

Akalistos

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Small Waves said:
Akalistos said:
Small Waves said:
Akalistos said:
What's an Husband?
Edit: yes, I'm taking the role of the child to prove you are wrong
A husband is a man who is married to another person. For example, your daddy is my husband, which makes me his wife. A wife is a girl who is married to another person. Now, if that man is marrying another man, they are both husbands because they are married to each other, and if a girl is marrying another girl, they are both wives.

Also, I knew what "husband" meant before I was in preschool. No child is this naive.
So, they are friend?
Really good friends who share the same relationship as Mommy and Daddy.
What? Like you sleep in the same bed?
 

Radoh

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Imp Emissary said:
Also, I have one question; Who the hell is Rainbow Dash, and why do I feel this has something to do with all the pony avatars?
Rainbow Dash is the rainbow-maned pony from the show My Little Pony. You should do some research on it.
 

Radoh

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Akalistos said:
Small Waves said:
Akalistos said:
Small Waves said:
Akalistos said:
What's an Husband?
Edit: yes, I'm taking the role of the child to prove you are wrong
A husband is a man who is married to another person. For example, your daddy is my husband, which makes me his wife. A wife is a girl who is married to another person. Now, if that man is marrying another man, they are both husbands because they are married to each other, and if a girl is marrying another girl, they are both wives.

Also, I knew what "husband" meant before I was in preschool. No child is this naive.
So, they are friend?
Really good friends who share the same relationship as Mommy and Daddy.
What? Like you sleep in the same bed?
Knock this off, you aren't convincing anyone over to your side of this with this pedantic little train of thought.
 

Pedro The Hutt

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@Akalistos, I think you lost me, and I lost you.

Homosexuality in children's entertainment =/= sex. What's wrong with homosexual characters in children's shows other than teaching children that it's okay to be that? That they don't need to feel any shame in the event that later in life they develop warm feelings for someone of the same gender? It's not like they're humping each other on screen. And you can't, and shouldn't hide them from any homosexual couples you might encounter in the street or whatever other aspect of real life.

And well, if you can't agree with that, then I do apologise for thinking that you think there is something deeply wrong with homosexuality.
 

Therumancer

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BringBackBuck said:
Therumancer said:
The bottom line is that the most you see at this level is friendship as I pointed out, there are no gender walls involved in that. When you start trying to direct sexual themes and propaganda at pre-sexual humans, I have an issue with that. While anti-gay overall, understand I'd have issues with someone wanting to put heterosexual sexual themes into this kind of programming so kids would be more "open and accepting to the idea"... any way you define it and from any position it's totally borked. Keep sex and sexual politics out of children's programming, leave it for the teen level where it belongs, those are issues to be introduced when kids are developing sexually, not beforehand.
I agree with this sentiment, but draw a different conclusion.

Children's programming should not be sexual in any way at all.

However inserting homosexual characters into a cartoon could be done very simply and in no way sexual.

For example: What if Pingu had 2 daddy penguins instead of a daddy & mummy penguin? You wouldn't ever write a story that has anything to do with the fact that both penguins are daddies. I reckon 90% of kids wouldn't even notice. But for maybe a few little children who had already noticed this in a real life context they might say: "hey Pingu has 2 daddies just like how that kid Michael at pre-school has 2 daddies who come to pick him up sometimes".

No harm done. Kids aren't watching gay porn, and maybe a few children will see this behaviour as acceptable and in turn make someone's life a little bit easier.

Well, see the problem is that your dealing with what amounts to an aberration of nature here. It's by no means normal, whether or not society chooses to accept it or not. I think even the more sane segements of the gay rights community get that.

The thing is that when children are coming up your teaching them the basics of human behavior. That involves a mommy and a daddy. Exceptions come along later when the kids get owner. The tiny exception of someone being raised by a pair of homosexuals is something to deal with later, in the teen years, where it is covered.

What your basically saying in this paticular case is trying to portray this as a normal behavior, when it's not, it represents an exception to the rules. You establish what those rules are, so kids understand family structures, and are ready to be introduced to how babies are made based on what they have seen, rather than throwing this kind of thing out there so early.

What's more I'll also be blunt, huge numbers of people don't like gays even if they are tolerant. I myself am moderatly anti-gay and refused to be cowed by political correctness. You start bringing this issue into the lives of children before they are ready to learn about the exceptions and your asking for it. There is no way around the fact that this amounts to gay propaganda even when it isn't sexual.

While there are doubtlessly exceptions out there, few parents want to explain why a character in a cartoon has two daddies. Then your put in the situation where a kid asks "oh gee, does this mean two daddies can call the stork too", yeah that's something parents want to deal with.

Even if I wasn't anti-gay, there is a differance between tolerance of something that is differant, and the acceptance of something as normal. The shift of moving from tolerance to trying to promote homosexuality as a normal behavior is one of my problems with the gay rights movement as it stands now. Moving from "we just want to be able to exist in society without being beaten down or losing our jobs just for being gay" to "we want equal representation despite our numbers on TV shows for children, and people to be told we're normal" represents
a very differant issue.

I could say more on the subject, but it would get further afield. and end with an off subject arguement that would result in a lot of people getting miffed and end with everyone having to agree to disagree on the subject and move on. I've gotten into gay rights discussions here before, if your curious there are probably some posts further back that have my overall position in them.
 

rutger5000

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Nah wouldn't do that. It's the parents responsibility to teach a child about sex and sexuality. If they find that difficult they can find help. But just tell your child about sex and such at the age of say 5 or 6 and then also talk about homosexuality. Easy-peasy, job done. Don't give the media the responsibility of raising your child.