Girls in Gaming

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jamesworkshop

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Gethsemani said:
Something that irked me when I've thought about this for the last week or so is the fact that us girls are painted out as if we are victimized by the stereotyping of the female characters... But guys aren't?

Let's take a look at one of the most prolific and well liked gaming characters of all times. I am of course refering to the Duke of One Liners, Duke Nuke'Em himself. He's a man who kicks ass, chew bubblegum and scope out the broads, preferably all three at the same time. His biceps is the size of a normal mans waist and his ego so swollen it rivals the size of Mercurius. How come no one is ever upset that Duke Nuke'Em is a stereotypical manly man?

See, the problem here isn't that female stereotypes exist in computer games. It is that female stereotypes are somehow regarded as something inherently negative. So, every girl in Tekken has a revealing outfit? They can still kick your ass just aswell as any of the guys and all of them exhibit positive traits, whatever it is independence, friendship or kindness. So Sheva is dressed for a day on the town while Chris seems like he is ready for urban combat? Does it really matter, when Sheva gets just as much exposition as Chris does and is an equally well developed character?

Personally, I didn't get my female role models from computer games, just as I don't think any guy has gotten their male role models from computer games. I can agree that there is a fixation on scantily clad women in games, what I can't agree to however is that the stereotypes presented are inherently more negative than the stereotypes presented for guys. That negativity is in the eye of the beholder and it really says more about the beholder than the stereotype itself.
I though Sheva was an awesome character considering she was a tough action orientated women that wasn't a massive ***** or ate more carpet than a broken vaccum cleaner.
Also nothing says role models have to be the same gender as you.
 

shemoanscazrex3

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Mar 24, 2010
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I think games in general stereotype. Most heroes are white handsome and strong. Its just that since we are mostly a male dominated industry we don't look too much into it. Also gay characters all seem to be the flamboyant"hey guuurl" stereotype. This goes far beyond gaming and into movies. The only thing with films is that there is some variety. Also you never see any male nude mods outside of The Sims series not saying I care for either but it just came to me
 

TheBritish

The really, quite jolly rascal
Nov 12, 2009
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I just want to say that... surprisingly in a thread where I came down saying that I thought that a lot of images in games are insulting (to me, actually, but meh) and detract from the game, I'm leaving the thread feeling repeatedly insulted myself. Apparantly discussing this topic makes me a rapist, or at best I'm only doing it to convince women to have sex with me repeatedly as I tell them how opressed they are.
It's... disappointing.
 

Katana314

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Mr Ink 5000 said:
THANK YOU! So many "I'm a Nice Guy" types or other types of "Gentlemen" always go on about how they hold doors open for women etc etc where as if they really were so nice, they wouldnt focus on how they do these things for women, they'd focus on how they do these things for everyone, or even better, not even want praise for it at all.

Topics like this reek to me of "White Knight" also there have been alot of these "How do women feel about how the big nasty online men treat them" threads recently. As it has just been stated: white knights, you are just as sexist as the online pigs
Kind of reminds me how in most Japanese stories (anime, RPGs, etc) most good-looking women are victimized in random ways, and anyone treating them badly is made out as a villain as this strange author chivalry thing.

There was a recent Simpsons episode where Bart kissed a girl who he thought really liked her, and she goes ballistic. Then later on, kisses him back, and seems to alternate between liking him or not. But she's never "punished" throughout the episode and nobody minds because her appearance and personality show her as "the victim who should be treated well"

She's a person. If I were Bart, I'd give a solid uppercut after the 6th mood swing. It's what a girl would do to a guy in that situation.
 

Grampy_bone

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Gethsemani said:
Something that irked me when I've thought about this for the last week or so is the fact that us girls are painted out as if we are victimized by the stereotyping of the female characters... But guys aren't?

Let's take a look at one of the most prolific and well liked gaming characters of all times. I am of course refering to the Duke of One Liners, Duke Nuke'Em himself. He's a man who kicks ass, chew bubblegum and scope out the broads, preferably all three at the same time. His biceps is the size of a normal mans waist and his ego so swollen it rivals the size of Mercurius. How come no one is ever upset that Duke Nuke'Em is a stereotypical manly man?

See, the problem here isn't that female stereotypes exist in computer games. It is that female stereotypes are somehow regarded as something inherently negative. So, every girl in Tekken has a revealing outfit? They can still kick your ass just aswell as any of the guys and all of them exhibit positive traits, whatever it is independence, friendship or kindness. So Sheva is dressed for a day on the town while Chris seems like he is ready for urban combat? Does it really matter, when Sheva gets just as much exposition as Chris does and is an equally well developed character?

Personally, I didn't get my female role models from computer games, just as I don't think any guy has gotten their male role models from computer games. I can agree that there is a fixation on scantily clad women in games, what I can't agree to however is that the stereotypes presented are inherently more negative than the stereotypes presented for guys. That negativity is in the eye of the beholder and it really says more about the beholder than the stereotype itself.
This is very true. Duke Nukem at least is meant to be a parody; look at Kratos from God of War and tell me that guy isn't an offensive cliche.

I recall Chris Rock lamented that every time a black person makes a movie people always ask if they are trying to be a role model. Can't black people make a movie just for fun and profit like the rest of us? No one asks white guys if they're trying to be role models.

Essentially, singling out women in games and demanding that they be portrayed according to such-in-such standards in discrimination.
 

GBlair88

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Demented Teddy said:
It's the worst on MMORPGs
I can't move from one side of a room or area to the other side in the MMO Phantasy Star Universe without some asshole messaging me:

Low-life said:
Want to send me a pic?
Send them a picture of some gangrene or maybe a bad case of trench foot and they might stop.
 

mushupork3mpire

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Apr 14, 2010
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GBlair88 said:
Demented Teddy said:
It's the worst on MMORPGs
I can't move from one side of a room or area to the other side in the MMO Phantasy Star Universe without some asshole messaging me:

Low-life said:
Want to send me a pic?
Send them a picture of some gangrene or maybe a bad case of trench foot and they might stop.
thats an amazing idea. do that. or send a pic of M.C. Geiney :D
 

Meggiepants

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Jan 19, 2010
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I've never really let it bother me that video games glorify the softer female body parts. But then I've never been bothered by that type of thing in general, be it in television, movies or print media. I guess I've just been desensitized by being bombarded with these images most of my life. I don't know if I should be depressed about that or not, but it is the way it is.

What I am bothered by is the fact that in most media, men are allowed more range when it comes to body type and age, whereas most female actors have to fit a particular body type to get on screen. This bothers me more because it means often the female parts in film are horribly acted because it was more important to get a twenty year old vixen whose emotive range is thirty kinds of pout.

Fortunately, for now, this hasn't bled over into the video game medium since all actors lend to their roles are the voices. But one day this might not be true. I dread the day when the next Megan Fox is given the lead in a video game because she's hot.
 

Veldaroth

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Scribjerky said:
bodare said:
Scribjerky said:
poet_lawreate said:
This. While I'm more likely to pick a female character in L4D for reasons other than her chest(bad AI specifically), I do like being able to play a girl. Just not in an MMO.

Dragon Age Origins actually felt like the game was designed to be played from a female character, which I thought was interesting. If we could just get a couple more games to pull from THAT line of thought. I mean, despite the alterations to Morrigan's clothing between concept art and the actual game. (But that's what interchangeable armor is for, isn't it?)
It was better in ages past...

But seriously, older RPG:s (Baldur's Gate, Morrowind, Arcanum) was much better at 'gender equality' then modern games. The only difference I remember was that playing a woman in Arcanum got you -1 strength and +1 dexterity, but that's it.

All three examples can be played as either gender, and at least Baldur's gate and Arcanum had different opportunities for the different genders.

And about choosing the gender in games, I always pick the one that is most interesting, so it's mostly female characters. But that's only in RPG:s, not MMO:s, where I always strive to make an original character. I'd rather be an old, fat and bald man then generic skimpy elf #192.

And you mention armour, and I like games that makes armour as realistic as possible. I don't like bikini-mails (for them gals) or gundam-suits(for the guys). There is a reason that armour should be covering your belly-button and arms/legs...
Oh I love the hell out of Baldur's Gate. And Morrowind. LOVE THEM. I don't think I could possibly express it in words here on the site. I agree entirely that they were much better, gender equality wise, than anything that's on the market right now. Thanks for reminding me to go play them. You rock.

So yeah, I kind of appreciate this topic since I always seem to find myself playing games that were obviously made with male gamers in mind. I played a game once where they didn't even bother changing the pronouns from he to she. Draconis 2 and Vampire: The Masquerade were two games that just made you feel awkward if you played as a girl, since all sorts of girls would flirt with you, but no guys. As a straight girl myself, I'd appreciate it if game developers would at least make an effort to even things out if they are going to give you the ability to play as a female character.

Luckily, Bioware usually does a great job with this. Baldur's Gate, Morrowind, and Mass Effect all did a great job altering dialog or in some cases adding content depending what gender you play.

And I'd probably have to say that MMO's are the worst.
 

Space Cowgirl

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Oct 21, 2009
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Thank you, good sir, you've just made my day. I wholly agree with this and as a girl gamer, I like a rounded personality in my lead character, male or female.
 

alittlepepper

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Emily Pritchard said:
Well, I don't know about "the vast majority of women" (as I haven't talked to all of them and I doubt you have, either), I know that I'm not annoyed. It's always awesome when a guy actually takes a stance like this instead of turning into the kind of online gamer who can only slobber out "how big are your tits" before keeling over and dying from the fact that there's a girl in his boy's only club.

You know, the one thing I'd like to see in games that is most likely never to happen? I'd like to see an RPG, where you choose gender/appearance/personality at the startup, that doesn't outline the canon as male. Most of them I've run into, do, from Male Revan all the way to Commander Shepard.

I've always thought the storylines in games like KotOR and Morrowind would be more interesting if Revan and the Nerevarine were female, anyway.
Someone might have beaten me to this, but I believe that the main character from KotOR 2, The Exile, was canonically female.
Wookiepedia link: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Exile

Sorry if I'm reposting something someone already said (and it's totally Off-topic), but I just thought I'd point out that on occasion the main character in an RPG is canonically female. Though I'll admit that it's pretty few and far between.

On topic: I do sometimes get a little bit annoyed at some portrayals, and have developed a pretty cynical attitude towards them in video games (I expect the new GoW character to be completely one-dimensional), but on the good side I am sometimes pleasantly surprised when a strong female character does stumble along. A lot of the characters from Mass Effect...not just Shep...fit into that. (Not all of them, of course.)
What annoys me more is not so much the sexualizing of the character as is the "Hollywood badass action girl type" as Yahtzee put it. Emotionally dead characters (save seething rage and general hate for everything with a pulse) is boring in any character regardless of gender but it seems more annoying to me on a female character. Overcompensating, I suppose.

Caligulove said:
Honestly, Gaming need an Ellen Ripley.

Someone that's flawed and traumatized, yet capable enough to stay alive and get things done, whose sort-of attractive, but nevertheless wears pretty unflattering clothes, and even when she is in her undies... isnt really eye candy- that has motherly characteristics.

Then, from going through hell... is able to rise to the occasion and become more badass than an entire platoon of marines put together- yet doesn't come out of it with a smirk and a one-liner, but by the skin of her teeth. Ultimately someone that everyone can relate to.
Agreed.
 

Vivace-Vivian

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Apr 6, 2010
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I haven't been harassed too much yet but I stay well within Left 4 Dead and Rockband. Perhaps it isn't as bad there. But you're right. We'd be lying if we said media doesn't effect us at all. We do choose how it does, but unfortunately there are many out there who just wont' see the difference between it, and real life.

All we can do is continue to live out our lives, say that yes, we are gamers and not be afraid to speak up while online.
 

DuX1112

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Mar 18, 2010
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Hm.

I think all is not that bad. Why? Because, I think that in all this "objectification" of women or stereotipization of men there is one important parameter missing: POWER.

You see, I have a friend, who's a girl, and a gamer. And yes, she likes Lara Croft very much, thank you. Yes, she sometimes finds useless babes in bikinis distasteful (on TV) - and sometimes she finds them empowering, but I've never heard her complain about the same thing in games. She takes pride in her slender, bettered version of herself in Dragon Age: Origins. (Who doesn't?) My point is: what do you all think, WHY do so MANY girls (and women) sometimes enjoy the "sexy" roles assigned to them by, well, the world in general? Or why do we, men, enjoy our roles of heroic soldiers, commanders, and one-man-armies?

Because it promises POWER. See, they're objectified, but ultimately - who isn't? Aren't males objectified too? One of the things because I never got playing Gears was the stupid, unrealistic, hilarious typification of every single male in that game as a Manbearpiggish thing on steroids - but how MANY guys actually enjoy Gears? MANY, I'd say. Why? Because it fills their need for power. To me, that amount of power was just comically hilarious. Maybe I have a tad bit more self-esteem, maybe I lack it?, I don't know, but that form of "Powerful Me" didn't appeal to me. It felt like a joke, and making fun of guys in general (now I sound exactly like a feminist, but I'm a man, see? So it goes both ways.)

Coming back to girls (referring to both stereotypes and real life): what's the one, ultimate way a girl can win over the heart, the mind, and the body of a potentially brutish, insensitive, selfish guy (or even a normal, sensitive, generous guy)? The only way is to get HIM to want HER. Often times, disregarding the cost. So, the ultimate Power for women stems from their absolute appeal with which they can seduce men, from women's ability to be WANTED; men being, arguably, the most powerful beasts alive (at least physically). But only after women, I'd guess, because they can (mis)use us pretty badly.

And while we do it out of generosity, or the naive need for romantic love, and some silly chivalric ideals (I've been the victim of all those, and still am), some women are doing it, sometimes, from the sole need to dominate over men and feel better about themselves.

I'm gonna go a bit off-topic:

Been burned that way. A girl told me, I quote, "But you're, you're too special, too smart, I just don't enjoy a relationship in which I can't... dominate. I don't feel special when I'm with you, I feel completely ordinary. I want to be with someone I can dominate and feel superior to." Despite the fact that, to me, she was the most perfect female human being alive. I'd bow to her feet, if she would let me. But then again, that too would seem superior to her.

Now before someone rushes to say, "Ha, you must have insulted her or been a stuck-up asshole" or whatever of the sort, I'd like to remind that I was the one liking the girl, in love with the girl, and trying to get to her, etc. And, no, I didn't bother her. We weren't speaeking for months, it was fine with me, and she called me. It appears that her ego needed some food, because eventually she resorted to lying to me, pretending, manipulating me, just so she could feel victorious "over me" (in her words, "NO! You're wrong! I'M RIGHT!"). And guess what, she felt no remorse about lying. And, she confessed to lying and sounded rather proud of it. To her, it was just another way to get her things done - whatever that was. And lying was, is, something that makes me cringe.

/ends rant

So you see, sure, women are generally the "weaker" sex, but men are "corruptible" in the sense that they can rarely muster the power of will to reject, or deny, a beautiful, intelligent, sensual woman. For girls, using their "assets" is like the ultimate mind-control weapon.

So, while many girls object to the objectification (I'd say the more precise term is "focalization" of what makes them powerful), many girls also like it and feel comfortable with it - often, this feels much better if their high heels stomp men's hearts, or something of the sort. And that spells: p-o-w-e-r. If women didn't like objectification so much, guess what, they wouldn't be doing it themselves. But look around on Facebook, or in town, and count the number of girls resorting to "self-objectification". I for one, think that at least 80% of girls are using their potential "sexyness" to increase their appeal to whomever's street they cross (or whoever glances their profile pics).

And we men do it too. Maybe not me so much, but how many boys out there are being intentionally loud, rude, or showing off their stregth (pushing other guys, whatever)? Many of those. If a girl gets hurt by such a guy, she calls him a "jerk", and if a boy gets hurt by a foxy lady who doesn't like him but likes his attention anyways (mildly put), he calls her a "*****".

And the quest for Power, can make each of us a jerk, or a *****.

So about all of this objectification thing - if it exists, it's necessary, and it's there for a reason. As some famous person put it, "Stereotypes exist because they have grounds in reality."

So, I believe, it's only human nature. If we could, we'd have the hottest, most gorgeous girl possible. But we can't, so we project - at least ourselves, as the princes. And girls would have their princes, all right. But they can't, so they project themselves - into beauty queens.

You can't be a girl and not want to feel wanted and beautiful, I guess. You can't be a guy and not want to be the knight in the shining armor, or the heroic super-soldier saving the fates of millions and "earning" his bride. Sure, these yearnings are interchangeable, but empirical data would dictate that girls are more likely to associate with the former, and boys with the latter.

It's a fairytale recycled. And we know that everyone's perfectly perfect in fairy tales, don't we?

And there's nothing wrong with wanting to be perfect. After all, it's one of the goals that make life worth living. The problems start when we imagine we're perfect, instead of acknowledging our gray reality and working on it, painting it.

And it comes full circle - part of that "painting" is us, enjoying our colourful alter-egos in the lush, imaginary worlds of video games.


--------------------------------
P.S. What's a White Knight?

P.P.S. I think that maybe we should discuss about porn entering the gaming industry. Because, after all, objectification is oftentimes porn, and hell - aren't babes in bikinis touching themselves and dancing sensually some kind of soft-core porn / erotica? Which everyone enjoys at some time, though. Girls and Boys. Maybe we should panic about girls in video games in the same way that we panic about girls in porn. Which is like, not panicking at all, because it all comes down to a specific artistic expression, which in turn is - normal.

P.P.P.S. I, for one, would like to see more girls gamers! And no, objectification isn't what's repulsing them. In fact, it may just be the thing to attract the broad masses of girls who can't associate with a game unless it has some pink costumes in it.

P.P.P.P.S. I realize I've over-generalizing, maybe, but that's why I have many "some / sometimes / maybes" in my post after all. So please don't go nitpicking. :) And I apologize for the use of CAPS instead of bold/italics, I'm just not familiar with the formatting commands here (Can anyone point me where to find the rules? Thanks.)

EDIT: I still can't understand why many guys admit they choose to play as female characters in games. Curiosity, sheer boredom, or...?
 

Sixties Spidey

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Jan 24, 2008
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BlueInkAlchemist said:
AngloDoom said:
The parts above are the parts I've seen in every single one of these posts ever since I joined the Escapist. These topics come out once a month or, if the flavour of the week is feminism, a lot more.

The parts in bold are the parts I find patronising to women in general. Women do not need a 'call to arms' and, if I was a woman, I think having someone step in an tell me, basically, 'don't let men bully you', I'd be a little bit insulted.

But hey, I'm a middle-class white-guy, so what do I know?
I won't pretend I'm the first person to say these things, and I'm pretty sure they've been said better by others. But I just get pissed off and feel I need to speak up on behalf of people who have a functioning frontal lobe when I see something like this:

Ironic Warfare, anyone?
 

Kouen

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Mar 23, 2010
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I must admit here that I think that people should remember there is 2 sides to every coin and this stuff in stereotypical fashion occurs for the ladies too.... Leon S Kennedy anyone just to name one, Chisel good looks, deep and feeling at times, athletic ect ect.

Now im all for supporting equality and all that, I've never harassed any Girl online and never will.
 

Locko96

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Jan 18, 2010
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Many people have mentioned 13 year old boys. The reason they look so highly sexualized is because they're are marketing to that demographic; teenage boys and men. Even if there are female gamers, that's the demographic they look to and it just makes easy money.

However, I love Alex Vance. One of my favorite characters in any video game.