Girls in Gaming

[Grampy_bone]

The difference between a real man and a tool is that a real man doesn't make a big fucking deal out of it, by say, writing self-glorifying articles on the internet in order to prove how progressive and enlightened they are.

If you take a girl out and constantly make a point out of how chivalrous and respectful you are, then yes you are a tool who is only doing it to get laid.

Also: there's nothing silly about saying women cook for a man to get into his pants. Women do that all the time. If a girl tells you to come over to her place so she can cook you dinner there is about a %99.9 chance you will get laid.

Congratulations on totally missing the point. I think. I'm not entirely certain how I'm "self-glorifying" anything. Ok, I lied, I'm not entirely certain how your response relates to my post in any way.

What exactly am I not making a big deal out of? Yes, I can read the "it" but since my post was specifically about not making a big deal out of women in video games you must be reading something someone else wrote. Or simply projecting so hard you're reading your wall instead of your computer screen.

No where did I say anything about myself being chivalrous. I simply said that being attracted to a woman doesn't automatically mean you're objectifying her. Should I feel objectified if a woman looks at me and is attracted to me? Perhaps I'm asking the wrong person.

Then again I suppose I shouldn't even bother arguing with a cynic, which is apparently the real reason you took offense to my post. Before you bother arguing your lack of cynicism please re-read your post around the "[sic]if a woman invites you over to her house for her cooking there is a .1% chance she doesn't just want to get you in bed."

/facepalm

You're the one who brought up chivalry, not me. That is what I was referring to with 'It.' You asked if Chivalry can be innocent or if it always has an ulterior motive (sex), and I responded by saying that if a guy doesn't make a big deal out of it then it's fine, but if he brags about how chivalrous he is then people should be wary. The 'self-glorifying' comment refers to the OP, not you. I apologize if we weren't on the same page and I misinterpreted your position.

Also: I argue that assuming a girl wants to cook for me because she is attracted to me makes me an optimist.

 

[BluenetteDiviner]

And I do get a little stick for being a female gamer, everybody seems to think that a female gamer is some fat chick who never leaves the house and couldn't attract a flea from a dog, or as you said, just play really not very exciting games like cooking mama. :/

That's just the sort of stereotype I'd love to dispel. I know I have about as much chance of doing that as becoming King of Londinium and wearing a shiny hat, but I'll do what I can anyway, dammit.

Thankyou, at least some people don't believe the stereotype Well hopefully other people will follow in your lead. ^^

 

[Grampy_bone]

The difference between a real man and a tool is that a real man doesn't make a big fucking deal out of it, by say, writing self-glorifying articles on the internet in order to prove how progressive and enlightened they are.

So what would you say about somebody who's making a big deal out of an article that was posted by someone who, in your opinion, is making a big deal out of something?

To me, there'd be a lot of naked, unfocused and misinformed hostility about that kind of posting.

True enough, yet you cannot claim that creating a thread is the same as commenting on one. I didn't solicit your opinion, you solicited mine.

 

[Raikov]

Ah, the only gripe I have is with not being able to play female characters often enough. Games like WoW, Portal, Left 4 Dead, anything where you can actually play as a female protagonist always stick out to me. I don't want games to 'appeal more to my femininity' (that way is pink DSs and Pony Party) but I wish I didn't always have to play as a dude.

Sometimes I get pilloried for 'always choosing the girl'- well yeah. I'd rather shoot zombies, cast spells, open portals with a set of breasts similar to my own. I'd rather hear a woman's disembodied voice coming out of me in first-person games.

More female protagonists, I say- I don't think it would deter any male gamers. After all, how many female night elves do you think are really played by females?

This. While I'm more likely to pick a female character in L4D for reasons other than her chest(bad AI specifically), I do like being able to play a girl. Just not in an MMO.

Dragon Age Origins actually felt like the game was designed to be played from a female character, which I thought was interesting. If we could just get a couple more games to pull from THAT line of thought. I mean, despite the alterations to Morrigan's clothing between concept art and the actual game. (But that's what interchangeable armor is for, isn't it?)

It was better in ages past...

But seriously, older RPG:s (Baldur's Gate, Morrowind, Arcanum) was much better at 'gender equality' then modern games. The only difference I remember was that playing a woman in Arcanum got you -1 strength and +1 dexterity, but that's it.

All three examples can be played as either gender, and at least Baldur's gate and Arcanum had different opportunities for the different genders.

And about choosing the gender in games, I always pick the one that is most interesting, so it's mostly female characters. But that's only in RPG:s, not MMO:s, where I always strive to make an original character. I'd rather be an old, fat and bald man then generic skimpy elf #192.

And you mention armour, and I like games that makes armour as realistic as possible. I don't like bikini-mails (for them gals) or gundam-suits(for the guys). There is a reason that armour should be covering your belly-button and arms/legs...

 

[Danny Ocean]

AND ANOTHER THING:
The other type of males that try to protect us from the pervs and assholes, I get the vibe that they are doing it just because I am a girl.
"White Knights" piss me off too....not as much as the other types but still.

To be fair it's hardly a regular occurrence to have to protect guys from pervs and assholes, is it?

 

[Skinny Razor]

Maybe you are not, but surely some are, and that's the point: nits are always there to be picked. Nobody does anything that ever pleases everybody. Game developers may or may not be sexist, but their job is to sell games, not try to prove some sociopolitical point. Believe me, that's the last thing you want from folks who are creating fantasy activities for filling our free time.
Feel free to smack me about some more if it passes the time.

You mean like movies, which never try to prove some sociopolitical point? Huh? Games are another "artistic" entertainment form and as such there are going to be plenty of Michael Moore's, Emmerich's, etc. Perhaps I'm missing the point again.


Speaking of which, I was referring specifically to how "girl" is a perfectly normal synonym for "female" or "woman". I would suggest checking a thesaurus under the heading of "woman" some time and note how the word "girl" is listed. But hey, I suppose that's a sexist thesaurus, right?

To clarify; I was responding directly to the implication that "girl" is an offensive term for an adult female. I compared the situation to it's logical opposite, an adult male being called "boy," and noted that few men would be offended by the term unless used in a derogatory context.

The thing that bothers me most about discussions like this is the implicit assumption that because something is directed towards females as a group it must be inherently derogatory, especially since the same assumption would not be made of males. Therefore women are somehow less "positive" than men or such an assumption would not be made. It is this idea specifically that I am opposed to.

Didatic films generally suck balls, are completely one-sided, and are the tyranny of the makers or their audience, like Moore's factually dificient preaching to his little choir.

Everybody would be offended by a term used in a derogatory manner, so that's a little bit of nothing. (Trying calling a black male "boy").
The fact remains, many women would not tolerate being referred to as "girl" in many situations. One wonders why you are so intolerant of their intolerance.
The idea you specifically opposed to makes no sense. Many things directed towards females as a group are, in fact derogatory (that's the point of the entire got-damn OP), and whether the same assumption is made of males is of no concern.
In fact, your position seems to reside completely on assumptions about what others are implicitly thinking. Yet you're happy to assume that '"girl" is a perfectly normal synonym for "female" or "woman"', which is an absolutely ridiculous statement. In my thesaurus, "girl" is listed as a synonym for "female, but NOT for "woman", because there are differences in connotation that you seem reluctant to acknowledge.

 

[Scribjerky]

-snip-

This. While I'm more likely to pick a female character in L4D for reasons other than her chest(bad AI specifically), I do like being able to play a girl. Just not in an MMO.

Dragon Age Origins actually felt like the game was designed to be played from a female character, which I thought was interesting. If we could just get a couple more games to pull from THAT line of thought. I mean, despite the alterations to Morrigan's clothing between concept art and the actual game. (But that's what interchangeable armor is for, isn't it?)

It was better in ages past...

But seriously, older RPG:s (Baldur's Gate, Morrowind, Arcanum) was much better at 'gender equality' then modern games. The only difference I remember was that playing a woman in Arcanum got you -1 strength and +1 dexterity, but that's it.

All three examples can be played as either gender, and at least Baldur's gate and Arcanum had different opportunities for the different genders.

And about choosing the gender in games, I always pick the one that is most interesting, so it's mostly female characters. But that's only in RPG:s, not MMO:s, where I always strive to make an original character. I'd rather be an old, fat and bald man then generic skimpy elf #192.

And you mention armour, and I like games that makes armour as realistic as possible. I don't like bikini-mails (for them gals) or gundam-suits(for the guys). There is a reason that armour should be covering your belly-button and arms/legs...

Oh I love the hell out of Baldur's Gate. And Morrowind. LOVE THEM. I don't think I could possibly express it in words here on the site. I agree entirely that they were much better, gender equality wise, than anything that's on the market right now. Thanks for reminding me to go play them. You rock.

 

[Raikov]

And I do get a little stick for being a female gamer, everybody seems to think that a female gamer is some fat chick who never leaves the house and couldn't attract a flea from a dog, or as you said, just play really not very exciting games like cooking mama. :/

That's just the sort of stereotype I'd love to dispel. I know I have about as much chance of doing that as becoming King of Londinium and wearing a shiny hat, but I'll do what I can anyway, dammit.

Thankyou, at least some people don't believe the stereotype Well hopefully other people will follow in your lead. ^^

This reminds me of the 'male nerd' stereotype as well. Not all are skinny or fat, some of us works out and prefer to be at least moderately fit.

Some of us go running several times a week just to feel the pain in the legs and lungs, and get completely exhausted in order to forget that we don't have a life, but that's a different story for another day. xD

 

[TheBritish]

-snip-

This. While I'm more likely to pick a female character in L4D for reasons other than her chest(bad AI specifically), I do like being able to play a girl. Just not in an MMO.

Dragon Age Origins actually felt like the game was designed to be played from a female character, which I thought was interesting. If we could just get a couple more games to pull from THAT line of thought. I mean, despite the alterations to Morrigan's clothing between concept art and the actual game. (But that's what interchangeable armor is for, isn't it?)

It was better in ages past...

But seriously, older RPG:s (Baldur's Gate, Morrowind, Arcanum) was much better at 'gender equality' then modern games. The only difference I remember was that playing a woman in Arcanum got you -1 strength and +1 dexterity, but that's it.

All three examples can be played as either gender, and at least Baldur's gate and Arcanum had different opportunities for the different genders.

And about choosing the gender in games, I always pick the one that is most interesting, so it's mostly female characters. But that's only in RPG:s, not MMO:s, where I always strive to make an original character. I'd rather be an old, fat and bald man then generic skimpy elf #192.

And you mention armour, and I like games that makes armour as realistic as possible. I don't like bikini-mails (for them gals) or gundam-suits(for the guys). There is a reason that armour should be covering your belly-button and arms/legs...

Oh I love the hell out of Baldur's Gate. And Morrowind. LOVE THEM. I don't think I could possibly express it in words here on the site. I agree entirely that they were much better, gender equality wise, than anything that's on the market right now. Thanks for reminding me to go play them. You rock.

The woman with you at the start of the Dragon Age Awakening add-on was great. She looked good in the heavy armour, held her own and (because I lost my main weapon in the changeover) pretty much lead the party. She was also interesting and female without running to a man at the first sign of trouble

 

[Mr.logic]

do you think you saying something will change any of the so called jerkoffs opinions, the calm level headed person has already made there decision and jerks are stubborn about theres i would like to see change but humanity almost never fails to dissapoint. P.S. i wish oh how BADLY i wish i knew a girl who played videogames, in fact i hope shes better than me

 

[fursplodage]

Wouldn't it be great if more games (and movies, for that matter) had the skinny nerd and the plain jane with a-cup titties, no whore makeup and comfyclothes as the maincharacters?
Someone you could relate to when they accidentally find loaded AK-47s lying around while being chased by a horde of zombies?

I once again point to Eternal Darkness as an example of this kind of game.

Have you played Half-Life 2? Do you have an opinion on Alyx Vance?

I've never had the chance, really. I tried it once but it wasn't really my type of game. But from what I've seen around the net about Alyx Vance I must say she looks awesome, without looking whoreish. But then again, it's valve, so it's not much of a suprise there.

 

[BluenetteDiviner]

This reminds me of the 'male nerd' stereotype as well. Not all are skinny or fat, some of us works out and prefer to be at least moderately fit.

Some of us go running several times a week just to feel the pain in the legs and lungs, and get completely exhausted in order to forget that we don't have a life, but that's a different story for another day. xD

That's very true. There should be work going into dispelling the male gamer stereotype as well. ._. We have a lot of work ahead of us XD

 

[Rainboq]

It's the worst on MMORPGs
I can't move from one side of a room or area to the other side in the MMO Phantasy Star Universe without some asshole messaging me:

Want to send me a pic?

And another thing:
There is only one pair of pants for female characters in the game....and there is only one pair of shoes you can wear with it......what the fuck is that about?! All the other lower body part clothes are either very short..shorts and skirts.

AND ANOTHER THING:
The other type of males that try to protect us from the pervs and assholes, I get the vibe that they are doing it just because I am a girl.
"White Knights" piss me off too....not as much as the other types but still.

Ouch, I don't eveny your gender
OT frankly, I just let girls play, they're human too!

 

[fursplodage]

Someone you could relate to when they accidentally find loaded AK-47s lying around while being chased by a horde of zombies?

lol, like that nerdy kid in Zombie Land. More people would behave like him (flinching every time he uses the double barrel, shaking like a leaf when he encounters Woody Harilson, being tricked by good looking girls...yeah, that one would happen a LOT.) than they would behave like Woody Harrilson. But then, nobody would behave like Woody, he is just to awesome to emmulate.

Love that movie, and kudos to the nerdy kid for bonking the sexy girl from down the corridor with a toilet lid. Fucking epic.
Only a few men have that total niceguy badassness, and I honestly don't mind them in games/movies. As long as they don't go Bond, it's okay

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

You know, the one thing I'd like to see in games that is most likely never to happen? I'd like to see an RPG, where you choose gender/appearance/personality at the startup, that doesn't outline the canon as male. Most of them I've run into, do, from Male Revan all the way to Commander Shepard.

I've always thought the storylines in games like KotOR and Morrowind would be more interesting if Revan and the Nerevarine were female, anyway.

I always seem to play my RPG's as a fem, definitely all Bioware thats for sure. I used to think Its because I prefered staring at a fem for the next 30+ hours of gaming, but I don;t know.

chivalry is DEAD, and we want it that way, because all is does is keep us in a box.

Right. So next time I see a woman hurt, or weeping, or looking absolutely miserable, I should just ignore her completely, because she clearly doesn't want or need any help whatsoever. Got it.

"chivalry" doesn't mean HELP. it means "selfishness" and "moral high ground with nothing to show for it." you're being chivalrous if you hand a crying girl a hankie, ask her what's wrong, then feel all good about yourself for asking while you're not listening. if you walk away without doing anything for HER, you're being chivalrous. you're being a friend if you try to help her. honestly, it shouldn't matter if a girl or a guy is crying. if you'd only stop because it's a girl, then yes, keep walking

edit: if ANYONE is physically hurt, contact the proper medical authorities. that's got nothing to do with chivalry.

THANK YOU! So many "I'm a Nice Guy" types or other types of "Gentlemen" always go on about how they hold doors open for women etc etc where as if they really were so nice, they wouldnt focus on how they do these things for women, they'd focus on how they do these things for everyone, or even better, not even want praise for it at all.

Topics like this reek to me of "White Knight" also there have been alot of these "How do women feel about how the big nasty online men treat them" threads recently. As it has just been stated: white knights, you are just as sexist as the online pigs

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Something that irked me when I've thought about this for the last week or so is the fact that us girls are painted out as if we are victimized by the stereotyping of the female characters... But guys aren't?

Let's take a look at one of the most prolific and well liked gaming characters of all times. I am of course refering to the Duke of One Liners, Duke Nuke'Em himself. He's a man who kicks ass, chew bubblegum and scope out the broads, preferably all three at the same time. His biceps is the size of a normal mans waist and his ego so swollen it rivals the size of Mercurius. How come no one is ever upset that Duke Nuke'Em is a stereotypical manly man?

See, the problem here isn't that female stereotypes exist in computer games. It is that female stereotypes are somehow regarded as something inherently negative. So, every girl in Tekken has a revealing outfit? They can still kick your ass just aswell as any of the guys and all of them exhibit positive traits, whatever it is independence, friendship or kindness. So Sheva is dressed for a day on the town while Chris seems like he is ready for urban combat? Does it really matter, when Sheva gets just as much exposition as Chris does and is an equally well developed character?

Personally, I didn't get my female role models from computer games, just as I don't think any guy has gotten their male role models from computer games. I can agree that there is a fixation on scantily clad women in games, what I can't agree to however is that the stereotypes presented are inherently more negative than the stereotypes presented for guys. That negativity is in the eye of the beholder and it really says more about the beholder than the stereotype itself.

 

[pedrnorth]

I was under the impression that feminists have seen the embrace of female sexuality as an advancement for women's rights against the oppressive moralism of certain chauvinistic religions. How do you appropriately distinguish this from objectification?

 

[Sarah Kerrigan]

Grim in SPlinter Cell Conviction is AWESOME

 

[Criquefreak]

Reminds me of something I used to tell 'guild'-mates in FFXI, "If you're thinking about me in terms of gender, you're probably doing something wrong." With the notable exception of real-life romantic pursuits, there's little elese that can legitimately claim reason to distinguish gender as justification for anything.

In the professional world it would only matter in prostitution (though I doubt as much as most people would claim). Even though there are certain things like maternity leave that could be brought up as objections, I imagine quite a few raise an eyebrow at the thought that a man wouldn't want to also be involved in the settling-in phase of a new child. What I would listen to as far as professionalism objections is the all too frequent tasteless attire. Causing needless distractions and distinctions in the work-place is counter-productive and more businesses should adopt gender-irrelevant standards.

In gaming, it's not really much different. It's often argued that womens' brains and mens' brains have a lot of significant differences and that plenty of games are 'geared' towards appealing to a male audience. But, having seen a number of women-exclusive gaming groups that focus on the ePeen-loving Xbox and first-person shooters, I'm inclined to scoff at such arguments. So, rather than trying to appeal to one or the other, gaming developers should really put focus onto trying to just create a good story/good game and let the player's choices determine how the themes skew rather than assuming that the only people that will ever play are the testosterone junky, machismo-obsessed men and boys. Besides, I'm more inclined to believe that any man that treats a woman like a sex object is just attempting to cover latent homosexuality as they've clearly got no interest in actual women.

As far as the common fallacies of 'it's just a game' and the 95/5 argument...

Immersion is a very important facet of games; without a significant amount of simulation of reality (even if it's just making the characters relatable or the scenario plausibly dismissed rather than evaluated) games will crash. One of the dominant trends in games of late is the visual appeal, bringing more attention to the discrepancies and in particular the misrepresentation of women. I also happen to know a number of men that don't play male characters because they're sickened by the way male characters look, but at least they can have the overly-fantasized porn star depictions of women as a consolation prize.

The other fallacy of only 5% of the games market being women, I've never seen a single legitimate piece of study on the topic that has skewed beyond 70-30. Heck, I can get similar statiistics just using all the people I know (which is sad because I know a disporpotionally larger number of men than women).

Edit: And if the worst a woman's had to put up with is being harassed for a picture or asked to cyber... I envy them greatly.