Girls in Gaming

[hunteriv4]

The difference between a real man and a tool is that a real man doesn't make a big fucking deal out of it, by say, writing self-glorifying articles on the internet in order to prove how progressive and enlightened they are.

If you take a girl out and constantly make a point out of how chivalrous and respectful you are, then yes you are a tool who is only doing it to get laid.

Also: there's nothing silly about saying women cook for a man to get into his pants. Women do that all the time. If a girl tells you to come over to her place so she can cook you dinner there is about a %99.9 chance you will get laid.

Congratulations on totally missing the point. I think. I'm not entirely certain how I'm "self-glorifying" anything. Ok, I lied, I'm not entirely certain how your response relates to my post in any way.

What exactly am I not making a big deal out of? Yes, I can read the "it" but since my post was specifically about not making a big deal out of women in video games you must be reading something someone else wrote. Or simply projecting so hard you're reading your wall instead of your computer screen.

No where did I say anything about myself being chivalrous. I simply said that being attracted to a woman doesn't automatically mean you're objectifying her. Should I feel objectified if a woman looks at me and is attracted to me? Perhaps I'm asking the wrong person.

Then again I suppose I shouldn't even bother arguing with a cynic, which is apparently the real reason you took offense to my post. Before you bother arguing your lack of cynicism please re-read your post around the "[sic]if a woman invites you over to her house for her cooking there is a .1% chance she doesn't just want to get you in bed."

/facepalm

 

[veloper]

The difference between a real man and a tool is that a real man doesn't make a big fucking deal out of it, by say, writing self-glorifying articles on the internet in order to prove how progressive and enlightened they are.

So what would you say about somebody who's making a big deal out of an article that was posted by someone who, in your opinion, is making a big deal out of something?

To me, there'd be a lot of naked, unfocused and misinformed hostility about that kind of posting.

Grampy is right.
Women who play games don't need our help in this. They're better off without our interference.

How do you let the industry know there's enough potential for this thing?
Same as with any other niche genre: start with forming a circle jerk of like minded individuals with the same interest and recruit until you can make enough noise.

If they want their FPS games "non-objectified", that's what gamer girls should do, all 3 of them. Guys cannot be admitted then, because most of us, when we're being honest, either don't mind it or enjoy the view, so we don't make good allies.

 

[fursplodage]

Female gamer here, and the last three games I've played was Batman AA, Assassins creed 2 and L4D2, and I dare say I'm better at them then my boyfriend.

When I play, I tend to stay away from the female playables, simply because they suck and/or look like stupid whores.

Fable 2 might be an exception, since the women there, when you don them in armor and full strengh skill, looks just as badass as the male character. But then again, a woman looking like she actually got the muscles to lift that bazooka or that huge twohanded axe tend to look a little silly and lesbian biker butch. Nothing bad with that, but in general, people prefer a petite young girl over a biker dyke, even though the dyke are more likly to dish out some serious damage.

And the we have the sexist view of the guys in games. If you're not an overly muscled army guy (Chris, Resident Evil 5) with bigger biceps than head, or a sleak gymnastic guy (Assassins Creed, Prince of Persia) who just happen to be devilishly handsome, then you might as well just roll over and die, cause you're not a man. I mean, seriously, wtf?

Wouldn't it be great if more games (and movies, for that matter) had the skinny nerd and the plain jane with a-cup titties, no whore makeup and comfyclothes as the maincharacters?
Someone you could relate to when they accidentally find loaded AK-47s lying around while being chased by a horde of zombies?

 

[awatkins]

Perhaps we are all thinking of women in games being objectified the wrong way. Playing a game is escapism. When a male player is in control of a muscle-bound, awesomely preportioned slab of sexy man meat who is the only one to save the world, it is good escapism because the male character thinks "this is me, the awesome physiqued heroin." Really, who wants to play a game where you are a 5'2" 90lbs dork who has bad acne, wears glasses, a retainer and the ultimate outcome of the game is to go home and avoid commiting suicide?
Now, along with the train of thought that the male audience is willing to escape into the personality and physique of a muscle mountain manzilla who grunts out satisfaction and bellows rage, the opposite must be true in the minds of the designers who create female protaganists (for the most part perhaps, we still do have DOA vollyball).
So the designer thinks " gee, what do girls want to escape into?" and the answer comes out to be: a boobalicious, marble sculpted gluteous maximus, sex icon who can kick ass and get any man she wants.
Why do male fitness magazines show super mucles and female fitness magazines show thin sexy abs, ass and plenty in the mammary department? Because that is what society as a whole would like to look like, no different in games, you want to be the character that depicts you as the physical (and moral to some) object of perfection.

 

[Skinny Razor]

Blow a fuse much? Miss the point much?

Honestly, it seems like you're the one that missed the point. The terms Men and Boys get interchanged just as much as Women and Girls. If you want to nit-pick someone for using the term Girls then the same should be said for any women that uses Boys.

As for myself, I'm not offended if someone uses the term 'girl', I don't see why I would be, it's not like it's a slang or insult.

Maybe you are not, but surely some are, and that's the point: nits are always there to be picked. Nobody does anything that ever pleases everybody. Game developers may or may not be sexist, but their job is to sell games, not try to prove some sociopolitical point. Believe me, that's the last thing you want from folks who are creating fantasy activities for filling our free time.
Feel free to smack me about some more if it passes the time.

 

[hunteriv4]

Why can't it be both? Why do we have to assume that because a guy is chivalrous he's doing it just to get laid? Can't I respect women and still want to have sex?

Objectification is when you don't have any interest in someone as a person other than sexually. But being sexually attracted to someone you respect simply means you have working hormones. Respect and attraction are hardly mutually exclusive.

Or should I assume the next time my girlfriend cooks dinner for me it's not because she genuinely likes me as a person but because she wants in my pants? See how silly that sounds?

There's a difference between being a realist and a cynic. The latter is going to be perpetually offended anyway so screw 'em =).

The difference between a real man and a tool is that a real man doesn't make a big fucking deal out of it, by say, writing self-glorifying articles on the internet in order to prove how progressive and enlightened they are.

If you take a girl out and constantly make a point out of how chivalrous and respectful you are, then yes you are a tool who is only doing it to get laid.

Also: there's nothing silly about saying women cook for a man to get into his pants. Women do that all the time. If a girl tells you to come over to her place so she can cook you dinner there is about a %99.9 chance you will get laid.

Grampy is right.
Women who play games don't need our help in this. They're better off without our interference.

How do you let the industry know there's enough potential for this thing?
Same as with any other niche genre: start with forming a circle jerk of like minded individuals with the same interest and recruit until you can make enough noise.

If they want their FPS games "non-objectified", that's what gamer girls should do, all 3 of them. Guys cannot be admitted then, because most of us, when we're being honest, either don't mind it or enjoy the view, so we don't make good allies.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is Internet Telephone.

 

[BlueInkAlchemist]

Wouldn't it be great if more games (and movies, for that matter) had the skinny nerd and the plain jane with a-cup titties, no whore makeup and comfyclothes as the maincharacters?
Someone you could relate to when they accidentally find loaded AK-47s lying around while being chased by a horde of zombies?

I once again point to Eternal Darkness as an example of this kind of game.

Have you played Half-Life 2? Do you have an opinion on Alyx Vance?

 

[awatkins]

Someone you could relate to when they accidentally find loaded AK-47s lying around while being chased by a horde of zombies?

lol, like that nerdy kid in Zombie Land. More people would behave like him (flinching every time he uses the double barrel, shaking like a leaf when he encounters Woody Harilson, being tricked by good looking girls...yeah, that one would happen a LOT.) than they would behave like Woody Harrilson. But then, nobody would behave like Woody, he is just to awesome to emmulate.

 

[Raikov]

all guys are horny for girls (Unless gay)

I'm sorry mr. Zero Punctuation, but this is pure bullshit. Any male or female can be attracted to their own sex, regardless of their sexuality. I'm not ashamed to say that I find certain men attractive, and I'm VERY heterosexual.

 

[bawkbawkboo1]

don't forget to mention Zoe Castillo and April Ryan in the list of positive female examples in games.

 

[poet_lawreate]

Ah, the only gripe I have is with not being able to play female characters often enough. Games like WoW, Portal, Left 4 Dead, anything where you can actually play as a female protagonist always stick out to me. I don't want games to 'appeal more to my femininity' (that way is pink DSs and Pony Party) but I wish I didn't always have to play as a dude.

Sometimes I get pilloried for 'always choosing the girl'- well yeah. I'd rather shoot zombies, cast spells, open portals with a set of breasts similar to my own. I'd rather hear a woman's disembodied voice coming out of me in first-person games.

More female protagonists, I say- I don't think it would deter any male gamers. After all, how many female night elves do you think are really played by females?

 

[Totenkopf]

Do you also get bothered and quit games when someone gets upset they were called a fag or a ******? Or are women the only group of people you care about whether or not they enjoy their videogames?

I get bothered everytime when someone flames around like a flame thrower, even if I'm not the target, because everyone should enjoy their online experience. But as I said before, I've never witnessed someone bothering women online, as the only woman I've met so far ingame was better than I was,accepted and appreciated by the others.

I just want to play in an enjoyable atmosphere with my fellow gamers, no matter if they are male or female. But it just seems like it was something very bad (apparently "rapist" kind of bad) to say you're sorry that someone get his games ruined over and over again. And it's bad to feel sorry for them because they're female, and feeling sorry for a woman seems to state that you think man are superior. It just blows my mind.

 

[hunteriv4]

Maybe you are not, but surely some are, and that's the point: nits are always there to be picked. Nobody does anything that ever pleases everybody. Game developers may or may not be sexist, but their job is to sell games, not try to prove some sociopolitical point. Believe me, that's the last thing you want from folks who are creating fantasy activities for filling our free time.
Feel free to smack me about some more if it passes the time.

You mean like movies, which never try to prove some sociopolitical point? Huh? Games are another "artistic" entertainment form and as such there are going to be plenty of Michael Moore's, Emmerich's, etc. Perhaps I'm missing the point again.

Speaking of which, I was referring specifically to how "girl" is a perfectly normal synonym for "female" or "woman". I would suggest checking a thesaurus under the heading of "woman" some time and note how the word "girl" is listed. But hey, I suppose that's a sexist thesaurus, right?

To clarify; I was responding directly to the implication that "girl" is an offensive term for an adult female. I compared the situation to it's logical opposite, an adult male being called "boy," and noted that few men would be offended by the term unless used in a derogatory context.

The thing that bothers me most about discussions like this is the implicit assumption that because something is directed towards females as a group it must be inherently derogatory, especially since the same assumption would not be made of males. Therefore women are somehow less "positive" than men or such an assumption would not be made. It is this idea specifically that I am opposed to.

 

[Embz]

I think that this is the main reason that there are not many girl gamers. With almost every game having a male protagonist and any women that are in the game clad in skimpy clothes and a size 0 its no wonder that girls are not attracted to games.
As a female gamer I find myself more drawn towards games where you can create your own character as you have control of how your character looks and their gender. I feel very uncomfortable when playing a game and the character I'm playing as is wearing hardly any clothes and has a body like a matchstick-man with balloons stuck to her chest. I think it intimidates girls to see all these 'perfect' women in games and also how the games objectify them as something to be stared at.
It makes me sad that girls see these characters as a role model and along with the amount unhealthily skinny celebrities that they idolise no wonder that there is a problem with eating disorders in young girls.

 

[Scribjerky]

Ah, the only gripe I have is with not being able to play female characters often enough. Games like WoW, Portal, Left 4 Dead, anything where you can actually play as a female protagonist always stick out to me. I don't want games to 'appeal more to my femininity' (that way is pink DSs and Pony Party) but I wish I didn't always have to play as a dude.

Sometimes I get pilloried for 'always choosing the girl'- well yeah. I'd rather shoot zombies, cast spells, open portals with a set of breasts similar to my own. I'd rather hear a woman's disembodied voice coming out of me in first-person games.

More female protagonists, I say- I don't think it would deter any male gamers. After all, how many female night elves do you think are really played by females?

This. While I'm more likely to pick a female character in L4D for reasons other than her chest(bad AI specifically), I do like being able to play a girl. Just not in an MMO.

Dragon Age Origins actually felt like the game was designed to be played from a female character, which I thought was interesting. If we could just get a couple more games to pull from THAT line of thought. I mean, despite the alterations to Morrigan's clothing between concept art and the actual game. (But that's what interchangeable armor is for, isn't it?)

 

[Grampy_bone]

*snip*

Just an FYI: chopping a post up like that in quotes is frowned upon in this forum.

Here's an interesting thing: you can tell more about a culture by how they spend their money than what they write in books.

If you were to write a book with a female lead who isn't attractive but who goes on to become president and cure cancer, and then declare that your character is a great role model and a true definition of femininity, I wouldn't argue with you.

However if you wrote a book where an attractive everywoman meets a dominant male figure who seduces her and ravishes her sexually [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight_(series)], you'd sell a lot more copies.

I want you to look up how much money the cosmetics and fashion industries make every year. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Clearly women are obsessed with beauty. You can point out plenty of girls who defy this standard, sure, but you can't argue it's the norm. The common argument here is that women only act this way because our culture "makes" them do so, thus implying that women are all brainwashed by the male-dominated media and can't act or think for themselves, which is pretty damn insulting.

I pointed out that idealized women are portrayed as attractive, and you didn't disagree with me. What exactly is your point then? A strong, powerful, and dominant male need not be physically ripped because the qualities which make a man ideal are more ephemeral. At the same time, an idealized woman will, no matter what else, virtually always be physically attractive in some way, because men are attracted to looks. If you think being attractive to the opposite sex isn't important in an ideal character, Mr. Darwin would like to have a word with you. Beauty in women is prized by both sexes and none of your rantings or invectives will change that.

When you talk about Samus's gender being important to the story of Metroid 2, I assume you're referring to her act of sparing the baby metroid. How is her gender important here? Are you implying that men cannot show compassion or mercy to other creatures? Now which of us is the chauvinist?

You may claim to be a paragon of enlightenment towards females but you clearly display a great deal of self-loathing and hatred towards your own gender, and that is pretty sad.

 

[poet_lawreate]

I think that this is the main reason that there are not many girl gamers. With almost every game having a male protagonist and any women that are in the game clad in skimpy clothes and a size 0 its no wonder that girls are not attracted to games.
As a female gamer I find myself more drawn towards games where you can create your own character as you have control of how your character looks and their gender. I feel very uncomfortable when playing a game and the character I'm playing as is wearing hardly any clothes and has a body like a matchstick-man with balloons stuck to her chest. I think it intimidates girls to see all these 'perfect' women in games and also how the games objectify them as something to be stared at.
It makes me sad that girls see these characters as a role model and along with the amount unhealthily skinny celebrities that they idolise no wonder that there is a problem with eating disorders in young girls.

I agree with you here, but I have to say that the majority of male gamers are probably not broad-shouldered, intensely-muscled, slim-waisted prettyboys. Gaming isn't kind to anyone in terms of body image.

It is however possible that this represents more escapism for men than it does for women- what do the male gamers here think?
Personally there's no escapism involved for me in being a big-breasted sex kitten. I don't have any issues with my body image but I don't like that much and I try to ignore it.

 

[TheBritish]

Ah, the only gripe I have is with not being able to play female characters often enough. Games like WoW, Portal, Left 4 Dead, anything where you can actually play as a female protagonist always stick out to me. I don't want games to 'appeal more to my femininity' (that way is pink DSs and Pony Party) but I wish I didn't always have to play as a dude.

Sometimes I get pilloried for 'always choosing the girl'- well yeah. I'd rather shoot zombies, cast spells, open portals with a set of breasts similar to my own. I'd rather hear a woman's disembodied voice coming out of me in first-person games.

More female protagonists, I say- I don't think it would deter any male gamers. After all, how many female night elves do you think are really played by females?

This. While I'm more likely to pick a female character in L4D for reasons other than her chest(bad AI specifically), I do like being able to play a girl. Just not in an MMO.

Dragon Age Origins actually felt like the game was designed to be played from a female character, which I thought was interesting. If we could just get a couple more games to pull from THAT line of thought. I mean, despite the alterations to Morrigan's clothing between concept art and the actual game. (But that's what interchangeable armor is for, isn't it?)

I remember one playthrough I did as a City Elf started with me marrying a dude... that was... something that wouldn't happen in most games. You wouldn't, even as a female, be going for the guy by way of plot . The Human Noble story felt much more "male" though. Not a bad thing though

 

[Scribjerky]

Ah, the only gripe I have is with not being able to play female characters often enough. Games like WoW, Portal, Left 4 Dead, anything where you can actually play as a female protagonist always stick out to me. I don't want games to 'appeal more to my femininity' (that way is pink DSs and Pony Party) but I wish I didn't always have to play as a dude.

Sometimes I get pilloried for 'always choosing the girl'- well yeah. I'd rather shoot zombies, cast spells, open portals with a set of breasts similar to my own. I'd rather hear a woman's disembodied voice coming out of me in first-person games.

More female protagonists, I say- I don't think it would deter any male gamers. After all, how many female night elves do you think are really played by females?

This. While I'm more likely to pick a female character in L4D for reasons other than her chest(bad AI specifically), I do like being able to play a girl. Just not in an MMO.

Dragon Age Origins actually felt like the game was designed to be played from a female character, which I thought was interesting. If we could just get a couple more games to pull from THAT line of thought. I mean, despite the alterations to Morrigan's clothing between concept art and the actual game. (But that's what interchangeable armor is for, isn't it?)

I remember one playthrough I did as a City Elf started with me marrying a dude... that was... something that wouldn't happen in most games. You wouldn't, even as a female, be going for the guy by way of plot . The Human Noble story felt much more "male" though. Not a bad thing though

I agree with the Human Noble. I won't play that through as a female. I can't do it. xD

I've got a female for the mage, Dalish and dwarf origins though. Played through male on city elf. It was interesting.