Geohot Hypocrisy

[ZippyDSMlee]

I'm anti-piracy, anti-modder, pro-contract, pro-deserving banhammer.

It comes down to this. Like it or not, we as the consumers, signed a contract stating that we would not tamper or mod the machine.

If you don't like the contract don't agree to it and don't buy the system.

BAM! Discussion over.

To get away from the black and white leagel stuff. You can not honestly tell me someone would mod their consol just to get linux. That might be a start, but eventually they will start to hax the games or pirate stuff.

You all don't seem to understand that if hackers and pirates were not doing this shit to begin with the PS3 would have come equiped with linux.

LOL shot themselves in the foot much. :? O

Ya the only trouble is copy right infringement is not a crime, its something that can be dragged to civil court where those with the most money tend to win.

We still have a right to reverse engineer stuff the DMCA only limits distribution of hacking tools but even then is mired in such lax vagueness only the loopholes of the civil court can assist them in winning these unconstitutional cases.

Sorry but media is not set in stone we have the right to re sell physical media(first sale doctrine). To copy,backup and transcode while the IP owners only have the right to EXCLUSIVE profit from a lack of an IPs obscurity.

All of these rights are fundamental to allow open flow of free speech and information,.


IMO the IP/CP system needs to be overhauled that IP distribution is not that same as distribution with the intent of monetary gain(even to the point of links, indexing and logs) if the powers that be were truly concerned for their profits they would go after that and then redress the issue of first sale showing that IP is freely and easily gained in very limited and controlled settings that with the digital age and most items becoming digtial that physical goods are a premium service and they need to levy against that CP's redistribution(10% of sale over 2K a year, 2% of that is used to run the program, the focus on smaller IP owners that are distributed for free slowly trickling up to the multi million dollar CP owner firms).

Remember obscurity dose far more damage to potential profits and thus the small fish get first dibs while the big fish can coast on their normal profits.

 

[shiaramoon]

For me it's the principle of the matter. As I understand it, they are suing GeoHotz because he jailbroke the PS3, saying that the PS3 is their intellectual property and he can not legally alter it. I own a PS3 and I feel I have the right to do whatever the heck I want to with it. Whether that be using it as a step-stool or a paperweight, hacking it like GeoHotz, or using it as a game console, it is my right to use my property as I see fit, as long as I do not harm others in doing so. This is why I support GeoHotz, because what Sony is trying to do infringes on my rights as a consumer. They're saying that I don't actually own MY PS3 that I paid good money for and that they can tell me how I can't and can't use it.

Now if they want to say that if I am using it in a manner that they do not approve of, then they can deny me access to a free service they provide (PSN), that is their right, but they should not be able to sue me for hacking my own device.

I do not support pirating and I understand that GeoHotz, although he does not support it, has enabled others to pirate on the PS3 much more easily. However, pirates are gonna pirate no matter what Sony or Microsoft or Nintendo, or any other company for that matter, do to stop them. Crippling consumer rights has probably only served to encourage and idolize pirates, rather than hinder them. In fact, it could even be encouraging those who view things like DRM and whatnot as puzzles or challenges for them to solve and overcome.

 

[moretimethansense]

I've got nothing against them banning modded consoles off of PSN.

I disagree, by all means ban them from multiplayer, but leave store functionality/netflix/all that other stuff intact. it's not like you can cheat at netflix.

Well you could but that would be a crime.
I think the main issue with that is a PSN membership allows you to play online by default, Xbox llve could just lock you in to a silver account if that's wht they wanted, with PSN they'd have to make a new type of account, frankly it's easier to ban.

 

[Verkula]

I dont get it either.

He hacked the system, so he can do things with it the way he wants. Fair enough, i have no problem with this part, clever guy.

...but why the hell do we have piracy and hackers online on PS3 now? Because after that he released the information to everyone. Good job idiot, and i should donate money to you? F you.

I hope after all this, some Sony lawyers give him a PS3 with Linux compatibility and shove it up hes ass.

 

[RYjet911]

I'm anti-piracy, anti-modder, pro-contract, pro-deserving banhammer.

It comes down to this. Like it or not, we as the consumers, signed a contract stating that we would not tamper or mod the machine.

If you don't like the contract don't agree to it and don't buy the system.

BAM! Discussion over.

To get away from the black and white leagel stuff. You can not honestly tell me someone would mod their consol just to get linux. That might be a start, but eventually they will start to hax the games or pirate stuff.

You all don't seem to understand that if hackers and pirates were not doing this shit to begin with the PS3 would have come equiped with linux.

LOL shot themselves in the foot much. :? O

Um... Firstly, the PS3 DID come out with Linux to begin with... They removed the feature, both on consoles released after the cutoff date, AND for people who bought the console with that feature displayed on the box.

Secondly, why the assumption that people hacking the PS3 for Linux are automatically going to start pirating games? One reason I use Linux on my laptop is so I'm not pirating Windows for it.

Thirdly, it's part of the PSN agreement, which Geohot doesn't use.

Seems like I missed my foot by quite some distance.

 

[Verkula]

People have been cheating on PS3 since a few months after launch, blaming it on geohot is laughable.

Yes, and in the same amount, and way, thats happening since the hacking...oh wait, nope.

Also, rapping about getting sued rightfully, thats laughable.

 

[Sarge034]

I'm anti-piracy, anti-modder, pro-contract, pro-deserving banhammer.

It comes down to this. Like it or not, we as the consumers, signed a contract stating that we would not tamper or mod the machine.

Ya the only trouble is copy right infringement is not a crime, its something that can be dragged to civil court where those with the most money tend to win.

When did I say anything about coppy right? That says contract up there.

Spoiler: 14. TERMINATION / CANCELLATION

14. TERMINATION / CANCELLATION
If SCEA determines in its sole discretion that you or your associated Sub Accounts have violated any term of this Agreement, the Usage Terms, or any other terms and conditions connected with Sony Online Services or have otherwise injured or damaged the Sony Online Services community, SCEA may take all actions to protect its interests, including termination or suspension of your Sony Online Services account (both the Master Account and any associated Sub Accounts), automatic removal or blockage of content, implementation of upgrades or devices intended to discontinue unauthorized use, or reliance on any other remedial efforts as necessary to remedy the violation. If the violation is in connection with content that you or your Sub Accounts have accessed, you must immediately cease use of such content and delete all copies from all of your devices. Upon termination of your account for any reason, you will not receive a refund for items (including subscriptions and pre-paid products or services), value accumulated on in-game items or any unused balance in your wallet except as required by law or as expressly provided in this Agreement......SCEA reserves the right to bring legal action and to participate in any government or private legal action or investigation relating to your conduct, which may require the disclosure of your information.

http://legaldoc.dl.playstation.net/ps3-eula/psn/u/u_tosua_en.html

Sorry but media is not set in stone we have the right to re sell physical media(first sale doctrine). To copy,backup and transcode while the IP owners only have the right to EXCLUSIVE profit from a lack of an IPs obscurity.

All of these rights are fundamental to allow open flow of free speech and information,.

O RILLY?
Ok lets start with your SSN, DOB, and bank account numbers. It is all media in some data base and you have EXCLUSIVE rights to thoes profits..... What, don't want to give it out? What happend to the "...open flow of free speech and information."?

 

[Deef]

But I love piracy...
Plus, it's more about principle. They advertised the OtherOS feature, and then took it away, leaving all those who bought the console with OtherOS in mind with something else than what they paid for.

 

[DarthFennec]

So tell me, why do you guys love Geohot even though you hate piracy? Even though it's the same thing? And you cannot seriously tell me he's only hacking the system for linux, because you all know, people will use it for free games and hacking the PSN... So inb4 any and all linux based responses...

Because it's not the same thing? It's not piracy unless he's stealing something, but he's not, he's just giving us better access to what we've already bought. Yeah it's illegal, but it shouldn't be and the DMCA can go fuck off because out of every piece of legislature currently up right now it's the one I hate the most. Too much piracy can hurt the developers, so I don't go for that, but this is hardly piracy, is it?

I like Geohot because I spent my good money on this piece of hardware, and I want to be allowed to do what I want with it. It's not illegal to replace your car engine or graphics card or vacuum cleaner belt after you bought the thing because you already fucking own it, don't you. If Sony is going to try and control the way I use the things I buy legally, after I've bought them, then they can fucking kiss my ass, because that's not cool. Apple is the same way.

If I bought something, it's mine. And I can do what I want with it. No exceptions. And if some company tries to enforce exceptions on me, they deserve to get their shit hacked, because that's just weak.

 

[Sarge034]

I'm anti-piracy, anti-modder, pro-contract, pro-deserving banhammer.

To get away from the black and white leagel stuff. You can not honestly tell me someone would mod their consol just to get linux. That might be a start, but eventually they will start to hax the games or pirate stuff.

You all don't seem to understand that if hackers and pirates were not doing this shit to begin with the PS3 would have come equiped with linux.

LOL shot themselves in the foot much. :? O

Um... Firstly, the PS3 DID come out with Linux to begin with... They removed the feature, both on consoles released after the cutoff date, AND for people who bought the console with that feature displayed on the box.

Secondly, why the assumption that people hacking the PS3 for Linux are automatically going to start pirating games? One reason I use Linux on my laptop is so I'm not pirating Windows for it.

Thirdly, it's part of the PSN agreement, which Geohot doesn't use.

Seems like I missed my foot by quite some distance.

I was unaware that some PS3s came with linux. However they still can disable it as detailed in the Terms of service.

Spoiler: 14. TERMINATION / CANCELLATION

14. TERMINATION / CANCELLATION
If SCEA determines in its sole discretion that you or your associated Sub Accounts have violated any term of this Agreement, the Usage Terms, or any other terms and conditions connected with Sony Online Services or have otherwise injured or damaged the Sony Online Services community, SCEA may take all actions to protect its interests, including termination or suspension of your Sony Online Services account (both the Master Account and any associated Sub Accounts), automatic removal or blockage of content, implementation of upgrades or devices intended to discontinue unauthorized use, or reliance on any other remedial efforts as necessary to remedy the violation. If the violation is in connection with content that you or your Sub Accounts have accessed, you must immediately cease use of such content and delete all copies from all of your devices. Upon termination of your account for any reason, you will not receive a refund for items (including subscriptions and pre-paid products or services), value accumulated on in-game items or any unused balance in your wallet except as required by law or as expressly provided in this Agreement. Any game ranking or scores, or information in connection with Sony Online Services will not be retained or accessible by you or your associated Sub Accounts. In some situations, we may suspend or terminate your Master Account, but permit you to retain your associated Sub Accounts. If you do not terminate your Sub Accounts, you will be liable for all their acts. You may not alter any of the settings on your Master Account, including parental control settings placed on your Sub Accounts prior to the termination or suspension of your Master Account. Your Sub Accounts will be permitted to use the remaining funds in your wallet provided that the Sub Account has not exceeded the limit you placed on the Sub Account. Additionally, you will not receive further correspondence from SCEA about your Sub Accounts, including purchases made by your Sub Accounts. SCEA reserves the right to bring legal action and to participate in any government or private legal action or investigation relating to your conduct, which may require the disclosure of your information. Unless as otherwise stated in this Agreement, SCEA, at its sole discretion, may indefinitely suspend, or discontinue any and all online access to content at any time, including for maintenance service or upgrades, without prior notice or liability.

I assume that people hacking linux will start pirating because if you can't just use your computer for linux why buy games? I think of it like a gateway hax. You start small and get bigger and bigger.

I had to agree to two different agreements. One was for the PSN and the other was on my inital startup when I was offline. It was the offline agreement that specified you could not mod the system. I looked online and could not find it. Might this be something new? I did buy my PS3 two weeks ago.

 

[EcHoFiiVe]

I hate GeoHot but just by proxy because as much as I might receive hate for this, I am a big CoD player (namely CoD4). After the PS3 jailbreak CoD4 became unplayable because of the ease of hacking. The game was virtually unplayable for months, and as a result I blamed and despised GeoHot. I understand I am completely biased and I am probably being hypocritical because I love my jailbroken iPod which he had another big role in. So in short, I do not like GeoHot because his jailbreak made my game unplayable, but it is probably not warranted because it is not directly his fault and I do enjoy my jailbroken iPod.

 

[Agayek]

I can't seem to grasp you guys, most of the user base here are crazy against piracy, yet most of you agree with what George Hotz is doing in the PS3 court battle. Why? Is that not the same thing? Everyone agree's to Sony's DCMA (Digital Copyright Millenium Act) when they sign up to use the PSN. This solely prevents you from doing anything to the system, because you have agreed to use the console how sony has intended.

What's that? They took away Linux? Right, that wouldn't have happened if George kept his narcissistic mouth shut when he was blabbing on about hacking the PS3, a year or so ago, he basically made sony remove linux support from their machine, and you guys still spur him on... Sure they could patch over it, but why should they, they aren't recieving revenue from linux, it's the smartest move for them. I don't think the people here should even be angry about linux being removed, because seriously, how many of you actually used linux on your PS3's?

So tell me, why do you guys love Geohot even though you hate piracy? Even though it's the same thing? And you cannot seriously tell me he's only hacking the system for linux, because you all know, people will use it for free games and hacking the PSN... So inb4 any and all linux based responses...

Just gonna point out that Sony had nothing to do with the DMCA. It's a US copyright law that's incredibly draconian (though surprisingly less so than the more recent COICA). Most of the supporter for GeoHotz are more against the bullshit copyright practices that exist in the US than supporters of piracy.

 

[RYjet911]

snip

The gateway argument's total bull and will just start flame wars, I wouldn't bring that up here.

There is also a problem that these agreements occur AFTER you purchase the product, meaning they have little legal value. You are not given a contract to sign before the exchange of money and product, making these terms of service useless in court. The best they allow is denial of service, such as blocking features for certain people.

They rather proudly touted Linux functionality on the box of the PS3s, but they don't have any of the ToS or EULA on it.

There is also an issue there that rule 14 there describes actions for a single user, not the entire PS3 owner-base. What they did was totally remove the ability to install Linux on their machines, including removing Linux even when it was already installed. That is not covered under that list.

 

[CCountZero]

Everyone agree's to Sony's DCMA (Digital Copyright Millenium Act) when they sign up to use the PSN.

We don't agree to the DMCA when we sign up for PSN. We agree to the DMCA by it being law, and we are all subject to it. EULAs and ToUs are a whole other matter.

What's that? They took away Linux? Right, that wouldn't have happened if George kept his narcissistic mouth shut when he was blabbing on about hacking the PS3, a year or so ago, he basically made sony remove linux support from their machine, and you guys still spur him on... Sure they could patch over it, but why should they, they aren't recieving revenue from linux, it's the smartest move for them. I don't think the people here should even be angry about linux being removed, because seriously, how many of you actually used linux on your PS3's?

Whatever GeoHot has done before isn't an issue in this case. It doesn't matter.

He is currently fighting for his right to reestablish features that were taken away from his hardware, without his consent, post-buy.

Despite the minor effect it has on the general consumer-base, this is a stepping stone to much bigger things, and I will bite it in the ass while I can.

A feature being removed from the PS3 in this manner, even to ensure the continued operation of the remaining 99.9% of features for the entire consumer-base, should not be made lightly, and certainly not without money-back guarantees.

I might even go so far as to say that Sony should have taken it to court pre-removal and proven that this was the only option, which I seriously doubt it was.
It was simply cost-effective.

The bottom line is that Sony passed their problem on to a portion of their consumers, and that should NEVER be something we turn a blind eye to.

 

[Nephus]

It comes down to this. Like it or not, we as the consumers, signed a contract stating that we would not tamper or mod the machine.

Yep, I remember the whole mess with the launch of the PS3. The lines took forever since everyone had to sign contracts before they were allowed to purchase it. Some places couldn't get enough notaries on hand to verify the contract was binding so it took hours to even get a few people through the lines.

Oh wait, that has never happened in the history of video gaming... well, that's kinda inconvenient for the point you were making now isn't it?

 

[Sarge034]

snip

The gateway argument's total bull and will just start flame wars, I wouldn't bring that up here.

There is also a problem that these agreements occur AFTER you purchase the product, meaning they have little legal value. You are not given a contract to sign before the exchange of money and product, making these terms of service useless in court. The best they allow is denial of service, such as blocking features for certain people.

They rather proudly touted Linux functionality on the box of the PS3s, but they don't have any of the ToS or EULA on it.

There is also an issue there that rule 14 there describes actions for a single user, not the entire PS3 owner-base. What they did was totally remove the ability to install Linux on their machines, including removing Linux even when it was already installed. That is not covered under that list.

Your opion on the Gateway argument is yours and mine is mine. You did ask what my reasoning was and I told you. If others want to flame they can get banned. I will not make up an answer to a direct question.

While I'm not aqquanted with how events played at the start of this, as I only bought my PS3 two weeks ago, I can only guess about the advertising on the box. I would say that it would cost more to handle any legal complaints then it would to recall, repackage, and reship the affected products. It could have been handled if Sony required retail stores to hand you a notice when you went to buy one explaining the changes.

14. TERMINATION / CANCELLATION

SCEA, at its sole discretion, may indefinitely suspend, or discontinue any and all online access to content at any time, including for maintenance service or upgrades, without prior notice or liability

From reading that it does not look like they have to target only the hackers. It would make sence that if they found a hole in the system they would plug it on every consol, not just the known hacked ones.

 

[gundamrx101]

I've already stated in other threads. It's not about the hardware, it's about the software. The user agreement states that any tampering or distribution of the software not authorized by Sony is theft. It's because he distributed the rootkey. Sony could care less if you buy a PS3 and strap chocolate covered hookers with rocket boots to it. They know that the object is yours, the software in which you operate it isn't. They supply the software, which we didn't purchase. Unlike an operating system for a computer which we did puchase and are allowed to mod. The fact he took something that wasn't his, nor any of ours unless we work for Sony, and made it public.

That said, I'm not on Sony's side either. They're overstepping, trying too hard to make a point of illiegal software distribution.

Quite frankly, if he had kept quiet about him hacking the PS3 and didn't PUBLICALLY announce it and then PUBLICALLY annouce he was posting the rootkey then none of this would be happening and happy modders would still be happy.

 

[NotSoNimble]

I love how AFTER he gets in trouble he starts saying downloading games illegally is wrong.

 

[RYjet911]

snip

The gateway argument's total bull and will just start flame wars, I wouldn't bring that up here.

There is also a problem that these agreements occur AFTER you purchase the product, meaning they have little legal value. You are not given a contract to sign before the exchange of money and product, making these terms of service useless in court. The best they allow is denial of service, such as blocking features for certain people.

They rather proudly touted Linux functionality on the box of the PS3s, but they don't have any of the ToS or EULA on it.

There is also an issue there that rule 14 there describes actions for a single user, not the entire PS3 owner-base. What they did was totally remove the ability to install Linux on their machines, including removing Linux even when it was already installed. That is not covered under that list.

Your opion on the Gateway argument is yours and mine is mine. You did ask what my reasoning was and I told you. If others want to flame they can get banned. I will not make up an answer to a direct question.

While I'm not aqquanted with how events played at the start of this, as I only bought my PS3 two weeks ago, I can only guess about the advertising on the box. I would say that it would cost more to handle any legal complaints then it would to recall, repackage, and reship the affected products. It could have been handled if Sony required retail stores to hand you a notice when you went to buy one explaining the changes.

14. TERMINATION / CANCELLATION

SCEA, at its sole discretion, may indefinitely suspend, or discontinue any and all online access to content at any time, including for maintenance service or upgrades, without prior notice or liability

From reading that it does not look like they have to target only the hackers. It would make sence that if they found a hole in the system they would plug it on every consol, not just the known hacked ones.

Note it only describes "Online access to content".

People using Linux aren't accessing it online once it's installed, they're accessing from the hard drive.

The removal of Linux was, at least partially, unjustified. I think however they did get around it by basically preventing people from updating the console if they wanted to keep Linux... Regardless of what their ToS claims however, there is nothing outright ILLEGAL in modding a PS3. They can just deny content. This is why I don't understand Sony's position. The monstrosity of lockdown that forms the basis for Apple got taken down thanks to jailbreak, and Sony will be much the same. If they aren't, prepare for an age of total lockdown and denial of advertised services purely at the company's discretion.