German Consumer Group Hopes To See Valve In Court This Year

[Oskuro]

I don't have an opinion on used games sales, but I do have a strong opinion on the availability of my purchases being subject to the whims of a third party.

Any and all action that points at digital stores using denial of access to purchases to strong-arm users is positive. In my opinion, the digital marketplace won't really become universal until consumers have the certainty that they own what they buy.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

Would be nice if Germany won this one. No matter if you support Steam sales or not, I think everyone can agree using EULAs and ToSs to bypass local laws are a bad thing.

 

[Richard Allen]

Used Digital still makes no sense. Lending does, but used digital in the same sense that Gamestop sells used physical? "Oh, this copy is cheaper *cough* and we get 100% instead of 30% *cough* because the bits are slightly scuffed due to a previous owner. The H in the CD-Key is also slightly scratched and the cover of the digital manual is missing."

Why don't you go sell Diablo 2 for full price, then come back and explain how digital content's value doesn't depreciate. It does make sense, and yet fools will still argue it as if developers are somehow entitled to the special market where they get to sell everything twice.

Except I cannot go resell my Diablo 2 copy, especially not at full price. No one would buy it at full price. Blizzard still sells their Diablo 2 online, for 10 dollars. PC Gamers have not been able to resell their games to retailers for a long time, to other people sure.

But honestly, the major point towards reselling is that I can get a cheaper than full price copy from someone else. But for steam, you don't need that thanks to their Steam Sales. There is no good arguement towards selling things to other people on steam, other than not having to wait until Winter/summer.

In which case. Suddenly you will see a influx of people buying games in the Summer/Winter. Then selling their extra copies at a higher price but still discounted from current price, to people between Summer and Winter. And yea.. Steam isn't going to do that. So as I said Earlier, if Germany decides people can resell their games from steam to other people, Germany will probably not be seeing many or any sales from Steam at all. Or Steam just moving away from Germany all together.

So your entire point for not reselling digital is that steam won't make enough money. Got it now. Maybe you should put "doesn't' make sense for [insert corporate entity here]", because digital sales certainly make sense from a customer point of view. The only reason they are allowed to do this is because of bull crap eula/ licensing laws, which lawsuits like this aim to get rid of.

I'm sorry I don't buy the we don't make enough money argument when screwing me over.

 

[Subatomic]

Remember that this case isn't really about used digital games, it is about the fact customers lose access to their already purchased games if they don't accept updated TOS/EULAs, which is very likely illegal in Germany (and the rest of the EU).

 

[Robetid]

Well you know what they say about messing with the bull. Sure steam has gamers by the balls as far as who owns what, but they haven't really done much to throw it in gamers' faces. They are also working torwards giving gamers more freedom with their downloads as far as sharing with friends. They just released these stupid little cards you get for playing games which you can collect for rewards or sell to the public for a few cents here or there. I'm not exactly trying to defend valve, but if you start trying to wrestle more from them they can just as easily shut off their service, or at the very least stop selling me $40 games for $5 twice a year. So far they have been leaning torwards more leniency, not stricter guidelines, at the same time it seems like you have to go out of your way to TRY and get your service locked before it happens.

 

[Sectan]

I like valve and their sales, but I'm kind of on the side of the German consumer group...Right now they're the benevolent dictator of digital distribution, but as soon as Gabe or someone jumps ship or retires it might turn into a shitstorm.

 

[hawkeye52]

Used Digital still makes no sense. Lending does, but used digital in the same sense that Gamestop sells used physical? "Oh, this copy is cheaper *cough* and we get 100% instead of 30% *cough* because the bits are slightly scuffed due to a previous owner. The H in the CD-Key is also slightly scratched and the cover of the digital manual is missing."

Why don't you go sell Diablo 2 for full price, then come back and explain how digital content's value doesn't depreciate. It does make sense, and yet fools will still argue it as if developers are somehow entitled to the special market where they get to sell everything twice.

Except I cannot go resell my Diablo 2 copy, especially not at full price. No one would buy it at full price. Blizzard still sells their Diablo 2 online, for 10 dollars. PC Gamers have not been able to resell their games to retailers for a long time, to other people sure.

But honestly, the major point towards reselling is that I can get a cheaper than full price copy from someone else. But for steam, you don't need that thanks to their Steam Sales. There is no good arguement towards selling things to other people on steam, other than not having to wait until Winter/summer.

In which case. Suddenly you will see a influx of people buying games in the Summer/Winter. Then selling their extra copies at a higher price but still discounted from current price, to people between Summer and Winter. And yea.. Steam isn't going to do that. So as I said Earlier, if Germany decides people can resell their games from steam to other people, Germany will probably not be seeing many or any sales from Steam at all. Or Steam just moving away from Germany all together.

It won't be just Germany. It will be the whole of Europe most likely due to how European Law operates. Also I seriously doubt that Valve will cut out the entirety of Europe from their business model to give back a right that we have had since the dawn of commerce

 

[Nikolaz72]

Used Digital still makes no sense. Lending does, but used digital in the same sense that Gamestop sells used physical? "Oh, this copy is cheaper *cough* and we get 100% instead of 30% *cough* because the bits are slightly scuffed due to a previous owner. The H in the CD-Key is also slightly scratched and the cover of the digital manual is missing."

Why don't you go sell Diablo 2 for full price, then come back and explain how digital content's value doesn't depreciate. It does make sense, and yet fools will still argue it as if developers are somehow entitled to the special market where they get to sell everything twice.

Except I cannot go resell my Diablo 2 copy, especially not at full price. No one would buy it at full price. Blizzard still sells their Diablo 2 online, for 10 dollars. PC Gamers have not been able to resell their games to retailers for a long time, to other people sure.

But honestly, the major point towards reselling is that I can get a cheaper than full price copy from someone else. But for steam, you don't need that thanks to their Steam Sales. There is no good arguement towards selling things to other people on steam, other than not having to wait until Winter/summer.

In which case. Suddenly you will see a influx of people buying games in the Summer/Winter. Then selling their extra copies at a higher price but still discounted from current price, to people between Summer and Winter. And yea.. Steam isn't going to do that. So as I said Earlier, if Germany decides people can resell their games from steam to other people, Germany will probably not be seeing many or any sales from Steam at all. Or Steam just moving away from Germany all together.

It won't be just Germany. It will be the whole of Europe most likely due to how European Law operates. Also I seriously doubt that Valve will cut out the entirety of Europe from their business model to give back a right that we have had since the dawn of commerce

(European in favor of this Consumer Group here) They will not cut out Europe, but they could be forced to remove the massive sales for Europeans. Or force the Europeans to trade for a certain percentage below the amount they bought it for on sale. Otherwise it would kill Valves profits in Europe.

This could suck for Valve's business in germany

This would affect all of Europe mate, no way it would not.

 

[Karadalis]

The only issue I take with this is how is used games resales going to be handled.

If we are selling it back to Valve. Our used license, then is it going to be priced when we got the sale (because let us be frank, no one really buys most their games any time other than the sales), or the normal price. The former is realistic, and would require quite a bit of effort on steam's part.

The Latter is not as realistic, because it would lead to people buying games during steam sales, and potentially costing valve more money getting more money back then they paid for it.

If it allows for people to trade games through steam, then Germany may see no steam sales at all in Germany, because I could see people taking advantage of the steam sales, say a group of friends buys X game, and they just trade it amongst themselves.

I get what the people want, they want digital rights, the right to trade their games, but I always traded my games amongst my friends because I could not afford the game for several years. Valve has made it so I can afford MOST of their games TWICE a year. If the Germans do win this, then it will take a ton of work to get it fair and balanced for Valve and the consumer. It is clear to me however that steam sales could very well be a victim of getting more rights. The question you have to ask yourself is, "Is it worth paying 60 dollars for a game I can trade with my friends/resell to other people", as opposed to "I can get a 60 dollar game for 15-30 dollars that I cannot trade/resell."

Auction house style?

I mean that would be the most obvious solution that doesnt have steam dictate a price and still have steam benefit from it by taking some auction fees?

 

[SajuukKhar]

The reselling of digital products simply makes no sense.

Reselling, trading, and all other forms of swapping, only work because, when those things were created, all products they dealt with were physical, and thus could decay, and wear down, making it to where people HAD to eventually go out and buy new versions of the product, and thus prevent infinite trading, which would destroy any and all product makers because they wouldn't be able to sell enough of their product in order to recoup initial expenses, and make a profit to spend on making more products.

Digital products however don't wear down, unless you slap some artificial decay mechanism on them, like digital books did, which people screamed bloody murder about being unfair, despite it being TOTALLY fair. So trading digital products simply isn't feasible because it would mean only one person had to buy a product ever, and then they could just trade forever with other people, and no company can survive like that.

Not being able to trade digital products is a result of them NOT being physical products, and not having the same flaws as physical products, which means they shouldn't be treated the same. You get a product that lasts forever, but at the same time can't be resold, that's the trade off, that's the balancing factor that makes digital products on the same level of fairness as physical products.

 

[Catface Meowmers]

This is clearly a case of the Old Ways vs. the New Ways.

In terms of how we've understood the concept since its inception, there's no such thing as a used digital game. The whole point of a "used product" is that it has depreciated in value, and therefore it's not the "same" product that was purchased initially.

A licensed digital copy of a game is not the same kind of "product" as anything else that gets sold "used", so the old rules do not apply. Your purchase of the game license does not affect its value or depreciate it. I don't see why this is such a big deal.

 

[hawkeye52]

Used Digital still makes no sense. Lending does, but used digital in the same sense that Gamestop sells used physical? "Oh, this copy is cheaper *cough* and we get 100% instead of 30% *cough* because the bits are slightly scuffed due to a previous owner. The H in the CD-Key is also slightly scratched and the cover of the digital manual is missing."

Why don't you go sell Diablo 2 for full price, then come back and explain how digital content's value doesn't depreciate. It does make sense, and yet fools will still argue it as if developers are somehow entitled to the special market where they get to sell everything twice.

Except I cannot go resell my Diablo 2 copy, especially not at full price. No one would buy it at full price. Blizzard still sells their Diablo 2 online, for 10 dollars. PC Gamers have not been able to resell their games to retailers for a long time, to other people sure.

But honestly, the major point towards reselling is that I can get a cheaper than full price copy from someone else. But for steam, you don't need that thanks to their Steam Sales. There is no good arguement towards selling things to other people on steam, other than not having to wait until Winter/summer.

In which case. Suddenly you will see a influx of people buying games in the Summer/Winter. Then selling their extra copies at a higher price but still discounted from current price, to people between Summer and Winter. And yea.. Steam isn't going to do that. So as I said Earlier, if Germany decides people can resell their games from steam to other people, Germany will probably not be seeing many or any sales from Steam at all. Or Steam just moving away from Germany all together.

It won't be just Germany. It will be the whole of Europe most likely due to how European Law operates. Also I seriously doubt that Valve will cut out the entirety of Europe from their business model to give back a right that we have had since the dawn of commerce

(European in favor of this Consumer Group here) They will not cut out Europe, but they could be forced to remove the massive sales for Europeans. Or force the Europeans to trade for a certain percentage below the amount they bought it for on sale. Otherwise it would kill Valves profits in Europe.

This could suck for Valve's business in germany

This would affect all of Europe mate, no way it would not.

EDIT:Fuck me quoted the wrong person originally

Tbh. I wouldn't be that bothered by the disappearence of steam sales. I much prefer the idea of trading games. I also understand the ramifications of that they might raise prices but the ability to trade games and refund games is much more valuable then any steam sale imo.

 

[Richard Allen]

The reselling of digital products simply makes no sense.

Reselling, trading, and all other forms of swapping, only work because, when those things were created, all products they dealt with were physical, and thus could decay, and wear down, making it to where people HAD to eventually go out and buy new versions of the product, and thus prevent infinite trading, which would destroy any and all product makers because they wouldn't be able to sell enough of their product in order to recoup initial expenses, and make a profit to spend on making more products.

Digital products however dont wear down, unless you slap some artificial decay mechanism on them, like digital books did, which people screamed bloody murder about being unfair, despite it being TOTALLY fair. So trading digital products simply isn't feasible because it would mean only one person had to buy a product ever, and then they could just trade forever with other people, and no company can survive like that.

Not being able to trade digital products is a result of them NOT being physical products, and not having the same flaws as physical products, which means they shouldn't be treated the same.

You get a product that lasts forever, but at the same time cant be resold, that's the trade off, that's the balancing factor that makes digital products on the same level of fairness as physical products.

people keep on saying that as if the value doesn't decay as with every other product known to man kind. Would you spend $50 dollars on a 10 year old game. No, doesn't matter if it is digital or not.

Still love it when people use "the corporations are not making enuf" argument. Mind baffling.

 

[SoulChaserJ]

Ok I love Valve and all but they need to update the DRM and their client to support used games. This group also needs to target Sony, MS, and EA, not just Valve. It's digital goods as a whole that need to transform, not just one company.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

Hopefully people will actually read this article and not defend Valve just because they're Valve. It's about time that digital rights actually gave people some friggin rights. And I'm fairly certain that those EULAs that Steam and Origin and other such systems use are illegal in Europe anyway.

People shouldn't really see it as an attack on Valve in the first place. The issue of digital rights goes beyond Valve and Steam. Valve is the easy target because Steam is so widely used and accepted.

Steam is not perfect because no EULA concerning digital distribution clients (and digital rights) is.

Ok I love Valve and all but they need to update the DRM and their client to support used games. This group also needs to target Sony, MS, and EA, not just Valve. It's digital goods as a whole that need to transform, not just one company.

Looks like this guy beat me to it.

 

[major_chaos]

Valve is gonna win this easy. They can afford the expensive lawyers, and in the end that's what matters. Although it is nice to see not everyone here is rushing to defend Valve.

 

[Cecilo]

Used Digital still makes no sense. Lending does, but used digital in the same sense that Gamestop sells used physical? "Oh, this copy is cheaper *cough* and we get 100% instead of 30% *cough* because the bits are slightly scuffed due to a previous owner. The H in the CD-Key is also slightly scratched and the cover of the digital manual is missing."

Why don't you go sell Diablo 2 for full price, then come back and explain how digital content's value doesn't depreciate. It does make sense, and yet fools will still argue it as if developers are somehow entitled to the special market where they get to sell everything twice.

Except I cannot go resell my Diablo 2 copy, especially not at full price. No one would buy it at full price. Blizzard still sells their Diablo 2 online, for 10 dollars. PC Gamers have not been able to resell their games to retailers for a long time, to other people sure.

But honestly, the major point towards reselling is that I can get a cheaper than full price copy from someone else. But for steam, you don't need that thanks to their Steam Sales. There is no good arguement towards selling things to other people on steam, other than not having to wait until Winter/summer.

In which case. Suddenly you will see a influx of people buying games in the Summer/Winter. Then selling their extra copies at a higher price but still discounted from current price, to people between Summer and Winter. And yea.. Steam isn't going to do that. So as I said Earlier, if Germany decides people can resell their games from steam to other people, Germany will probably not be seeing many or any sales from Steam at all. Or Steam just moving away from Germany all together.

So your entire point for not reselling digital is that steam won't make enough money. Got it now. Maybe you should put "doesn't' make sense for [insert corporate entity here]", because digital sales certainly make sense from a customer point of view. The only reason they are allowed to do this is because of bull crap eula/ licensing laws, which lawsuits like this aim to get rid of.

I'm sorry I don't buy the we don't make enough money argument when screwing me over.

No the point isn't that they wouldn't be making as much money. The entire point of steam sales is to offer people a better service. They offset the idea that you can't trade your games like you can for consoles with massive sales. If we get the right to trade in games or trade games to friends for free then they have no incentive to give people sales.

I personally would rather have the sales, that is just how I feel about it. Hell. You wanna pay more money for games, go for it. Valve isn't going to complain about you paying 60 dollars for a game you would wait till Winter/Summer to pay 10 dollars for. Especially if you want to play with friends on a multiplayer game. 120 dollars for 2 games as opposed to 20? Pft yea. Valve is gonna be so heartbroken that they cant give people sales.

Ofcourse, then people will complain about how Trading got rid of their sales, and maybe it will revert back and then back and forth. Fickle consumers.