Give me a reason to play Dota 2 (EDIT: entire new OP)

[Mirroga]

I always hate the wording of the title like "Give me a reason to..." It just feels like I am trying to justify, if not force, the topic maker to play a game they have no interest in/kind of hate.

Actually, I would go the route of trying LoL first and then playing DotA 2 after you got some experience. DotA 2 has yet to gain some elements of tutorials and it really is hard to start playing especially against much more experienced players. Seriously, the metagame of DotA 2 is very harsh.

 

[JaceArveduin]

Oh, and denying, never understood the reason behind allowing it.

Denying is actually pretty damned important. Denying creeps prevents the enemy hero from getting the gold from the creep, and gives them reduced xp. If you're good enough, you can have a one or two level advantage over the opponent in the LANING phase, which can be massive.

Okay, wrong word choice, my bad. What I should have said is "I don't see why people seem to like denying." I find it boring myself, I'd rather just keep harassing.

 

[RivFader86]

Well the reason i want to play DoTa2 (having played neither DoTa nor LoL for an extended time) is that a game with a steep learning curve usually has a bigger payoff at it's "peak" than a game that is easy to get in to.

But i get where you comming from or as TB said in some video

"Why would i want to play game xxx when i have learned to play LoL why should i go through the learning process all over again when i learned LoL"

(well he didn't say that word for word but something along those lines...i guess you get the point though)

To be fair, though, coming from TB it's kind of meaningless.

I mean, if the games had been reversed; i.e. Dota 2 by Riot and LoL by Valve; TB would be lamenting about how shit LoL is and saying things like, "Why would anyone stick with LoL when Dota 2 is so much better."

The man has a colossal stick up his ass when it comes to Valve. He just loves to hate them. It's like he feeds on the hatred, as if he needs it to survive.

Really? Never noticed it...anyway the arguement is still valid though people will think twice about it because both games do have a steep learning curve and are a few differences aside very similar games (that goes people that want to play it "serious" obviously people like me who just want to play around will atleast check it out).

 

[Rednog]

Look up what pay to win is, arguing that League is in any way pay 2 win is absolute nonsense. There are no flat out advantages you can buy over another play. Runes are only bought with points that you get for playing the game, you can't buy them with money. And even most people have full runes pages, so I don't see where there is this mythical pay 2 win/cash shop you constantly decry LoL for having.

I've always said LoL rides that weird line between acceptable and P2W. Obviously it's nothing compared to some other games, but having to pay for heros is a big thing. Balance in LoL isn't terrible, but there are still some imbalanced heros. Someone who has access to the majority of the roster has a clear advantage over someone who does not.

Once again I have to ask how is it an advantage for people to have more champs? If you're playing normal you can't see the other team's champions until both teams have been completely locked in. So you're not at a disadvantage of getting counter picked by anyone. In order to play ranked you need to have unlocked at least 16 champions (not including the weekly free ones). Even then who needs the full roster to play the game? With League hitting over 100 champs like 2 months ago, I highly doubt anyone is actually proficient in more than a handful of champions. People tend to stick with champions they know, because League Champions are highly reliant on skills and if you don't know the intricacy of the skills you're probably going to fail hard with the champ. Personally I've played league for about 8 months, and when I go into ranked games I have a roster of about 10 champs that I know hands down, and I really wouldn't deviate from them because if I picked anything else I wouldn't preform as well. The basic point is that just because you have a champ doesn't mean you will know how to play it.

By your logic one could argue that any game where you don't have full and immediate access to everything and the ability to unlock an item that isn't available is pay2win. Hell that would apply to something like TF2. There are some far better items than the basic set and even in something like MvM some items are kind of required for a class to work well. But no one would argue that TF2 is pay to win.

Rant about no mana burn or good disables...yea might want to check out those champ abilites again...there are an insane amount of diverse abilities/disables. Oh so what there is no mana burn, considering a heafty chunk of the champs in leauge don't have mana I'd hate to be rolling a champ with mana burn.

Well, DOTA heros have more diversity. I'm not going to go through the entire roster of both games here, just check for yourself.

I'll admit that the lack of mana burn abilities and the presence of non-mana reliant heros in LoL is more of a personal gripe than anything else.

I personally don't think either game has any objective standard in which you can say oh yes the heroes are objectively diverse because of reasons X,Y,Z. I think that they're both pretty diverse. But like you said going through 2 rosters of about 200 heroes is an argument for another day.

Then some rant about blink? Yea there is no "blink" ability in league. Though an item with blink in it that has an obscenely short cooldown does come to mind...it's in DOTA though...

An item that costs 2150 gold with a 3 second cooldown when you take any sort of damage, costs 75 mana, and has a 10+ second cooldown after use, and you compare it to an ability which you start the game with.

Once again, Flash is a summoner spell a player chooses out of a pool of 13 spells in the classic mode. And it is on a cooldown of 265 seconds, that is by no means a "short cooldown" that you accuse it to be, unless almost 5 minutes to you is a short cooldown. Hell I'd argue that it is a decently long cooldown considering LoL games tend to be on the shorter end when compared to other traditional MOBA games.
And even then, Riot's approach to champions since season 2 started way back in November has been to unleash more and more maneuverable champs because they like the play style of having people moving around or even being able to chase after players who have flashed because to them it makes for more interesting plays. It's a style thing at the end of the day. I play DOTA every once and a while and I know that if I ward I'm going to be absolutely safe beyond a shadow of a doubt. In League with champs that can jump walls and have other dashes, jumps, pulls, etc you really are a lot less safe. If Riot suddenly took out flash completely there would be an obscene amount of champs that would just completely outclass the others instantly. Riot wants more of a dynamic game and having flash in your back pocket allows you to play more aggressively early on instead of having a prolonged farm phase.

I'm sorry but have you honestly ever played more than a few matches of League of Legends...because the way you rant about it sounds like you've played very little if any of league at all.

Not knowing what I'm talking about. Speaks for itself.

I must have touched a nerve.

I still stand by the accusation, because even most newbies know flash by its name and that it has a relatively long cooldown.
You levy very, I don't know the right word...innocuous?, arguments against LoL as some sort of damning evidence why DOTA2 is objectively better...yet a lot of it is more personal problems.

 

[NSGrendel]

I spent a lot of hours playing LoL, but had to quit as I don't like spending 30 minutes with up to 4 douchebags who want to lecture you on how you should play "their" game.

DoTA II has one thing going for it, it doesn't have LoL's userbase of abusive 10 year olds. Yet.

I'd agree that the game is obtuse and has a lot of counter-intuitive mechanics, but it's still in beta.

 

[Aethren]

Being an avid player of HoN, I find LoL to be far too slow and easy, and Dota2 to be too slow and cumbersome to get into.

 

[Simskiller]

At "top tier" level the games really don't matter that much anyway, because good players challenge each other, you don't need the actual game to be a challenge in itself.

Look Midge, I really don't mean to offend or flame you here, but I have to say it: that is the most stupid thing I have read all week.

This is not only coming from someone who's a bit of a DOTA 2 fanboy, but also from someone who knows his fair share about competitive play (be that in esports or "real" sports). My opinion isn't the end all be all on this stuff but I know enough to say, with confidence, that that argument is a load of tripe.

Looks like someone got killed by a karthus ult :3 (Not sure if you have played LoL before)

Call me when an enemy hero kills you - with your own ult

I immeditly thought of Rubick Dooming Doombringer.

Captcha: Yes, sir

See! Even captcha agrees with me.

 

[Thatrocketeer]

Because no heroes are truly "overpowered" when they're released, Huskar, Viper and Ursa are the only three overpowered pieces of shit in the game.

If Huskar, Viper and Ursa are overpowered, what does that make Lycan or Dark Seer? (They're not, by the way. Just kite the shit out of Ursa, easy to deal with, Huskar and Viper are simular.)

Oh yeah, forgot about Rapethrope. Dark Seer isn't OP, he requires skill. Ursa has his "blink in and deal 400000 damage in a split second", while Viper does more damage the more dead you are, and Huskar has his OP half-health button, and gets stronger the more he's dead.

They're not OP. In pubs they might seem to be OP, but any team with proper coordination or any team with a reliable burst damage/disable could easily kill them, since Ursa and Viper are squishy as hell and Huskar needs his life to be low to pump out some damage. Also, Ursa and Huskar pubbers tend to be cocky and overextend A LOT so there's that as well.

 

[Rad Party God]

Aside from both games being troll magnets?, well, both are free... what other reason do you need? and why do you need other people to decide for you if you'll like it or not?, just play the damn thing, it's not like you're losing anything.

 

[sirtommygunn]

2) Your views on rune pages, hero/champion unlocking and customization in general are strange to put it kindly. LoL really does ride the fine line between pay2win and acceptable cash shop. Champions having to be unlocked is alright, I guess - after all, theres more than one champion that can fill a specific role. The thing is this practically makes nerfing shit into the ground an absolute necessity. Imagine Riot brought out a support champion that can disable an entire team in an instant for 5 seconds, while other cheaper champions only have a tiny one target, 3 second stun up their sleeve. Suddenly it's become pay2win.

It isn't pay2win unless there's something that can only be bought with real currency that gives an advantage. Also, all ranked matches in LoL give three champion bans to each team, so a champion that was that overpowered would never get to be used in a match that mattered.

Anyway, so champion unlocking rides the fine line. Rune pages take the fine line and leap over it. You can outright buy health, regen and AP, which is fucking bullshit. I don't think I need to explain why. Excusing it by saying it overs customization? Why not make rune pages and runes completely free right off the bat? Best of both worlds. Oh, sure, Riot might loose a little profit, but that still doesn't make the mechanic any better. Understandable, but still a good reason to not play LoL.

You can't buy runes with currency, although they really should just be available right from the start.

LoL approaches balance differently. Riots balancing plan seems to consist of nerfing everything they can every 2 months, until one day, you join a game only to realize all weapons have been replaced with foam. Mana burn and good disables are left out completely, because they are "anti-fun". That's a kind way of saying "The more casual people in our audience can't handle these abilities and would get slaughtered when confronted with them because they refuse to learn counter picking, map knowledge and cannot into situational awareness".

Act more elitist please. But seriously, judging by your later comments this is just you crying over how you can't get kills without a 5 second disable from halfway across the map.

On top of that LoL offers free "out of jail" cards, like blink. Sorry, I can't deal with that. So this guy I just outplayed is going to get away because every player on the map gets a free you-suck-but-oh-well-so-here-just-escape ability with a low cooldown? Fucking seriously?

If you're not good enough to take a short distance movement spell into account (that you are also allowed to use to catch up to them by the way) then maybe you're just bad at the game.

LoL's main problem is how low the skillcap is when compared to DOTA and HoN. As a result, it's more forgiving and easier for the first 10 games maybe. Nevertheless, getting into any MOBA title is a daunting experience, so why someone would just refuse to hold out for 10 more games when it means they will have more fun later is beyond me. I have even more things to write but I have to go now. If anyone disagrees I'm open to a discussion, and I'd elaborate on my points.

Says the skillcap is lower, complains about how he isn't good enough to get kills.

But if you're one of those guys that just can't stomach moving away from a game you invested time in, please do stay with LoL. You will just fail to adapt and suck and rage while your team rages at you and it'll all end in tears. Seen it way too often.

Replace LoL with Dota2 and you have your post in a nutshell.

 

[DANEgerous]

It is absurdly complex and likely going to eat half of the LoL players currently on LoL. I do not think it (or anything else) is going to kill LoL but Dota2 will be Coke while LoL turns into Pepsi.

Though i do not get how LoL is casual to me that point is rather nonsense, while both game have fairly different mechanics one hardly feels objectively more skill driven but back to the whole Coke vs Pepsi thing Dota2 will have to be far worse then LoL it is what made this kind of game exist at all and now has the backing of a company with million of rabid fans that are in fact so rabid of Valve and Dota2 it has a close to pera spot as #2 on the most played game on steam and it is not out of Beta which is like a movie opening in 2013 winning an Oscar this year yet this does not mean LoL will not have die hard fans that hate Dota2 it just means Dota2 will ultimately be the most played game

 

[Vigormortis]

It seems to me you went into playing Dota 2 wanting to find things to hate about it. I mean, you felt like passing judgement on the game in it's entirety based on one bot match. That doesn't really seem fair or even logical.

It wasn't a bot match. It was PvP. You're putting words in my mouth that never came out of it. Please don't. It only makes me think less of you.

And no, I was not looking for things to hate about it. I wanted to like Dota 2, but it wouldn't let me.

I'm not entirely sure you could possibly think less of..well..anyone at this point. Your general tone towards anyone that actually tries to answer your question is negativity and passively-aggressive insults.

I didn't put words in your mouth. You said, and I quote, "...especially since the difficulty options outright lie. It should be more along the lines of 'Normal mode: I have played DotA: Allstars.' " This gives one the impression you played against bots. Perhaps not a practice lobby, but rather a co-op bot match, but still against bots. PvP matches don't have difficulty tiers.

Furthermore, I have to ask: "The game wouldn't let you" think it's fun? How does that make sense? The game is just a game. Unless it's actively broken, thus hindering your involvement with it, it's not "not letting you" do anything.

Again, it seems more and more you went in wanting to find reasons to hate it. You claim you wanted to like it, but from the word go you were defeatist in those attempts.

Unless this thread was started with the sole intent of flame-baiting (which I'm inclined to think it wasn't), you obviously wanted to reach out to the community for help in finding out what there is to like about Dota 2. Many of us have responded with a plethora of reasons. Some more aggressively than others, unfortunately. However, regardless of tone, you're responses have been either dismissive or confrontational.

So tell me now, here, "straight-up". Do you actually want to know why we like playing Dota 2 and why it could be worth your time to learn how to play?

If you do, then we can continue the discussion. Either in thread or in private. I can try explaining to you why exactly I like the game, even though I was never really a fan of the genre or player-base before.

If not, then drop the charade and ask a moderator to lock the thread. There's no point to the discussion if it's only going to lead to arguing and fighting.

 

[Ziggy]

Not what I meant. To buy items at base (without even getting into the badly-explained 'courier' system), you have to right click them. There is no other way of buying items. This is never explained anywhere in-game. Not even in a tooltip. This is not an action that common sense would dictate randomly testing. I was not talking about what the items do.

Besides, everyone who's ever played a game against bots in any MOBA knows that MOBA bots are bad and get you into bad habits.

So you have a habit from League of Legends and you're calling that a bad point for DotA two because you couldn't figure out to click the other mouse button?
You must be joking.

My point about your lack of knowledge about the game is all summed up in your last sentence.

Besides, everyone who's ever played a game against bots in any MOBA knows that MOBA bots are bad and get you into bad habits.

In League of Legends this maybe true, DotA bots are completely the opposite.

Dota bots.

- Roam to gank
- Call missing heroes.
- Do not have predictable points where they stand when in danger/low hp.
- Buy hero relevant items.
- Do Roshan (Baron)
- Call what they intend to do (pushing towers, raxes)
- Teleport back to defend
- Respond to pings on the map.
- They leave you a lane to start in, if you choose a different one an allied bot will leave to go to the other.

The Dota bots are actually good to learn against for beginners, Valve has been putting in a tonne of work into making them not retarded.

You can still pull of some shit like in early game where you can force them away from the lane by simpely going closer to them.
But they are beasts at denying creeps.

 

[Lyri]

Because no heroes are truly "overpowered" when they're released, Huskar, Viper and Ursa are the only three overpowered pieces of shit in the game.

...
No, just no.

None of those heroes are even remotely used in competative play and do you know why? Because they're terribly easy to shut down.

Huskar: Dies to burst damage and stuns.
Viper: Easy to gank early game, is outclassed by other carries.
Ursa: Force staff, ghost scepter render his ability to burst you down useless.

Yeah, well, nah dude. Dark Seer is OP as fuck. His wall being the main reason. Yesterday I played a game against a team that wasn't half bad, 3 on mine had at least 7 deaths within the first 20 minutes. Our SK finished Armlet at 35 minutes. And you know what? We won. Why? Because I was playing Dark Seer.
His wall made him OP before the recent nerf, but DS has always been an incredibly strong turtle hero. He really specializes in just holding the fort and being a pain in the ass wherever he is.
Definitely worthy of top tier picking atm

Yes, he requires more skill than the average hero, but that doesn't make him balanced. Theres a reason he's typically one of the first bans in competitive play, along with Enigma and Naga Siren. (Also those 3 heros have crazy sinergy, but DS was always a popular ban target, even before Naga was patched in.)
Woah woah woah, he isn't OP by a long shot but a great hero to have in the team because he can go anywhere on the map and be successful.

Anyway, Huskar, Viper and Ursa.

Huskar; any hero with big burst damage hurts Huskar greatly. Either he can't afford to stay because he's got so little life, or he's got little life because he just ultied. That's how you tie him down. After that, Lion can burst him down, Necrolyte can ult him, TA can refract and meld the fuck out of him, you get the idea. If he's already ridiculously fed with a BKB and what not doing 100000000 damage per second, a blademail is good. Also, Euls.
Yep, this is correct. Huskars greatest weakness is his ult, he has to sacrifice a huge chunk of his HP to do the same to you. As soon as he uses it you stun him or you burst him and he drops like a rock.
Lion/Lina/Necro are all great counter picks if you're worried about him.

Viper; Lycan for a start, since he can't be slowed in his ult form. (Provided you can survive in your jungle.) Lifestealer, maybe (?), since he has a built in BKB. If he's mid, any ranged hero can hurt him, provided you can get your lane under control. Once you get the high ground he has a problem, early on anyway.
He suffers the same problems as shadowfiend in that he's a ranged hero with no hard CC and no escape mechanism. Ganking him early on in the middle lane will allow your mid hero to get more exp and gold whilst he's out of lane and Viper will ultimately lose the lane from falling behind.

Ursa; Honestly, any disable. Wards on Rosh at all times, obviously. Any slows or stuns worth their salt can completely shut Ursa down. Any heros with escape mechanisms. He's the biggest pubstomper in the game. I saw Ursa a lot early on, I got owned by him a lot early on, but now that I'm playing against people with more than 100 wins, you almost never see him, simply because everyone knows how to counter him.

Also, two BIG items against Ursa. 1) Ghost Scepter. Self explanatory. 2) Blademail. Also self explanatory.

Other good items - Forcestaff. If he can't get near you, he can't do damage. Euls or Rod on int heros, Heaven's Halberd on str. (Or even on semi or hard carries than could do with some extra life.)
Unless you're a hero with a huge hp pool, ignore blademail as he's likely to burst you down anyway and you won't use it effectively. Stick to escape items for messing with Ursa like a force staff or Euls.
BKB also goes without saying so his team can't stun you and let him rip on you.

Also, this goes without saying, but denying, harrassing and ganking in the early phases of the game will hit these heros hard, as they will almost any.

Btw Lyri, if you read this, feel free to correct me if I got anything wrong. This is how I deal with these heros and I can't remember the last time Huskar, Viper or Ursa gave me any problems. But you are a lot better than me, so maybe you have something to add.
Pretty spot on

Aaand for my last point before I get back to watching Castle.

Once again, Flash is a summoner spell a player chooses out of a pool of 13 spells in the classic mode. And it is on a cooldown of 265 seconds, that is by no means a "short cooldown" that you accuse it to be, unless almost 5 minutes to you is a short cooldown. Hell I'd argue that it is a decently long cooldown considering LoL games tend to be on the shorter end when compared to other traditional MOBA games.
And even then, Riot's approach to champions since season 2 started way back in November has been to unleash more and more maneuverable champs because they like the play style of having people moving around or even being able to chase after players who have flashed because to them it makes for more interesting plays. It's a style thing at the end of the day. I play DOTA every once and a while and I know that if I ward I'm going to be absolutely safe beyond a shadow of a doubt. In League with champs that can jump walls and have other dashes, jumps, pulls, etc you really are a lot less safe. If Riot suddenly took out flash completely there would be an obscene amount of champs that would just completely outclass the others instantly. Riot wants more of a dynamic game and having flash in your back pocket allows you to play more aggressively early on instead of having a prolonged farm phase.

No, no, no, no, no.

Flash is a fucking cancer on League of Legends.
Without a doubt the most borderline bullshit ability within the game itself by giving heroes the chance to be ten times more effective than their design would otherwise allow them to be.
Case in point; ganking Ezreal who has flash off CD is a nightmare since he can do it twice in a row.
Flash is an ability that people shouldn't have at all as a summoner spell.

First and foremost it's the best pick out of all of them, if you were to tier all the summoner spells it would look something like this.

Flash Tier
Not Flash Tier

Btw that Queen song is super relevant right now, Flash is the saviour of the universe and it does save every one of us.
Flash allows people to be incredibly, incredibly sloppy with their play. I'm farming too far ahead of my fallen tier 1 tower as Miss Fortune and suddenly Xin Zhao out of nowhere from the brush.
Nice gap closer loser, flash away and live to fight another day. By rights that should have been a kill, I should have been punished for being in a place I shouldn't be but the mentality is "It's ok I have flash" so I can play super passively and safely until it's off CD and then go back to being sloppy again.

It also gives people double jumps if they really need it, Akali with flash? You're not getting away from her, especially if she has an inbuilt slow on her.
She could also use her flash to escape, a hero with a gap closer suddenly has much more diversity and options than they did before.
All I have to know is where creep camps are and I can drop a ward over the wall and use my gap closer to a mob and done, my gank from which I over commited I'm suddenly free and home because I gap closed a minion and flashed over a wall.
You have no chance of following me here, not even if you have flash.

The only counter to Flash?
Flash.

If you have Flash you know you have a get out of jail free card that will allow you to make hyper aggressive plays when you have it in your back pocket.
It allows you to correct the flaws in your play with a single button press and not reap the consequences.

It should not be something you can select at the start of a match.

You can still pull of some shit like in early game where you can force them away from the lane by simpely going closer to them.
But they are beasts at denying creeps.

It depends on who you are, new heroes added the bots tend not to react to you at all and will favour moving away.
It also depends on how itemized you are compared to them and level advantage, etc etc. So yes, you're not wrong.

The denying thing is something from way back when bots used to have godly reaction times, they would gank you like crazy and take every last hit and deny perfectly.
My first bot match was against a Tiny/Tidehunter lane, the amount of kills they got on me was utterly ridiculous. As soon as you're in range, they unload everything on you. It was rather overwhelming to lose so hard to bots.
Glad they toned it down a bit.

Though i do not get how LoL is casual to me that point is rather nonsense

The basic gist of the arguement is that it has a

- Lower entry level
- Lower skill cap
- Pay to win

Personally to me having experienced both, there is no reason why bot games can't exist together but I do feel like the criticism of League is justified in saying that it is a more casual friendly game.
It definitely doesn't require the knowledge that DotA does.

Edit: Ok ok, going to watch Castle now.

 

[NerfedFalcon]

I didn't put words in your mouth. You said, and I quote, "...especially since the difficulty options outright lie. It should be more along the lines of 'Normal mode: I have played DotA: Allstars.' " This gives one the impression you played against bots. Perhaps not a practice lobby, but rather a co-op bot match, but still against bots. PvP matches don't have difficulty tiers.

When you first boot up the game, it asks what your experience with the genre is. I'm saying it should be what your experience with DotA: Allstars is. Don't you remember that one?

No, of course not, you'd rather take the version that allows you to be more condescending to the guy who disagrees with your opinion and is therefore a casual retard.

 

[dangitall]

I played both games and all I can say is:

LoL:
Pros: Better user interface, less steep learning curve, more fun if you are playing casually.
Cons: Too less hero (oops I meant champion) variety, items are generally homogenous, in-game character strength mostly depends on farm/stats/runes

DotA 2:
Pros: More creative hero design and interesting items, in-game strength depends more on item/ability counters, more fun if you are dedicated and know what you are doing.
Cons: Hotkeys are hard to find sometimes, steeper learning curve.