German Consumer Group Hopes To See Valve In Court This Year

[Karloff]

German Consumer Group Hopes To See Valve In Court This Year

Verbraucherzentrale Bundesverband e.V. doesn't think Valve will change its ToS.

A short while back German consumer rights advocacy group Verbraucherzentrale Bundesverband e.V. (VZBV) has actually seen the VZBV complaint [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/119739-Steam-TOS-Leads-to-Trouble-in-Germany].

The dispute is over the sale of used digital games [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/118245-EU-Court-Legalizes-Selling-Used-Digital-Games]. The Court of Justice of the European Union has ruled that such sales are legal regardless of the vendor's EULA, a development which spurred Valve into making a change to its Terms of Service, removing any possibility of a class action suit against it in the event of a customer dispute. That ToS change got VZBV involved when Valve stated that anyone who didn't want to sign up to the updated ToS would have their accounts deactivated, along with all games and content. From that time to this there's been silence, but VZBV's latest seems to indicate that silence is no longer an option for Valve.

While it's very unlikely we'll ever have to speculate, Mr Bridger-style, on what they have for dinner in German prisons [http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Italian_Job_%281969_film%29], it will be interesting to see whether or not this dispute actually goes to court. Second hand digital sales will become a big deal in the not so distant future; cases like these will decide what that future looks like.

Source: Games On [http://games.on.net/2013/07/german-consumer-rights-group-believes-resale-case-against-valve-will-happen-this-year/]




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[Gearhead mk2]

Hopefully people will actually read this article and not defend Valve just because they're Valve. It's about time that digital rights actually gave people some friggin rights. And I'm fairly certain that those EULAs that Steam and Origin and other such systems use are illegal in Europe anyway.

 

[Albino Boo]

The Court of Justice of the European Union has ruled that such sales are legal regardless of the vendor's EULA, a development which spurred Valve into making a change to its Terms of Service, removing any possibility of a class action suit against it in the event of a customer dispute. That ToS change got VZBV involved when Valve stated that anyone who didn't want to sign up to the updated ToS would have their accounts deactivated, along with all games and content. From that time to this there's been silence, but VZBV's latest seems to indicate that silence is no longer an option for Valve.

Small but significant point class actions in are not legal in Germany except for stocks and shares. They have no chance of winning because the you can't make a class action case in Germany in the first place. The only reason why the ToS was changed was because the US supreme court said you could use a binding arbitration instead. This only applies to the US pretty much because its only the US that has class actions anyway.

 

[PoolCleaningRobot]

Hopefully people will actually read this article and not defend Valve just because they're Valve. It's about time that digital rights actually gave people some friggin rights. And I'm fairly certain that those EULAs that Steam and Origin and other such systems use are illegal in Europe anyway.

Exactly. This bullshit with limited rights on digital content needs to go and Valve doesn't deserve any defense. Deactivating people's accounts and their games if they don't sign an agreement that didn't exist when they bought their games is ridiculous and the reason I don't get all my games digitally. Like it or not, we're not in control of the games we buy off Steam, Valve is. I don't know how much good this lawsuit will do because its not like Valve owns the licenses to the games it distributes but hopefully it'll push things in the right direction

 

[Karadalis]

The Court of Justice of the European Union has ruled that such sales are legal regardless of the vendor's EULA, a development which spurred Valve into making a change to its Terms of Service, removing any possibility of a class action suit against it in the event of a customer dispute. That ToS change got VZBV involved when Valve stated that anyone who didn't want to sign up to the updated ToS would have their accounts deactivated, along with all games and content. From that time to this there's been silence, but VZBV's latest seems to indicate that silence is no longer an option for Valve.

Small but significant point class actions in are not legal in Germany except for stocks and shares. They have no chance of winning because the you can't make a class action case in Germany in the first place. The only reason why the ToS was changed was because the US supreme court said you could use a binding arbitration instead. This only applies to the US pretty much because its only the US that has class actions anyway.

Erm.. not really.

You are allowed to field a Sammelklage (gather sueing roughly translated) wich is similiar to a class action lawsuit with the difference that you cant sue for "the unknown person" meaning everyone who sues must be named.

You cant go to court and say "well i sue for all their customers" you must have names and the people attached to the names have to participate. Infact this most often happens against industry companies that damage the enviroment or otherwise negativly influence the live of alot of people, mining operations for example are notorious targets for Sammelklagen.

What Valve did was force you to accept that you cant team up with other customers to sue them.. that clause and the part where they take all your purchased goods hostage (wich are infact yours according to european law) is illegal in germany. If i remember correctly you cannot sign away your rights in germany either.

Also theres a good chance the Verbraucherzentrale does know their handywork and knows the german laws on the topic better then Valve.

 

[zellosoli]

so far so good, 5 posts in and no one has knee jerked a "Defend Valve" response, maybe people are learning to read before posting?

 

[Alcom1]

What change in ToS? I don't remember noticing one.

 

[Griffolion]

What change in ToS? I don't remember noticing one.

That's probably the whole point.

OT: Yeah, one of Valve's more stupid things about them. It really needs to change.

 

[Albino Boo]

The Court of Justice of the European Union has ruled that such sales are legal regardless of the vendor's EULA, a development which spurred Valve into making a change to its Terms of Service, removing any possibility of a class action suit against it in the event of a customer dispute. That ToS change got VZBV involved when Valve stated that anyone who didn't want to sign up to the updated ToS would have their accounts deactivated, along with all games and content. From that time to this there's been silence, but VZBV's latest seems to indicate that silence is no longer an option for Valve.

Small but significant point class actions in are not legal in Germany except for stocks and shares. They have no chance of winning because the you can't make a class action case in Germany in the first place. The only reason why the ToS was changed was because the US supreme court said you could use a binding arbitration instead. This only applies to the US pretty much because its only the US that has class actions anyway.

Erm.. not really.

You are allowed to field a Sammelklage (gather sueing roughly translated) wich is similiar to a class action lawsuit with the difference that you cant sue for "the unknown person" meaning everyone who sues must be named.

You cant go to court and say "well i sue for all their customers" you must have names and the people attached to the names have to participate. Infact this most often happens against industry companies that damage the enviroment or otherwise negativly influence the live of alot of people, mining operations for example are notorious targets for Sammelklagen.

What Valve did was force you to accept that you cant team up with other customers to sue them.. that clause and the part where they take all your purchased goods hostage (wich are infact yours according to european law) is illegal in germany. If i remember correctly you cannot sign away your rights in germany either.

Also theres a good chance the Verbraucherzentrale does know their handywork and knows the german laws on the topic better then Valve.

Form the steam TOS

11. APPLICABLE LAW/JURISDICTION

For Subscribers other than EU Subscribers:

You agree that this Agreement shall be deemed to have been made and executed in the State of Washington, U.S.A., and any dispute arising hereunder shall be resolved in accordance with the law of Washington. Subject to Section 12 (Dispute Resolution/Binding Arbitration/Class Action Waiver) below, you agree that any claim asserted in any legal proceeding by you against Valve shall be commenced and maintained exclusively in any state or federal court located in King County, Washington, having subject matter jurisdiction with respect to the dispute between the parties and you hereby consent to the exclusive jurisdiction of such courts. In any dispute arising under this Agreement, the prevailing party will be entitled to attorneys? fees and expenses.

For EU Subscribers:

You agree that this Agreement shall be deemed to have been made and executed in the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg and that it is subject to the laws of Luxembourg, excluding the law of conflicts and the Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods (CISG). However, where the laws of Luxembourg provide a lower degree of consumer protection than the laws of your country of residence, the consumer protection laws of your country shall prevail. In any dispute arising under this Agreement, the prevailing party will be entitled to attorneys? fees and expenses.

in particular the line, which does not appear in the EU version

Subject to Section 12 (Dispute Resolution/Binding Arbitration/Class Action Waiver) below, you agree that any claim asserted in any legal proceeding by you against Valve shall be commenced and maintained exclusively in any state or federal court located in King County, Washington, having subject matter jurisdiction with respect to the dispute between the parties and you hereby consent to the exclusive jurisdiction of such courts.

In other words the the binding arbitration DOES NOT apply in the EU. You can not sue a company for using a different term outside of the EU. As I said the in my original post the change in the ToS was because of ruling from the US supreme court and nothing, zero and not one iota to do with the EU court decision. Furthermore most jurisdictions allow mass actions whereby groups of named people join together to file a suit. A class action by definition is one where the all the plaintiffs are not named.

 

[Cecilo]

The only issue I take with this is how is used games resales going to be handled.

If we are selling it back to Valve. Our used license, then is it going to be priced when we got the sale (because let us be frank, no one really buys most their games any time other than the sales), or the normal price. The former is realistic, and would require quite a bit of effort on steam's part.

The Latter is not as realistic, because it would lead to people buying games during steam sales, and potentially costing valve more money getting more money back then they paid for it.

If it allows for people to trade games through steam, then Germany may see no steam sales at all in Germany, because I could see people taking advantage of the steam sales, say a group of friends buys X game, and they just trade it amongst themselves.

I get what the people want, they want digital rights, the right to trade their games, but I always traded my games amongst my friends because I could not afford the game for several years. Valve has made it so I can afford MOST of their games TWICE a year. If the Germans do win this, then it will take a ton of work to get it fair and balanced for Valve and the consumer. It is clear to me however that steam sales could very well be a victim of getting more rights. The question you have to ask yourself is, "Is it worth paying 60 dollars for a game I can trade with my friends/resell to other people", as opposed to "I can get a 60 dollar game for 15-30 dollars that I cannot trade/resell."

 

[Weaver]

I hope the Germans come out on top of this one! It would be a windfall for the rest of the world against US corporate bullying.

 

[Sofus]

All digital products are considered services. They are not products such as a phone or a retail game. A service cannot be refunded, returned or exchanged for something else once it has been provided. EU even forced Denmark to change the rules to the above mentionend, and unless EU changes it once more, then Valve won't be going to any court.

 

[Symbio Joe]

VZBV is not exactly a heavy weight, more like a mild annoyance to the german industry. As long as there is no political intrest Valve should be save.

 

[Falterfire]

Used Digital still makes no sense. Lending does, but used digital in the same sense that Gamestop sells used physical? "Oh, this copy is cheaper *cough* and we get 100% instead of 30% *cough* because the bits are slightly scuffed due to a previous owner. The H in the CD-Key is also slightly scratched and the cover of the digital manual is missing."

 

[Smooth Operator]

Good, distribution sites have been snuffing out user right left and right completely unopposed, on the brink of going fully digital this shit needs to be put in check.

 

[JarinArenos]

I don't see why Valve can't just add games to their internal digital marketplace and charge users the same 30% fee that they charge developers.

Okay, that's not true, I can see lots of minor problems with this, but none that I think are insurmountable.

 

[Richard Allen]

Used Digital still makes no sense. Lending does, but used digital in the same sense that Gamestop sells used physical? "Oh, this copy is cheaper *cough* and we get 100% instead of 30% *cough* because the bits are slightly scuffed due to a previous owner. The H in the CD-Key is also slightly scratched and the cover of the digital manual is missing."

Why don't you go sell Diablo 2 for full price, then come back and explain how digital content's value doesn't depreciate. It does make sense, and yet fools will still argue it as if developers are somehow entitled to the special market where they get to sell everything twice.

 

[lacktheknack]

Used Digital still makes no sense. Lending does, but used digital in the same sense that Gamestop sells used physical? "Oh, this copy is cheaper *cough* and we get 100% instead of 30% *cough* because the bits are slightly scuffed due to a previous owner. The H in the CD-Key is also slightly scratched and the cover of the digital manual is missing."

This.

Everyone keeps saying that reselling digital games is a right, but allowing it could very easily disembowel Valve. That's why you buy licenses, not products.

 

[Cecilo]

Used Digital still makes no sense. Lending does, but used digital in the same sense that Gamestop sells used physical? "Oh, this copy is cheaper *cough* and we get 100% instead of 30% *cough* because the bits are slightly scuffed due to a previous owner. The H in the CD-Key is also slightly scratched and the cover of the digital manual is missing."

Why don't you go sell Diablo 2 for full price, then come back and explain how digital content's value doesn't depreciate. It does make sense, and yet fools will still argue it as if developers are somehow entitled to the special market where they get to sell everything twice.

Except I cannot go resell my Diablo 2 copy, especially not at full price. No one would buy it at full price. Blizzard still sells their Diablo 2 online, for 10 dollars. PC Gamers have not been able to resell their games to retailers for a long time, to other people sure.

But honestly, the major point towards reselling is that I can get a cheaper than full price copy from someone else. But for steam, you don't need that thanks to their Steam Sales. There is no good arguement towards selling things to other people on steam, other than not having to wait until Winter/summer.

In which case. Suddenly you will see a influx of people buying games in the Summer/Winter. Then selling their extra copies at a higher price but still discounted from current price, to people between Summer and Winter. And yea.. Steam isn't going to do that. So as I said Earlier, if Germany decides people can resell their games from steam to other people, Germany will probably not be seeing many or any sales from Steam at all. Or Steam just moving away from Germany all together.