Genetic engineering & slavery

[Bobular]

I've been reading discussions on genetic engineering recently and it seems like things we thought would be impossible may be possible in the future. This combined with some sci-fi I have been reading has made me wonder whether we would ever be able to genetically engineer a slave sub-race of humanity, people who would be bread to be adept at their task and unquestioning to their masters and the morels of keeping slaves that want to be slaves, kind of like most of the house elves from Harry Potter. I think if your going to engineer a slave race your going to want to be able to control them.

Would you see it being forced on the poor to turn the lower classes into obedient slaves or could it be breading organic machines in factories that are as easily replaceable as a truck? Am I being pessimistic and you see genetics heading in a different way (I'm not actually against genetic engineering of humans, I just unfortunately see it heading towards making the rich better than the poor in every way and the poor therefore having no way to compete with the rich).

 

[DefunctTheory]

We had a similar thread recently, though as a Paragon Fury sponsored discussion, it involved quite a few more boobs.

In any case... is it going to be possible soon? Probably not until everyone here is old and gray, at least. Should we do it? No. I find it morally objectionable to create a sentient being simply to enslave it, even if part of that creation in instilling a wish to be enslaved.

But here's the thing - Would we? Seems unlikely. Scientist have to fight tooth and nail just to play with human/animal genetic material for minor things like growing tissue. The sun will burn out before the public ever gets behind straight up trans-human experiments, let alone a concerted effort to create sentient beings.

And perhaps a more important question - Why would be bother? When we get to the point of trans-human genetics, or creating new species, surely we'll have the capacity to engineer species to do out work without being sentient at all. Sentients, in fact, would probably do nothing but hinder such workers - It's a high maintenance evolutionary trait. Emotions, breeding urges, the need to socialize... and dozens of other traits too numerous to mention... it's all unnecessary. Just package that does nothing but get in the way of the job at hand. So why build it into any slave race? Seems like something we could just ignore in favor of some dumb biological thing that runs on genetically programmed instinct rather then brute brain power.

 

[JoJo]

On the whole, I think non-sentient androids are more likely to be our 'slaves' of choice rather than genetically engineered beings. Easily replaceable and repairable, no having to wait two decades for them to become capable of useful work and no need to support them in their old age either. Besides, a lot of people are already unreasonably uncomfortable about genetically engineering their food or curing diseases with genetic techniques, I can't see widespread acceptable of creating a slave race any time soon.

 

[the December King]

I was entertaining the possibility in another thread, in regards to colonizing space (though it could be applied to any hostile environment). Making humans into shapes and forms that compliment a new environment is a romantic notion, but the reality of these situations will probably be far more boring (IE: no one will be allowed to do it, no one will be able to afford to do it, will use nano tech to make safe places for us in our current forms, terraforming the entire environment until it is safe for us in our current forms, etc.)

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

I'm confused why the first place we go to with genetic engineering is slavery. What about curing disease and crippling injuries? Fixing blindness and mental retardation in utero. That sorta thing.

I mean Star trek and mass effect had genetic alterting and they never made Borg and Servitors to fix the pipes. I'd guess everything will be completely automated before genetic engineered chrono gladiators are a thing.

 

[DefunctTheory]

I mean Star trek and mass effect had genetic alterting and they never made Borg and Servitors to fix the pipes. I'd guess everything will be completely automated before genetic engineered chrono gladiators are a thing.

Well, Star Trek had the opposite problem, where they made Super Humans that quickly fucked everything up. And Mass Effect ignores genetic engineering in favor of intentionally exposing populations to Eezo to create super soldiers.

EDIT: And Star Trek did address this problem, though not directly - Both androids and holograms are created sentient and then forced (Or in the androids case, they attempted to force) into servitude. Which is that same core problem here - Genetic engineering is just the tech, it's not the philosophical problem that we're discussing.

 

[Catnip1024]

Yeah, as mentioned above, since we are all going to lose our jobs to robots anyway, there isn't really much point having an army of genetic house elves. Except maybe to help us fight the robots when they come for us... No, whoever is in charge is far more likely to cull the poor as soon as the robots have taken over the cleaning and the cooking, than waste money trying to get them to do things robots are better at.

As for ethically would we do it, in the west, in the current climate, no. And we shouldn't. Whether certain other nations / groups would be more than happy to do it, of course they would. You could have child soldiers that don't go crying about their parents, etc. It's just a question of whether they could scrape together the money and resources to give it a go, and how much of a stance the rest of the world took against it.

 

[Recusant]

Shen-ji Yang, is that you? I thought the Genejack was still a couple of decades away, at least. Genetic tampering brings with it a whole host of ethical questions. Robotics engineering does not (though some of that is questionable; why should we see life we created as less valuable? A machine that's intended to last- especially one doing dangerous work, like the minesweeping, bomb disposal, and firefighting we increasingly have robots doing, has to have some sense of self-preservation, and thus must at least have some analogue of fear. A sub-human intelligence level may let you skirt the worst of the issues, but not all of them- there are still animal cruelty laws, after all.

Here's a sub-question: is the moral difficulty lessened if they're not bred from human stock? If, say, we revive Neanderthals, and modify them? Denisovians? Proto-chimps? And what if it's not pushing down, but raising up- if crippling a monkey is too much, how about uplifting a pigeon?

 

[Asita]

That seems incredibly unlikely. As noted above, the payoff for such breeding takes far too long to be worthwhile as an end goal (barring, naturally, the plethora of ethical concerns with such a goal in the first place). If it happened at all, it likely would be the result of a few generations worth of prejudice and strife born of 'othering' those with altered genes. That being said, it's far more likely that instead of forcing genetic modification on the impoverished and the modified would be servitors to the unmodified, that the modified would have a competitive edge over the unmodified and be elevated above them. Think Gattaca, wherein those with genetic modification were seen as "Valid" and those without were seen as "Invalid".

One would hope that neither scenario would come to pass, but it seems more likely that genetic modification would be treated as a path to superiority rather than a tool of subjugation.

 

[Level 7 Dragon]

I was entertaining the possibility in another thread, in regards to colonizing space (though it could be applied to any hostile environment). Making humans into shapes and forms that compliment a new environment is a romantic notion, but the reality of these situations will probably be far more boring (IE: no one will be allowed to do it, no one will be able to afford to do it, will use nano tech to make safe places for us in our current forms, terraforming the entire environment until it is safe for us in our current forms, etc.)

Actually, though current gene therapy is nothing like it is depicted in fiction, it might actually turn out rather cheap. Mostly because it requires a retrovirus, which is fairly easy to produce.

Something like the mass gene modification of the United States from Fallout can actually become a reality. However it being a good idea or not is a completely different question entierly.

 

[FalloutJack]

Cross all of the moral quantry in this with Blade Runner. You make a bunch of human-like beings and, sooner or later, it opens up with them either wanting to blend in and be human or supplant the human race.

 

[Thaluikhain]

To extend this a little, would it be morally right to create them for a set purpose? To make someone that thought it was honourable to die for one's country, that really wanted to be a sex slave, or that would believe and vote for you...despite otherwise being a normalish human being.

 

[MHR]

I think genetic engineering represents just a few more complex concerns than the mere possibility of slavery, don't you?

Nobody likes slavery today. With the STUPID number of Americans answering polls not believe in climate change or the need for vaccines, if you took a poll to the same people asking if they wanted slavery back, I'd be willing to bet you at least 99% would still say no.

Slavery isn't palatable anymore. Being thin, pretty, smart, friendly, normal and all-around appreciated very much is. That's what we should be concerned about. With just a few simple tweaks of our genes, people could be made so much better by artificial means. This has the most potential to be of immediate concern. When we start engineering designer people the same way that we engineer our crops.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I think genetic engineering represents just a few more complex concerns than the mere possibility of slavery, don't you?

Nobody likes slavery today. With the STUPID number of Americans answering polls not believe in climate change or the need for vaccines, if you took a poll to the same people asking if they wanted slavery back, I'd be willing to bet you at least 99% would still say no.

Ah, but whether or not they'd object to the practice of slavery under another name is rather less certain. Many people holding fascist ideologies won't say they are fascist, for example.

 

[Paragon Fury]

We had a similar thread recently, though as a Paragon Fury sponsored discussion, it involved quite a few more boobs.

Thus making mine the superior version of this topic.

/quicklydeflatingselfpride

 

[MHR]

I think genetic engineering represents just a few more complex concerns than the mere possibility of slavery, don't you?

Nobody likes slavery today. With the STUPID number of Americans answering polls not believe in climate change or the need for vaccines, if you took a poll to the same people asking if they wanted slavery back, I'd be willing to bet you at least 99% would still say no.

Ah, but whether or not they'd object to the practice of slavery under another name is rather less certain. Many people holding fascist ideologies won't say they are fascist, for example.

I already read that book. It's called "A Brave New World." It's the future -- Everyone is genetically engineered for their own tasks, loves every part of life, everyone bangs constantly like rabbits, and it's a veritable utopia.

Spoilers; the main character is a conservative. Is repulsed by this liberal civilization at every turn, goes mad, and hangs himself. That's the story. Nothing of value was learned, it's a dumb book, The End.

Well maybe I did learn something. Nothing was lost in the transition from the current world vs the happier new, except pointless conservative ideals, but that didn't appear to be what the book wanted to impart.

If you want to be a slave, then the worst part about slavery seems to disappear.

 

[Asclepion]

I already read that book. It's called "A Brave New World." It's the future -- Everyone is genetically engineered for their own tasks, loves every part of life, everyone bangs constantly like rabbits, and it's a veritable utopia.

Spoilers; the main character is a conservative. Is repulsed by this liberal civilization at every turn, goes mad, and hangs himself. That's the story. Nothing of value was learned, it's a dumb book, The End.

It's more ambiguous than what you're making it out to be.

The society in Brave New World appears to be a utopia because it's people have been conditioned to not think for oneself. The characters who do are miserable. John, Helmholtz and Bernard are seeking human connections, while everyone around them are vapid hedonists. People who reject the system are sent away to become world controllers.

Are immersive VR, drugs and getting laid constantly worth giving up freedom of self-determination? You may think so, but others would disagree.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

I mean Star trek and mass effect had genetic alterting and they never made Borg and Servitors to fix the pipes. I'd guess everything will be completely automated before genetic engineered chrono gladiators are a thing.

Well, Star Trek had the opposite problem, where they made Super Humans that quickly fucked everything up. And Mass Effect ignores genetic engineering in favor of intentionally exposing populations to Eezo to create super soldiers.

EDIT: And Star Trek did address this problem, though not directly - Both androids and holograms are created sentient and then forced (Or in the androids case, they attempted to force) into servitude. Which is that same core problem here - Genetic engineering is just the tech, it's not the philosophical problem that we're discussing.

Oh right! I had forgotten that Eezo shit. That was some shit.
And I thought Trek had androids, like Data, as fully sentient lifeforms that can choose what they wanted from life. Likewise when Moriarty became sentient on the Holodeck, they worked towards freeing him. Unsuccessfully, but still.

 

[MHR]

I already read that book. It's called "A Brave New World." It's the future -- Everyone is genetically engineered for their own tasks, loves every part of life, everyone bangs constantly like rabbits, and it's a veritable utopia.

Spoilers; the main character is a conservative. Is repulsed by this liberal civilization at every turn, goes mad, and hangs himself. That's the story. Nothing of value was learned, it's a dumb book, The End.

It's more ambiguous than what you're making it out to be.

Never occurred to me. Oh well.