Gay Marriage, Child Molestors, Torture, Abortion & Nihilism
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Let me parse some of the more common replies made without reading a single post in the thread:
1) "But my god, those things are unpleasant!" (IE: "It's touchy...")
DUH. That's kind of the point. The fact that they give people pause for thought (even hesitation) is exactly what makes them good subject matter. Most especially in a game where there's more potential to explore those concepts than anywhere else.
Cue 400 dipshits (whose sole conception of how to implement any of the above concepts into a game is to award gamers 10 pts a second for performing the activity) crying that it isn't feasible/possible to implement.
2) "Gay relationships have been done!" (Fable! Sims!)
Yeah. Okay. First off: the depth and complexity of relationships in Fable/The Sims is about the same as that of your average color matching game. Here's what it's like romancing a guy as another guy in Fable III:
Walk up to prospective partner. Hold x to flirt. Hold y to whisper sweet nothings. Hold x to commit. (All of this is happening in muted silence mind you) Now hold y to propose... Now press X to have sex! Fade to black.
Don't tell me that improvement isn't needed.
3) "GO TORTURE A CAT YOU SICK FUCK!" (Go play Manhunt or something *dirty look*...)
A not small number of people seem to read my wanting to see controversial subject matter discussed and examined in mass media as depravity/sadism. And to that I can only say... go fuck yourself. With a poisonous plant ideally. You're missing the point, and you're hurting my feelings.
1) "But my god, those things are unpleasant!" (IE: "It's touchy...")
DUH. That's kind of the point. The fact that they give people pause for thought (even hesitation) is exactly what makes them good subject matter. Most especially in a game where there's more potential to explore those concepts than anywhere else.
Cue 400 dipshits (whose sole conception of how to implement any of the above concepts into a game is to award gamers 10 pts a second for performing the activity) crying that it isn't feasible/possible to implement.
2) "Gay relationships have been done!" (Fable! Sims!)
Yeah. Okay. First off: the depth and complexity of relationships in Fable/The Sims is about the same as that of your average color matching game. Here's what it's like romancing a guy as another guy in Fable III:
Walk up to prospective partner. Hold x to flirt. Hold y to whisper sweet nothings. Hold x to commit. (All of this is happening in muted silence mind you) Now hold y to propose... Now press X to have sex! Fade to black.
Don't tell me that improvement isn't needed.
3) "GO TORTURE A CAT YOU SICK FUCK!" (Go play Manhunt or something *dirty look*...)
A not small number of people seem to read my wanting to see controversial subject matter discussed and examined in mass media as depravity/sadism. And to that I can only say... go fuck yourself. With a poisonous plant ideally. You're missing the point, and you're hurting my feelings.
Many of these subject can be 'implied' along with the regular storyline, torture is the closest we can get to any of these subject. I never played, but I heard the manhunt games were doing a bit here and there. There was also the first Fatal Frame, which I did play, and throughout you saw how other people were tortured as part of that effed up ritual and in the parts afterward.
Women being torn asunder by ropes at 5 points of the body, how did we not get a media outcry for it? Then there was the idea of Blinded, a ghost who tracked you by sound all the while screaming "MY EYES, I CAN'T SEE!" there was a scene where you actually saw/found out why she was blind in the first place, and let me tell you, a mask with sharp wooden stakes was involved...
As to the other bits of subject matter, Nihilism is the philosophy that nothing has any deeper meaning, also associated with despair and the unwillingness to do anything, so a game about empty existance and the like would probably be depressing and have almost no point in it. My mind conjures a game called The Graveyard, in it you play an elderly woman walking through a graveyard to sit on a bench with a 50% chance of
So that was pretty Nihilistic to me.
Women being torn asunder by ropes at 5 points of the body, how did we not get a media outcry for it? Then there was the idea of Blinded, a ghost who tracked you by sound all the while screaming "MY EYES, I CAN'T SEE!" there was a scene where you actually saw/found out why she was blind in the first place, and let me tell you, a mask with sharp wooden stakes was involved...
As to the other bits of subject matter, Nihilism is the philosophy that nothing has any deeper meaning, also associated with despair and the unwillingness to do anything, so a game about empty existance and the like would probably be depressing and have almost no point in it. My mind conjures a game called The Graveyard, in it you play an elderly woman walking through a graveyard to sit on a bench with a 50% chance of
passing away while peacefully listening to music.
WTF? Since when has "we're not letting you kill kids" = "children are automatically innocent and good"? Skyrim won't let you kill kids and they are anything BUT innocent! One is a gloomy snarker who speaks with demons, one performs a grisly ritual with his mother's bones to summon an assassin, another is a bully who regularly torments her peers unless you intervene...Emiscary said:
No, child immortality is the dev's way of saying "we're not indulging your sadistic fantasies, you bastard." It speaks more ill of society that people want these things in games, not that games disallow it mechanically.
Captcha: "know thyself"
I had to laugh at how you included "gay marriage" in there, as though it is on equal moral or social standing with child molestation and torture. Besides, tons of games have addressed it to some degree.
Child Molestation.... Ummm, you could try Rapelay, I suppose.
Torture has been featured quite prominently in a lot of games. The original MGS comes to mind. You should check out Dungeoneers: Beautiful Escape. It's an indie game made in RPGmaker about a subculture of snuff film directors. The game is flawed but it's a really cool concept.
As for nihilism. I don't know, Dark Souls?
Child Molestation.... Ummm, you could try Rapelay, I suppose.
Torture has been featured quite prominently in a lot of games. The original MGS comes to mind. You should check out Dungeoneers: Beautiful Escape. It's an indie game made in RPGmaker about a subculture of snuff film directors. The game is flawed but it's a really cool concept.
As for nihilism. I don't know, Dark Souls?
What do these things have in common? No game (that I've ever heard of anyway) has ever made a serious attempt at addressing any of them.majora13 said:I had to laugh at how you included "gay marriage" in there, as though it is on equal moral or social standing with child molestation and torture. Besides, tons of games have addressed it to some degree.
Child Molestation.... Ummm, you could try Rapelay, I suppose.
Torture has been featured quite prominently in a lot of games. The original MGS comes to mind. You should check out Dungeoneers: Beautiful Escape. It's an indie game made in RPGmaker about a subculture of snuff film directors. The game is flawed but it's a really cool concept.
As for nihilism. I don't know, Dark Souls?
And that's where the similarities end.
Mostly it's just there because Americans (and by extension most big gaming companies) get their panties in a twist over it alot, so it's rarely brought up.
Also this:
2) "Gay relationships have been done!" (Fable! Sims!)
Yeah. Okay. First off: the depth and complexity of relationships in Fable/The Sims is about the same as that of your average color matching game. Here's what it's like romancing a guy as another guy in Fable III:
Walk up to prospective partner. Hold x to flirt. Hold y to whisper sweet nothings. Hold x to commit. (All of this is happening in muted silence mind you) Now hold y to propose... Now press X to have sex! Fade to black.
Don't tell me that improvement isn't needed.
(And don't even THINK of bringing up Dragon Age 2. Having everyone in the game be omnisexual kinda makes it not count.)
That's exactly the reason they HAVEN'T done it.Emiscary said:
That's the same reason that politicians avoid those topics like the plague and try to give as little insight as to their beliefs on the subject as possible, because while half may agree, the other half will despise your opinion.
you do know the legal age of consent in japan is 16 right?? Then again comes in the name rapelay were you don't have consent... yeah i would rather cut off my own nuts then play pile of broken programming,ill intent garbage.majora13 said:I had to laugh at how you included "gay marriage" in there, as though it is on equal moral or social standing with child molestation and torture. Besides, tons of games have addressed it to some degree.
Child Molestation.... Ummm, you could try Rapelay, I suppose.
Torture has been featured quite prominently in a lot of games. The original MGS comes to mind. You should check out Dungeoneers: Beautiful Escape. It's an indie game made in RPGmaker about a subculture of snuff film directors. The game is flawed but it's a really cool concept.
As for nihilism. I don't know, Dark Souls?
I'm not saying that those who play the game are necessarily in favor of those actions; I'm just pointing out the artistic futility of a game company saying, "Here, shoot this guy. Isn't that fun? ALSO WAR IS BAD."Emiscary said:
If you enjoy doing something in a video game, then you can't also tack on any kind of exploration of the moral worth of the action without it being trite and tacky. You couldn't make a game where you went around raping people to get to the next level and then try and twist it into some kind of "exploration" or "examination" of the horrible effects of rape.
That's an extreme example, but the point still stands. So while I don't mind the inclusion of rape, torture, abortion, etc. in video games as story elements, to include them as part of the entertainment potential of the player character immediately negates any kind of moral message the game may try and express.
I don't think you're getting it. OP doesn't exactly say "make any of these a central mechanic and point of entertainment for a game". He is saying "a game should address them". Big difference. Torture shouldn't be the crux of a game to be addressed. Hell, it may very well be addressed if used on the PC. I doubt the players would feel enjoyment...well at least a lot of them wouldn't. Modern Warfare features that nuke level. Were you entertained by it? I doubt it. Was it showing the silent horror of a nuclear weapon going on? Yes, it did. It managed to addressed the matter and not be "part of the entertainment potential", so the message stood, did it not? At least I believe it did, others, too.peruvianskys said:
EDIT:
Addressing =/= about.Sober Thal said:
Read above for more.
Gay Marriage: I don't think there's been a game about Strait Marriage yet, one step at a time. Unless you count the Sims. but you can get gay married in the Sims 2 anyway. I don't see how much fun a game that was only about marriage would be. Unless you were going to go the flash based Castle Crashers style direction. Call it Bride Battle, except the objective is to get down the isle to another woman.
Child Molesters: I'm sure there's been some Japanese visual novel dating sim where the... um, "Participants" in said date aren't of legal age. I suppose that would count.
Torture: Torture as a theme can be found just about anywhere you look but as a very pointed hard to ignore example in gaming, Dark souls. Dark Souls (And potentially Damon's Souls, I haven't played it) is a game specifically about torture. Torturing the player, torturing the player character, the player character torturing the world. Every aspect of that game is designed to be punishing, and it's done for a reason.
Catherine was a game about torturing men for not wanting families.
Abortion: There's a particular way you can play Catherine that can put a pretty heavy abortion focus on the narrative. There have been games about preventing pregnancy. If I can revisit what I said about gay marriage, I don't think a game that was only about abortion would have much going on in it. Unless it was a Carmageddon style driving game where you get points by mowing down the Pro-Lifers blocking your path on your way to the Abortion Clinic.
Nihilism: Final Fantasy 7 is basically Nihilism the game. In most JRPG's you struggle against some form of nihilism or another. but in FF7 you just sort of wallow in it for the duration of the game.
And if the "Extended Cut" DLC for Mass Effect 3 doesn't make things better you can call the Mass Effect series a game about nihilism.
Child Molesters: I'm sure there's been some Japanese visual novel dating sim where the... um, "Participants" in said date aren't of legal age. I suppose that would count.
Torture: Torture as a theme can be found just about anywhere you look but as a very pointed hard to ignore example in gaming, Dark souls. Dark Souls (And potentially Damon's Souls, I haven't played it) is a game specifically about torture. Torturing the player, torturing the player character, the player character torturing the world. Every aspect of that game is designed to be punishing, and it's done for a reason.
Catherine was a game about torturing men for not wanting families.
Abortion: There's a particular way you can play Catherine that can put a pretty heavy abortion focus on the narrative. There have been games about preventing pregnancy. If I can revisit what I said about gay marriage, I don't think a game that was only about abortion would have much going on in it. Unless it was a Carmageddon style driving game where you get points by mowing down the Pro-Lifers blocking your path on your way to the Abortion Clinic.
Nihilism: Final Fantasy 7 is basically Nihilism the game. In most JRPG's you struggle against some form of nihilism or another. but in FF7 you just sort of wallow in it for the duration of the game.
And if the "Extended Cut" DLC for Mass Effect 3 doesn't make things better you can call the Mass Effect series a game about nihilism.
1. Gay marriage: How do you focus a GAME around gay marriage and why would you want to? A game which focuses on marriage in general sounds pretty lame, and the controversy of it being "gay" marriage doesn't make it anymore interesting for me.
2. Torture: I'm pretty sure games do this already.
3. Abortion: What? What would you do in the game, get abortions or would you give abortions....
4. Child molesters: To sad and painful a subject for to many people. Or at least I wouldn't play it.
5. Nihilism: Fuck nihilism.
2. Torture: I'm pretty sure games do this already.
3. Abortion: What? What would you do in the game, get abortions or would you give abortions....
4. Child molesters: To sad and painful a subject for to many people. Or at least I wouldn't play it.
5. Nihilism: Fuck nihilism.
Address =/= focus.TheVioletBandit said:
Sheesh, I wouldn't have thought it was a hard concept to grasp.
Dunno, the age of consent in Japan is low, I think it's 13 or something. Which means that any teenager would be "legal". Then again, I wouldn't put it past them to have a game with characters who are even younger. Say, 12 to deal with the whole "feels right, but it's wrong" angle. Or the characters may even be 8 or something, who knows.Mikeyfell said:
I don't think OP means that kind of torture (not sure, as I haven't played those games). I think he's talking more "traditional" torture - waterboarding, sleep deprivation, heavy objects being applied to bones, pliers being applied to nails. That sort of stuff.Mikeyfell said:
Marriage would be hard to touch on, but certainly homosexual couples in games could be more common.
Child molesters . . . I think we have an easy opportunity just to turn that into revenge fiction, but it could be done.
Torture: Addressed in Metal Gear frequently, and with every bit of realism in tone (if not content), except lacking an option to lie.
Abortion: I have a bad feeling that a game about abortion would be a bad horror game that was pure right-wing propaganda, but again, the right hands.
Nihilism: Almost every single JRPG of any importance or note has the subtextual distinction between Existentialism (heroes), and Nihilism (villains), as it's main conflict. The ideas of nihilism are often spouted upon at length by the JRPG villain, though the existentialist counter is usually said more simply, because as we all know, Villains Are Poetic and Good Is Dumb. That said, there's a reason the motto of Xenogears is "Stand tall and shake the heavens!" though that game is a little more intellectually informed than others. (This is an essay I've been meaning to write for a while, thanks for the reminder.)
Child molesters . . . I think we have an easy opportunity just to turn that into revenge fiction, but it could be done.
Torture: Addressed in Metal Gear frequently, and with every bit of realism in tone (if not content), except lacking an option to lie.
Abortion: I have a bad feeling that a game about abortion would be a bad horror game that was pure right-wing propaganda, but again, the right hands.
Nihilism: Almost every single JRPG of any importance or note has the subtextual distinction between Existentialism (heroes), and Nihilism (villains), as it's main conflict. The ideas of nihilism are often spouted upon at length by the JRPG villain, though the existentialist counter is usually said more simply, because as we all know, Villains Are Poetic and Good Is Dumb. That said, there's a reason the motto of Xenogears is "Stand tall and shake the heavens!" though that game is a little more intellectually informed than others. (This is an essay I've been meaning to write for a while, thanks for the reminder.)
Also, I'm sorry, you can't go and say that nihilistic villains are pissy and whiny, because pissy is literally half of the entire philosophy.
Hopelessness and oblivion are the themes of countless games, they just don't endorse them, namely because any game whose story could be said to have a theme is written by someone moderately intelligent who knows that nihilism is bullshit.
That said, with the River ending, Silent Hill 2 is absolutely a nihilistic video game.
Hopelessness and oblivion are the themes of countless games, they just don't endorse them, namely because any game whose story could be said to have a theme is written by someone moderately intelligent who knows that nihilism is bullshit.
That said, with the River ending, Silent Hill 2 is absolutely a nihilistic video game.
We're aware of that, and we're giving you examples of it. Since the more discreet material isn't doing it for you, we just assume you want something much more obvious. Honestly, you need to sit down and really try to clarify what on earth it is you're talking about and what you want.Emiscary said: