Girls in Gaming

[jamesworkshop]

Not sure I really understand women in gaming are universally extremly capable at whatever they happen to be doing often displaying far more physical strenght than what most humans of any strenght are capable of.
My problem with female depictions of sexuality is that it is only even done for the titilation of men I have yet to see any female character in gaming have a sexuality from a females point of view as in what they are attracted to and what their desires are and they ways they manifest, they lack any sexual potency of their own.

 

[hunteriv4]

Video games are an entertainment medium. Go watch a James Bond movie and see how much "exploitation" is going on. The thing with video games is that frankly most are modeled after action movies...plenty of explosions, fighting, fast paced action and skimpy on little details like story line or character development. Creating "iconic" characters that need little background for a player to understand saves on bothering with the effort of actually creating that back story or personality. Unless you're playing an RPG (and for the most part I'm referring to Bioware RPGs) character development is mostly a waste of developer time and money. Result: Sexy babes, tough dudes, fast cars, big explosions. AKA action movies.

By the way, while it is true that women have a higher pain tolerance (on average) than men this does not correlate to military requirements very well. Pain tolerance can be trained. Physical body restrictions are a bit harder to overcome. Let me explain that position.

Men are naturally stronger than women (again, on average, in the same way that women's pain tolerance is on average greater than men's). This isn't because of some mental toughness thing, it's directly related to hormonal changes during puberty. Men burn off baby fat, develop muscle, and have a frame naturally more efficient at carrying weight. Men are less likely to develop knee injuries than women during military training and operation (and in general), partly because of bone structure. Incidentally this applies to athletics as well...women are more prone to joint injury than men.

This is a major liability in your typical infantry job. A US Marine typically carries anywhere from 80-120 lbs. in a combat load, sometimes up to around 150 lbs. This is a *lot* of weight. Considering the average body weight of a woman in the military is around 120-130 lbs. (men 160-180) they are carrying a considerable portion of their body weight, on a back less optimized for it, on weaker joints with wider hips. Sure, women can work out and build up quite a bit of muscle but there's only so much support you can provide for joints.

I'm not saying women cannot participate in the military, or that all men are better at the job than all women. Quite the contrary. But the idea that women would make *better* soldiers than men (and I'm referring specifically to infantry MOSes) is unfortunately false. While being able to shoot a gun and jump over obstacles while wearing a shirt and pants are well and good the biggest factor that hinders female military members in infantry positions is carrying over their own body weight in gear.

Anyway, perhaps that's off topic. Video games are typically idealized or extra-gritty versions of what the makers perceive as reality. Go to the mall and tell me who typically wears clothing that covers more of their body...men or women. Exaggerate that and you get video game characters...women with skimpy clothes and curvy bodies and men with arms thicker than their heads and their shoulders twice the width of their waist. Humans are sexual beings. They tried suppressing that in the Victorian age and look how well that worked out. If someone is truly offended by exaggerated human forms (or aliens in the case of Bayonetta, heh) there are plenty of great RTS games out there where you never have to see any more flesh than a face telling you your next objective and a bunch of robots and armored people on the ground. Just sayin'.

P.S. Another major cause of female knee problems is high heels. When you combine them with lots of physical activity it's pretty much asking for a displaced patella. And before someone complains about how men created high heels to mess with women I'd like to point out they were invented for *men* to ride horses and only became popular with women because wearing them was a sign of class. They were never designed to be walked around in for long periods of time and men eventually replaced the basic idea with cowboy boots that serve the same purpose (a notch for the stirrup). Go fashion.

 

[Mordwyl]

You people are STILL stereotyping with the other way round. Just like not all women like the sexualisation of females, not all women like being portrayed in a boring attire either. Quite of a lot of my friends actually like the revealing outfits games portray them in, though them being artists actually helps matters.

 

[omega 616]

Typically, I am annoyed when I run across that stuff in games, however, if a woman makes threads like this she's a vicious feminazi and is discounted. So, to say that I don't make the thread myself obviously means that I'm not bothered by the topic at hand is kind of an ignorant assumption. I'm just not going to bother giving my opinion if I think it's not going to be valued. Having someone else open the floor so I can say 'oh hey, I agree' is generally more acceptable for some reason. You work it out.

Well guys should be discounted to to them not having the problem, really. They can be bored of looking at size 0 girls with boobs atleast cup sized GG but it's not really there problem.

Although, I am one of the bored ones.

Girls should be making the stand if they want a change, while I agree that you will get the odd "oh, here we go again. Another female pissed at the way women are portrayed" it would still hold alot more weight than a guy claiming there is a problem for women.

Imagine if I went on a campaign saying "all girls with boobs above a D cup have to have thicker straps on them, girls with boobs bigger than F should have even thicker ones so the bra doesn't cut into there shoulders to increase comfort" while that is true, it would be better if women did it.

So why didn't you make the thread if it bothers you? It obviously wasn't that much of a deal to you.

I am all for girls being more normal, take Jack in ME2, shes bald covered in tattoo's and comparatively flat chested, which I think is alot better. Granted she is wearing something Jodie marsh would wear but I have her in her alternate costume which covers her up a little.

I am just saying if girls were really that bothered, they would be alot more vocal about it. Since they aren't even willing to post on a forum about it and have to wait for a guy to post it, I can only assume it's not that much of a problem.

 

[MiracleOfSound]

However, I await the day when women in games can be as fairly represented as men are. Things like Lara Croft are just annoying, I don't mind tongue in cheek, but I think that the people making Lara Croft are genuinely serious, and are basically 35 year old guys stuck with the mind of a 13 year old hormone addled boy, and this needs to stop.

Funny thing though, I know more girls who idolise Latra Croft than guys. One of my female acquaintances even dressed up as her on Halloween.

Though that may have more to do with Angelina (Fucking) Jolie than pixels.

 

[mad825]

really this argument has no valid point, most of the (bad) examples that were given are from Japanese game developers and publishers, we all know that it is part of their culture rather than ours (as westerners) as they tend to be more lax about female exposer in games.


I will have to say, if the that I play (normally on the PC) and the females tend to be a bit overdressed, I would have the habit to mod it so that they are either wearing skimpy clothes or nothing, so no matter the case it doesn't really matter on "what they are wearing" as there is always some like me changing the clothes (skin)

Before someone makes the argument that people may find this offensive, I would like to remind you computer games are never meant to reflect real life

 

[Caligulove]

Honestly, Gaming need an Ellen Ripley.

Someone that's flawed and traumatized, yet capable enough to stay alive and get things done, whose sort-of attractive, but nevertheless wears pretty unflattering clothes, and even when she is in her undies... isnt really eye candy- that has motherly characteristics.

Then, from going through hell... is able to rise to the occasion and become more badass than an entire platoon of marines put together- yet doesn't come out of it with a smirk and a one-liner, but by the skin of her teeth. Ultimately someone that everyone can relate to.

 

[Drakmeire]

strangely, I found the first No more heroes to be very respectful of women, I'll have to explain, the hardest boss in the game (shinobu) was female and the main character travis respected her too much to kill her, speed buster may be one of the only "ugly" women I've ever seen in a game, since most in games are designed to be perverted fantasies of nerds, the most sexualized character in the game is Travis (see: beam katana charging). and the game never treats the female bosses differently from the male bosses (they are all just people).
but the sequel... not so much.

I know many of you can find flaws in my logic but this is just my opinion.

 

[mxfox408]

Me and my best friend who happens to be a girl are both gamers and she even feels its stupid to get upset about the way women in games are shown she actually laughs about it. Id say female gamers account for probly 5% as opposed to the 95% male gamers so it makes sense to appeal to the vast majority of gamers despite what or how the minority of gamers feel, thats just how business works. Personally i like the sexy look as does my best friend.

 

[TheBritish]

Not that this is totally the topic of the thread, but why do people always pull up the White Knight argument when things come up like this? I honestly don't care if women are "offended" by seeing women half dressed in games. It bothers "me". Particularly when it draws away from the game, but even when I'm just sitting there thinking that it would bother me if I had to play all games as a well oiled guy in tight boxer briefs.
When did it become a "bad thing" to try to get a little equality. Thank god the "White Knight" thing didn't stop women getting the vote, or slaves being freed or the overthrow of corrupt governments... Not that... I can think of... any governments that were overthrown even though they looked awfully fashionable in red...

 

[BlueInkAlchemist]

"chivalry" doesn't mean HELP. it means "selfishness" and "moral high ground with nothing to show for it." you're being chivalrous if you hand a crying girl a hankie, ask her what's wrong, then feel all good about yourself for asking while you're not listening. if you walk away without doing anything for HER, you're being chivalrous. you're being a friend if you try to help her. honestly, it shouldn't matter if a girl or a guy is crying. if you'd only stop because it's a girl, then yes, keep walking.

Helping someone else isn't about making me feel better. It's almost always an inconvenience. If I feel more inclined to offer my assistance to a woman than to a man because I was brought up to respect women and be more receptive to their needs, how does that make me a rapist in all but name? I don't consider myself superior to anybody on the planet. In fact, I know there are a lot of people out there who are ten times better at what I do than I am, on many levels. I do what I can where I can for the benefit of those around me, and if I get thanked for it, I think I'm entitled to feel good about it for a little while, at least until life's next problem belts me across the face.

The definition of chivalry is "polite, kind and unselfish behavior, especially towards women." That doesn't mean that it is exclusive to women. It speaks to a code of behavior that, yes, may get abused by certain individuals to get what they want. But that's no more or less true for chivalry than it is for charity, the behavior of preachers or the motivations of the NAACP. People tend to be out for themselves. Neither you nor I are above selfish behavior. Just as someone using 'chivalrous' behavior to get what they want can be selfish, touting chivalry as 'dead' and claiming that women are oppressed by people being nice to them in order to further one's own agenda isn't any more justified.

In the end, exercising common courtesy - holding a door open, for example - isn't the same as telling a woman she can't vote because she's incapable of rational thought, or following her down a dark alley with a switchblade in hand. I just fail to see the logical connection.

 

[TheScottishFella]

Sadly, the only thing that will cause positive change is more females in the gaming industry. The reason there aren't as many is in some ways caused by discrimination, but mostly because there aren't as many girl gamers. Why? Because a lot of them feel objectified by it.

Vicious circle.

However, I await the day when women in games can be as fairly represented as men are. Things like Lara Croft are just annoying, I don't mind tongue in cheek, but I think that the people making Lara Croft are genuinely serious, and are basically 35 year old guys stuck with the mind of a 13 year old hormone addled boy, and this needs to stop.

Anyway, I agree with you, and I'm always happy to see a gamer girl who's managed to persevere through all this shit to get to the games they love.

Discrimination... Is a bit harsh I think why men are the centre points in games is usually because both sexes can enjoy the game look at it as a film a chick flick (I am not labeling just you know saying a genre) Is likely to be more feminine while action is attracted by both sexes you see game girls commenting on mass effect 2 (Yes I know you can have a girl in this) MW2 eh Saboteur as some of there favourite games and they have males in leads you see the problem with girl games are as follows BOOBS I know this sounds weird but that's what the game industry believes is what will sell games Lara Craft still rakes in the gold and other games with it so when a developer wants to make a girl game they usually focus on making them as trampy as possible look me in the eye and say that you ever once bought the game because of boobs I know I may sound very sexist but it is the truth all guys are horny for girls (Unless gay) and most gamers STILL BUY THE BLOODY GAMES (Death stare to teens) if you want a trend to die out people need to stop buying the games or the problem will persist.

PS I hope I haven't offended if I have I am sorry

 

[spartan773]

Maybe I'm just a crotchety old man before my time.

or one of the few good men who give a damn about women...


welcome to the club... there's snacks on the table in the corner, help yourself ^_^

 

[Tasachan]

It's not all bad news, though. Yesterday I talked about Eternal Darkness [http://www.blueinkalchemy.com/2010/04/13/game-review-half-life-2/] comes to mind, as does Jade from Beyond Good and Evil. But I think it'd be very difficult for me to find a girl gamer who doesn't consider Samus Aran a very positive role model.

What about Heather from Silent Hill 3? She isn't really sexy at all, in fact she's shaped like your average teen. And she kicks ass! If that was me, I'd in the corner crying like a baby. I wouldn't be able to take down all those creepy monsters armed with only a bat or a crowbar. I find her my favourite SH character, partially for those reasons. =)

 

[SavingPrincess]

-TopicSnip=

I have to say, from most of the research I've done for the two pieces I did on this subject, I found that most women actually do like Lara Croft, and the Dead or Alive girls are usually really funny to them. I think guys tend to get more "genuinely bothered" by it than girls do. My personal favorite woman in games is The Princess, as in Peach (obviously) because she is fine with her femininity as well as being able to kick some butt when she needs to; but she's not above getting rescued every now and then (I think it's some sort of twisted role play thing she's got going on with Mario and Bowser). To touch on some of your article points:

At one point in DOAXBV 2, Christie does a pole dance. It's just absolutely shameless exploitation of her sexuality

Actually, it's a shameless reference to her ending in Dead or Alive 3. She's an assassin, and her target was in a strip club, so she pole danced to get close to him and shoved a needle into his spine through the back of his neck. The pole-dancing in Dead or Alive: Xtreme was lifted from that scene.

Bayonetta is a pretty blatant example of female protagonist exploitation

Somewhat invalidated by the fact that she was designed by a woman... not to say that women are incapable of exploiting themselves, but Bayonetta the character is unabashedly "girly" with all her butterflies and rose petals. Also, her personality is self-aware and strong. The game is tongue-in-cheek the whole way through and almost attempts to make you feel "embarrassed" for playing it.

Lara's interesting, as I see her as a very empowering female character. She's well educated, well traveled, refined, incredibly intelligent, strong and self-sufficient. As far as I know, that's why Angelina Jolie was excited to play her. Compare her to someone like the chick from X-Blades and you'll see where I'm coming from. I don't see Lara as the problem, I see her as the solution, and as a character, she's only becoming more believable with time as they more they have a chance to showcase the narrative that drives her, the more real and relatable she becomes; so it's interesting to see you come down on her so hard [sub](that's what she said)[/sub].

If you haven't read my part 1&2 on this, I'd be interested in hearing what you think.

 

[maninahat]

chivalry is DEAD, and we want it that way, because all is does is keep us in a box.

Right. So next time I see a woman hurt, or weeping, or looking absolutely miserable, I should just ignore her completely, because she clearly doesn't want or need any help whatsoever. Got it.

Doubly so if it is a hurt man, if you catch my drift?

Chivalry often has an air of condescension about it. You are supposed to help someone if they are hurt, weeping, or miserable. But that doesn't mean a man should moddycoddle women. Especially seeing as how they wouldn't go to such an extent with another man.

 

[TheBritish]

*snip*

Lara isn't the problem. She's great. She's basicly a Nathan Drake-esque character and nobody thinks Nathan is exploiting guys. (Though I still think Faith and her friend from Mirror's Edge are better examples. The fact that they're female simply doesn't come into it.)

Speaking of... isn't it interesting that characters like Nero and Dante can run around wearing open jackets and no shirts and nobody cries.

It's not the easiest thing to "fix", if it needs fixing at all.

chivalry is DEAD, and we want it that way, because all is does is keep us in a box.

Right. So next time I see a woman hurt, or weeping, or looking absolutely miserable, I should just ignore her completely, because she clearly doesn't want or need any help whatsoever. Got it.

Doubly so if it is a hurt man, if you catch my drift?

Chivalry often has an air of condescension about it. You are supposed to help someone if they are hurt, weeping, or miserable. But that doesn't mean a man should moddycoddle women. Especially seeing as how they wouldn't go to such an extent with another man.

I darn well would! Except a man is more likely to deck me for trying