Girls in Gaming

[Skinny Razor]

What about calling women "girls"? I'm sure there's at least a few females offended by that infantilization.

 

[BlueInkAlchemist]

Ha ha, I think this guy has it right. "Oh look at me, I am so concerned for the plight of women, I empathize with them and respect them! Now, want to go back to my place?" Invariably it seems that men who try to advocate female empowerment are just tools trying to get laid.

My girlfriend doesn't visit this forum actually

And my wife only does so rarely.

 

[hunteriv4]

Ha ha, I think this guy has it right. "Oh look at me, I am so concerned for the plight of women, I empathize with them and respect them! Now, want to go back to my place?" Invariably it seems that men who try to advocate female empowerment are just tools trying to get laid.

Why can't it be both? Why do we have to assume that because a guy is chivalrous he's doing it just to get laid? Can't I respect women and still want to have sex?

Objectification is when you don't have any interest in someone as a person other than sexually. But being sexually attracted to someone you respect simply means you have working hormones. Respect and attraction are hardly mutually exclusive.

Or should I assume the next time my girlfriend cooks dinner for me it's not because she genuinely likes me as a person but because she wants in my pants? See how silly that sounds?

There's a difference between being a realist and a cynic. The latter is going to be perpetually offended anyway so screw 'em =).

 

[lizzielizzie]

It's the worst on MMORPGs
I can't move from one side of a room or area to the other side in the MMO Phantasy Star Universe without some asshole messaging me:

Want to send me a pic?

This. I am forever getting this.

Why can I not just enjoy my game as a player, instead of an object?

Funny story about this particular plague:

My brother and I play City of Heroes. A while back, we were hanging out at the in-game night club attending a gathering for an online radio station. His character and mine were both female. We challenged one of the guys to figure out which of us was the actual female.

He chose...poorly. :-D What that says about my femininity, I don't know, nor do I care. I do know that the guy took it with grace and a touch more respect. Wish more guys would do the same.

As for the rest... take a look at pretty much all media. Women are objectified to sell things. A lot. Because, shitty though it is for womankind, it works. They respond to the OMGBEWBS crowd, they make money, respect be damned. TV shows, movies, beer ads, you name it. Sexy women selling stuff is something that's been going around for decades. Mucha's goddesses sold oatmeal, pin-up girls sold cigarettes and soda. It's culturally entrenched quite solidly. It takes a LOT of work to break something like that down, from a lot of people.

And we have made strides. The fact that there are strong female characters in some games is fantastic. It's huge progress. Are there enough of them? No. Should we buy the ones that do have these characters and play the hell out of them? Yes. Money talks. We don't just need more female gamers...we need more people, male and female, supporting games with good writing and good characterization that depicts women as people. It is, of course, harder to do if the gameplay is shit, but if you can find something that balances the two, BUY IT! Play it. Review it. Tell your friends. Get them to buy it. All the ranting in the world won't get companies to listen if they don't get some cash to back it up.

I've become a big fan of Bioware, for their writing in general and their female characters in particular. It's great playing a game that lets me fully clothe my female character, and lets me kick ass properly with big guns and swords. Hell, at times, it's even a little more fun playing as a female. In Mass Effect 2, headbutting a krogan with a petite redheaded chick is just that much more awesome. Even when it comes to their romantic storylines, they put the power in your character's hands, male or female. (We DID get ripped off a touch in the 'romance scene' department...seriously, all I get is a headbutt from Garrus?!? Bastards!!! ...But that's another rant for another time.)

The separate issue of respect for female gamers themselves... oy. Most of the stupidity I've faced online was from teenaged/young adult men. These particular guys are usually not the ones renowned for mature discourse on a good day. Add the anonymity of the internet and you've got a fine cauldron of major dicks. They're the same guys who use 'gay' or 'fag' as a slur every thirty seconds, get pissy if their team isn't doing well, and log out before their precious gamer stats get dinged for shit performance. They're not great human beings. Very rarely have I faced stupidity from otherwise mature gamers. Flirting, yes. "Show me yer bewbs," no.

Should anyone have to deal with the dicks? No. Not women, not men. Are we stuck with them? Not as long as you have a mute button and a kick feature. Are these idiots educable? Who knows? They need to grow up. Some will. Some won't. I've known and played with both. If you feed the trolls, they get off on it. The best answer to these idiots is a swift boot out of your game.

Just one old gamer chick's opinion and experience.

 

[hunteriv4]

What about calling women "girls"? I'm sure there's at least a few females offended by that infantilization.

So should I be offended if a womyn says that I should enjoy my "boy's night out?" Or if I want to hang with the dudes? Or if my girlfriend calls me "baby?" (I'm fairly certain that's literally an infantilization)

I'm sure there are womyn out there who would be offended by me looking at them. I'm not going to lose sleep over it and I certainly don't want my video games tailored to that audience (who are probably doing more important things, like trying to respell "women" because "men" is in the word).

 

[Rauten]

As much as I more or less agree with the points presented here by the community... aren't these posts sort of useless? I look at them and I can't help but think "More preaching to the converted".

 

[TheBritish]

*snip*

I like this post, not just 'cause it's on my side of the camp . Some good points.
About the fact that women are objectified everywhere... well, I guess my "medium of choice" is games, so I'll work on making games better (no offense but if equality makes games worse, screw it ) and let someone else work on the half naked woman on the cover of Pride and Prejudice

Funnily enough... maybe one of the best things that gets the playing field levelled out a bit in MMOs is the fact that a lot of guys play as girls. Means that if you say to someone "I want pictures of your nipples", you'd better be really sure that you do

As much as I more or less agree with the points presented here by the community... aren't these posts sort of useless? I look at them and I can't help but think "More preaching to the converted".

For me, it's not so much about making changes as it is... discussion As my girlfriend most definately -will- tell you, I like to talk

 

[Flight]

Well said, indeed. As a girl gamer, I've been messaged by people who've never even spoken to me, asking if my (female) avatar "wants to be their girl" or else telling me that I'm not a girl because girls don't exist on the Internet. While I enjoy fanservice from time to time, I don't like it when it becomes objectification. Furthermore, many "girl-oriented" games offend me, what with the pink plastered all over the place and slogans such as "Raise your own virtual baby!"

 

[machineiv]

I disagree with this entire article.

Good job.

Why is it that MEN complain about beautiful women in videogames?

Because sexism is just as much a men's issue. We have to live in a bullshit world where men that drool at breasts and use words like 'ta-tas' represent cultured, reasonable and mature men poorly.

Here's a clue: Beauty is a core part of femininity there I said it.

You did say it. What a big boy, forming your own thoughts. However, wrong. There, I said it.

Femininity relates to a myriad of traits, some of which are universal from culture to culture. Beauty is not one of those things. Motherhood, birth, intuition, the life/death cycle and creativity are certainly core traits of femininity. Beauty is hardly as important to femininity as any of those things. In fact, the fading of beauty and the exaltation of wisdom is an integral part of many strong womens' stories. However, beauty is the one that gets shoved in our faces constantly.

If an idealized male character is strong, powerful, and dominant; an idealized female character will be physically attractive. And the thing is: women don't mind this as much as you think.

Bullshit argument. Men are strong, powerful and dominant in games where that's a primary design goal. Women playing the same parts are not strong, powerful and dominant, they're party dolls. When men are designed as the height of physical fitness, women are portrayed with unrealistic breasts, hips, rears and other sexual features. These things have nothing to do with the roles they play in the game.

Also, you'd be surprised. When you stop using sexually-violent language, and you stop looking at everything from an explicitly male gaze, you'll find that women are far more open to speaking with you about their real feelings. They don't feel pressured to fit in with your male preconceptions.

Lastly: It doesn't matter. Even if women didn't care, and many do, men do. Men care. Our opinions count, too. We're tired of it.

Samus Aran is not a role model for anyone...

Ummmm... Bullshit. Have you ever played Metroid 2? If you replaced Samus with a male character, the story would make less sense. The Metroid series is full of strong womens' stories.

Invariably "good role model" for women means "act like a man." If a woman in a game acts the least bit girly...whoops! She's objectifying women now! She's an offensive steroetype! Blah blah blah. And all these complaints come from men. Women really just don't care.

No. "Act like a man" doesn't mean 'good role model.' That mistake is often made, and I can see why. I don't think you understand. 'Girly' and 'submissive sexual poses on the battlefield' are two completely different things.

Women do care. I can point to hundreds of them. You just ignore their opinions, because you're a misogynist not willing to open your mind a little bit.

I have never met a female gamer who, in a game with a character creator like an MMO or Rock Band, did not create the sexiest character possible.

Then you haven't met many female gamers. I can name distinctly fewer female gamers that maximize sexual traits in their characters, than ones that don't.

Your arguments use a lot of superlatives. You make a lot of sweeping statements. You make a lot of demonstrably untrue statements. You haven't made a clear appeal to logic in your entire post. All you're doing is presenting a very clear example of the problem. If you wonder why men and women alike decry objectification and sexism, you should probably reread your posts before hitting 'post.'

 

[Kookookrazy]

I'm sure there are womyn out there who would be offended by me looking at them. I'm not going to lose sleep over it and I certainly don't want my video games tailored to that audience (who are probably doing more important things, like trying to respell "women" because "men" is in the word).

This guy wins

 

[Grampy_bone]

Ha ha, I think this guy has it right. "Oh look at me, I am so concerned for the plight of women, I empathize with them and respect them! Now, want to go back to my place?" Invariably it seems that men who try to advocate female empowerment are just tools trying to get laid.

Why can't it be both? Why do we have to assume that because a guy is chivalrous he's doing it just to get laid? Can't I respect women and still want to have sex?

Objectification is when you don't have any interest in someone as a person other than sexually. But being sexually attracted to someone you respect simply means you have working hormones. Respect and attraction are hardly mutually exclusive.

Or should I assume the next time my girlfriend cooks dinner for me it's not because she genuinely likes me as a person but because she wants in my pants? See how silly that sounds?

There's a difference between being a realist and a cynic. The latter is going to be perpetually offended anyway so screw 'em =).

The difference between a real man and a tool is that a real man doesn't make a big fucking deal out of it, by say, writing self-glorifying articles on the internet in order to prove how progressive and enlightened they are.

If you take a girl out and constantly make a point out of how chivalrous and respectful you are, then yes you are a tool who is only doing it to get laid.

Also: there's nothing silly about saying women cook for a man to get into his pants. Women do that all the time. If a girl tells you to come over to her place so she can cook you dinner there is about a %99.9 chance you will get laid.

 

[Totenkopf]

AND ANOTHER THING:
The other type of males that try to protect us from the pervs and assholes, I get the vibe that they are doing it just because I am a girl.
"White Knights" piss me off too....not as much as the other types but still.

YES!!!! guys, pay attention: "white knights" are just as creepy, twice as annoying, and at least four times as chauvinistic as the obvious low-life weirdos, if not worse. chivalry is DEAD, and we want it that way, because all is does is keep us in a box. when i'm accosted by a "white knight" online, i do the sensible thing and hit him, because that's how i'd treat a rapist in real life, and there is NO difference. "no difference? that's beyond harsh, and not even true! you stupid lesbian feminazi! go die in a hole!"

but it is. both "white knights" and rapists use political ideas about a man's natural superiority to keep women from becoming strong enough to stand on their own. rapists do it in person, "white knights" do it online, but the mindset is the same-"women are less powerful than me." it makes me sick.

So, does that mean I am a douchebag too, since I said that I feel sorry that women get bothered online (Post #19) and can't just enjoy the game they're playing?

 

[veloper]

there is no problem and there never was

This shit simply sells better. The majority are catering to guys for $$$.

The sims is an example of how you cater to the female demographic, also $$$.

There is no point in wishing for typical shooters and action games to cater less to the guys and compromise for both sexes; this won't sell as well, so it won't happen.

There are games like civilization that are gender neutral, but this is because the genre doesn't need that; different audience again.

Games appealing only to certain demographics is perfectly fine. Targetting a different group doesn't even count as competition.
If enough women are interested in buying non-t&a FPS, FPLs, then those games are already on the market. If not, then this is it.

 

[Skinny Razor]

What about calling women "girls"? I'm sure there's at least a few females offended by that infantilization.

So should I be offended if a womyn says that I should enjoy my "boy's night out?" Or if I want to hang with the dudes? Or if my girlfriend calls me "baby?" (I'm fairly certain that's literally an infantilization)

I'm sure there are womyn out there who would be offended by me looking at them. I'm not going to lose sleep over it and I certainly don't want my video games tailored to that audience (who are probably doing more important things, like trying to respell "women" because "men" is in the word).

Blow a fuse much? Miss the point much?

 

[Raikov]

Why are we still surprised and shocked by this? It has been this way since the discovery of Television, and it won't disappear any time soon.

Sad thing is, it's not only the men who are at fault here.

Sure, we all know that sex sells, but that's not really the problem. The problem is that we all, guys and gals, are growing up with certain prejudices programmed into us by our parents, other family and the society in general.
Guys are supposed to chase skirt, and brag loudly about their supposed success. We also learn about rolemodels, and by them, the definition of 'manly'. And we are supposed to be very independent from an early age.

This makes up the vast majority of male protagonists today. An extremely muscled (or moderately muscled, ever seen a slightly overweight hero wearing glasses?), independent 'role model' that under no circumstances can be a homosexual.

This leaks over into the MMO community. If you're gay or are not attempting to bone every feminine object in sight, you are not manly enough. Oh and by the way, this behaviour is promoted by both sexes, but more on that in a minute.

I'm not sure how you ladies are brought up, but alot of you (not everyone, this also applies to guys) end up as 'damsels in distress/trophy wife' or '***** in the local pub' variants (some of you are marvellous things that increases my faith in mankind, but you are not part of the issue). One thing seems clear though, and that is that most girls are supposed to depend on the group, and not be independent at all.

So, most female characters in games are dependant on male protagonists, and are incredibly incompetent because of it(damsel). The rest are iron-hearted killer ladies, usually there only to command you around or provide snappy comments(*****). These are usually white-and-wealthy westerners, in the case of the 'damsel', and some Mexican girl to be the '*****'.

So, independent guy discovers videogames (and porn....) but no one really cares since he is free to do whatever he wants.

Not-so independent girl discovers videogames (and I hope, porn), and most are persuaded by their group of friends to stay away from the nerdy games.

Result? A lot of male gamers, and few girls. Now this ratio is improving daily, but the issue is not the ratio; a girl should still be able to walk through an in-game-world without anyone caring about the fact that she is a girl. This is not the case, because of the accepted behaviour of guys, and the attention-whore girls.

There is alot of girls that think they are special because they play games, and take advantage of it. And the average guy is supposed to catch on and follow these girls every whim in order to hopefully get to 'score'.


In essence, the gaming world in not 'equal', and will never be more equal then the Real Life place most of us fear and loathe. Sexualisation will be used to sell games for the foreseeable future. The reason? Because it works. This will not change until the old ways of teaching stupid traditions and prejudices are gone, and both sexes can live equally together.

Sorry for the wall of text!
/the idealist


Oh, and there should not be 'male' or 'female' gamers... just gamers.

 

[armaina]

You know what, anyone that says that there aren't many girls in the gaming industry really hasn't been paying attention. Stop making a big deal out of it, there are tons of girls that play games. They usually don't use mics or mention it in game chats because they don't want any attention drawn to them. If people would stop making a big deal about it they may not be so worried about revealing their gender.

Also, I would like to point out that 'casual games' (though I hate that term) are for everyone and everyone can enjoy them if that's your thing. And games don't need to be 'edgy' to be good. Because honestly, if your blood guts shooty game is the same as all the other games out there, I'm going to go back to playing the Sims, not because I'm a girl, but because I think the game is badly made. It just irks me every time I see another rant of a girl stating 'I want games with blood and swearing grrr' because it makes it appear as though that's the only thing that matters.

Oh, and there should not be 'male' or 'female' gamers... just gamers.

exactly

 

[BlueInkAlchemist]

The difference between a real man and a tool is that a real man doesn't make a big fucking deal out of it, by say, writing self-glorifying articles on the internet in order to prove how progressive and enlightened they are.

So what would you say about somebody who's making a big deal out of an article that was posted by someone who, in your opinion, is making a big deal out of something?

To me, there'd be a lot of naked, unfocused and misinformed hostility about that kind of posting.

 

[armaina]

Blow a fuse much? Miss the point much?

Honestly, it seems like you're the one that missed the point. The terms Men and Boys get interchanged just as much as Women and Girls. If you want to nit-pick someone for using the term Girls then the same should be said for any women that uses Boys.

As for myself, I'm not offended if someone uses the term 'girl', I don't see why I would be, it's not like it's a slang or insult.