Give me a reason to play Dota 2 (EDIT: entire new OP)

[Vigormortis]

I didn't put words in your mouth. You said, and I quote, "...especially since the difficulty options outright lie. It should be more along the lines of 'Normal mode: I have played DotA: Allstars.' " This gives one the impression you played against bots. Perhaps not a practice lobby, but rather a co-op bot match, but still against bots. PvP matches don't have difficulty tiers.

When you first boot up the game, it asks what your experience with the genre is. I'm saying it should be what your experience with DotA: Allstars is. Don't you remember that one?

No, of course not, you'd rather take the version that allows you to be more condescending to the guy who disagrees with your opinion and is therefore a casual retard.

And your true motives are revealed. Not once was I condescending. YOU have been the only one becoming hostile. There's absolutely no call for that.

Did I ever once call you a "casual retard"? Did I even once say anything remotely close to that comment?

No. I didn't. Now who's putting words in others mouths?

I distinctly remember the first time I booted up Dota 2. No where did it ask me what my experience with the genre was. I have to wonder, do you actually remember your first time booting it up?

In fact, I'm starting to wonder if you've even played the game. More and more this seems like a pure flame-bait thread. You're only intentions seem to be to anger and insult anyone who doesn't tell you what you already think.

Either way, I'm done. I'm not going to waste my time trying to talk calmly and rationally with someone who clearly has no intention on doing the same.

This has enlightened me, however, onto the types of people that play League of Legends. If the average player is this needlessly hostile over something they asked about, then I'm glad I'm steering clear of that game.

Good day to you, sir.

 

[blazearmoru]

A friend of mine got me a beta key for the game because he thinks that I'm a casual cancer for still playing LoL, even though Dota 2 still isn't out of 'open' beta. So I eventually managed to get a game (seriously, the accept/decline thing is something that should be erased from existence in every universe) and from what I could tell, it was basically LoL except much, much more obtuse. It doesn't have a learning curve so much as a learning brick wall that starts from the instant you boot up the game - especially since the difficulty options outright lie. It should be more along the lines of 'Normal mode: I have played DotA: Allstars.'

Nobody thinks that I Wanna Be The Guy is a well-designed game for anything except making LP'ers cry. Why does Dota 2 get away with stuff like only having one way to do everything and no hints as to what that way is? That was everything I gleaned from one game, and based solely on that, I don't think it's worth my time to try again. First impressions last, after all.

But in the interest of being fair to a game that's still in 'beta', please give me one good reason (no, 'it's better than LoL because I say so' is not a good reason) to give it a second chance.

Edit: Somehow, all of you missed the point of this thread. Instead of making me want to play the game, now that I know that the community is worse than Xbox Live, I only hate it more. Great job.

Edit 2: I did not go into Dota 2 expecting to hate it. I wanted to like the game, and I would have liked it more if not for some incredibly baffling design decisions which make it seem less like a sequel and more like just a graphical upgrade.

Well, I played both LoL and DotA so I can try to explain some things to you... Let's begin!

"Nobody thinks that I Wanna Be The Guy is a well-designed game for anything except making LP'ers cry. Why does Dota 2 get away with stuff like only having one way to do everything and no hints as to what that way is? That was everything I gleaned from one game, and based solely on that, I don't think it's worth my time to try again. First impressions last, after all." complete and utter bullshit. Now I will explain to a person who cannot fathom a game where builds do not revolve around direct hp changes (ap, ad, crit, hp, armor etc). That's right! DotA items have effects! :O Wut are effects you ask? You see that guy over there killing everyone in 1 hit and you have no viable option to contest him? Why do it the LoL way when in DotA you can use your brain? =D Rax, sheep, euls, refresher etc.

"Edit 2: I did not go into Dota 2 expecting to hate it. I wanted to like the game, and I would have liked it more if not for some incredibly baffling design decisions which make it seem less like a sequel and more like just a graphical upgrade." Dota 2 is a game based almost entirely on teamwork and strategy. If you're looking for a movie, try the theaters.

Do I sound mean? I'm sorry. Maybe before lying, you should think. Break down both games, sorry but DotA rewards creativity, strategics, teamplay, sacrifice, and all the good stuff that requires critical thinking. LoL requires the copying of builds to do more dps. If you wana get away with lying, you're talking to the wrong community. We're just pointing out bullshit. You don't like people revealing bullshit, we don't like liars.

And now finally here are the damn reasons if you are sincere cus I have a really damn hard time believing it since you're lying.

1. Tired of the 1top, 1jungle, 1 mid, 2 bot lane? Try being unique and getting FUCKING REWARDED for it. How unique? YOU DECIDE. How's that for "Why does Dota 2 get away with stuff like only having one way to do everything and no hints as to what that way is?"

2. Tired of being countered and not being able to do anything in your lane? Try 1. Harass, 2. Deny. 3. Buy a TP scroll and change lanes. 4. CUT THE DAMN TREES and gank with your jungle. Did I mention rewarded for creative plays? Not being stuck and fucked all game long cus you got countered? is your mind blown yet? If not then let's move to #3!!!

3. Oh god, the enemy team is godlike! It's totally impossible now! Even with every hero in DotA being completely fucking OP like 4 seconds of aoe stuns, refresher makes 8. Like 5 second map silences. Wait a second. You mean you can turn impossible games around in DotA 2? Booya! Creative plays!

4. You see that godlike person over there killing all the things? He got supported. You see that support over there? That person is the foundation of the godlike running around killing your whole team. Supports have a job this game? Mind blown yet?



Srsly, games have one and only one common theme, which is interaction. What is interaction? Generally choices though there are rare outliers such as league of everything's the same. What is dota? A game revolving around choices, limited to only how creative you are. That's it. A game about you, YES YOU, being able to make a difference. Mind blown yet? No? Oh right, LoL rewards you for NOT using your mind. Wana do something different? Get punished! Tro league of legends. :|

I'd show you the ropes if you wana give it another shot but you really goto stop with this lying shit. There's a clear line between bias and bullshit. You cross that line, NO COMMUNITY FROM ANYWHERE is gona let that shit just fly. Get your ass on DotA and add me, If you're interested I don't just let noobs hang. Oh btw, I hope you chose the lowest difficulty or you're gona get beat way back down to your elo.

 

[NerfedFalcon]

I'd show you the ropes if you wana give it another shot but you really goto stop with this lying shit. There's a clear line between bias and bullshit. You cross that line, NO COMMUNITY FROM ANYWHERE is gona let that shit just fly. Get your ass on DotA and add me, If you're interested I don't just let noobs hang. Oh btw, I hope you chose the lowest difficulty or you're gona get beat way back down to your elo.

Unfortunately, when you said this, it turned me right off every other little piece of over-aggressive advertising that was almost getting me interested. Here's the thing - EVE Online advertised itself as having infinite choice, but that's only after grinding for many hours to get your 'elite pilot's license' before you get any of the good stuff. Dota 2, from what I can tell, is the same way only with nothing as official as League has. You don't get to experiment until you already know what to do in general, and that takes hours and hours.

Especially since there's no way to change the difficulty option, and if you'd bothered to read the entire post, you'll know that it gave me the impression (until I started playing it anyway) that my experience with the genre WOULDN'T be useless, so I picked 'average'. Like I said, since I can't change it, that basically means that the Elite Pilot's License training is going to be outright painful rather than just grind.

Like everyone else in this thread, you've turned me off the game a lot more than you've turned me on. You almost had it, but...Look, I'm all for games being more difficult, but there's a fine line between difficult and bullshit, and based on what you've told me, DotA is on the wrong side of the line.

 

[Dandark]

It seems like that to me too. Hence the aggressive tone.

Nah, you usually have an aggressive tone on this forum. That's fine. But you were criticizing another game in a thread meant for arguments in favor of DOTA2. Doin it wrong, is what I'm saying.

Well, I mentioned things DOTA 2 does better than LoL. I realize that's criticizing LoL, but how on earth am I meant to answer to the questions the OP asked without criticizing LoL at the same time? DOTA 2's personal triumphs are also LoL's failures, and vice versa. It's impossible to give a reason to play one over the other without criticizing one of them.

Case in point that remark about the guides, a good way to get into DotA is reading a guide. All I'm getting from you right now is "I want this game to let me in without the work", if that is your desire then continue to play League because DotA isn't for you at all.

Okay. Fine. What I meant was character guides - every single guide I've read on places like Mobafire or Solomid was for a specific character and assumed that you were at the level cap. In my experience, and now I'll admit it's limited, guides aren't written for noobs. What noobs get is a kiss on the lips and a boot in the ass out into the wild, and they have to either get lucky with their initial guesswork; have a friend help them out; or get destroyed, get demoralised and never touch the genre again.

http://www.playdota.com/guides/welcome-to-dota-you-suck[/quote]

I remember reading this guide when I started to try play DOTA. From what I remember I already knew most of what it was talking about from playing LoL, things such as farming and towers and lanes. I didn't find it too useful except for the recommended beginner champs.

I was planning to just wait untill they released a tutorial since I couldn't be bothered to play it on my own and get used to the terrible interface(That ****ing shop!) but im tempted now to give it another go.
I played with a friend who was also new and two friends who were actually good at the game, one of them even being invited to be on a pro team or something. We did a tri lane in PvP and I was crystal maiden. It took me half the game to figure out I needed to right click to buy and I couldn't get used to not smartcasting but it was still kinda fun.


OT: I preferred LoL to DOTA but it seems to have some advantages such as being able to pick any champion. I play LoL mostly and my biggest challenge was getting used to the terrible interface, something I gave up on but may try to learn again. If we can get past the bad interface and learn what items to buy, or how to browse that awful shop then I could see it being pretty fun.
It's just really hard to try and learn it when I already know how to play LoL and enjoy that.

 

[Sight Unseen]

Try playing some bot matches with a friend who can help walk you through it. the bots are a lot more forgiving than players can be and I've actually won many games playing with a friend of mine who was completely new to the game.

Dota 2 can be pretty unforgiving, but it is not impossible, and there is a ton of variety to the items and character builds you can end up having. And it's not true that you can't recover from an early mistake. I've personally been in games where we were down so badly that we were down to only one barracks left ( if all the barracks are destroyed then the mega creeps spawn and its pretty much a guaranteed GG) and the other team still had their second tier towers intact, and we came back and won it. So its definitely not impossible to recover from one early death.

Just give the game some time and if you have a friend to play with and help you out, even better.

I've never played LoL myself so I dont know how it compares to Dota, but I came into Dota as my first major MOBA game and after a week or two of playing I got to the point where we could win games more often than not, and I feel like I'm pretty decent at the game now, with certain characters.

 

[NerfedFalcon]

Try playing some bot matches with a friend who can help walk you through it.

Therein lies my problem. (Edit: Well, one of many, but.) Trying to relearn the alphabet is hard enough - the only other friend I have who plays the game (the one who got my beta key) would probably refuse to help if I asked.

 

[Sight Unseen]

Just out of curiosity, who did you play in your (presumably only) game of Dota? Because certain heroes are much harder to learn than others ( *cough* invoker *cough*) Some good heroes to start with from my experience are the Skeleton King and the Sniper. Also the game does a pretty good job of recommending items for your character. When I start with a new character I almost always use the recommended items for it, and start mixing and matching as the situation requires only once I have a firm grasp of the character.


You are right though, this game takes a lot of practice.I have nearly 300 hours played into it by now and I'm proficient with maybe only 10-15 of the games 80+ characters, and I still don't know what all the other character's moves do yet exactly. You have to be patient and give it some more games.

EDIT: You also might be better off playing a support type character until you get the ropes since they tend to rely a lot less on becoming super farmed early on, and their abilities can still be useful to the whole team even if you are underleveled. My GF swears by the Crystal Maiden (although she's pretty fragile and has low attack damage) and the Vengeful Spirit, and the Lion.

 

[Dandark]

I do have something to ask about denying though. What about it adds more "depth" to laning?

Yeah you can deny your enemies creeps so they don't get as much gold or xp but the thing is you can do that in LoL too, just differently. In DOTA you just attack the creep and kill it before the enemy does. In LoL though you have to stop the enemy from doing that. You have to either zone them away untill it's killed by your minions or just harass them as they last hit so that they have to make a choice between last hitting and taking damage.

The LoL one sounds better to me but maybe that's just because im used to it. Does the ability to kill your creeps really add that much more to it?

 

[yaydod]

I do have something to ask about denying though. What about it adds more "depth" to laning?

Yeah you can deny your enemies creeps so they don't get as much gold or xp but the thing is you can do that in LoL too, just differently. In DOTA you just attack the creep and kill it before the enemy does. In LoL though you have to stop the enemy from doing that. You have to either zone them away untill it's killed by your minions or just harass them as they last hit so that they have to make a choice between last hitting and taking damage.

The LoL one sounds better to me but maybe that's just because im used to it. Does the ability to kill your creeps really add that much more to it?

Well thing is, you can do the zoning + deny in DotA2, so double benefit.
The denying mechanic is used to get a level/gold advantage over your opponents and to control the position in your lane (to stay closer to your tower). In LoL the problem with the zoning is that it is relatively easy to stay at least i XP range, so you might get a gold advantage but you wont out level him.

Second "subtle" denying method is using the jungle. In DotA you can "pull" the jungle creeps into your lane so that your creeps will go attack the jungle ones.
The advantage of this method is that if your creep waves are near the enemies tower, you are holding back the next wave and so you are able to get closer to your safe zone.
Also one thing to know is that the jungle creeps do not reset and you can stack them (having several groups in the same area) if you "pull" them out of their camp at the right moment.

In LoL this is not possible (not a bad thing), but I really find it annoying that the jungle creeps reset them selfs (i hate you reseting blue buff ).


So yeah denying IMO adds some strategic depth and gives the support some thing to do during the laning phase other than scratching them selfs and maybe, maaaaaybe use a spell. wow

OT: I think you should give it another chance and especially play with people you know, avoid going alone in the murky but magnificent waters of DotA2.
And if you are willing read this guide, you cannot go there unprepared.

http://www.playdota.com/guides/welcome-to-dota-you-suck

This is a bit of topic but i find it hilarious when people say that HoN is TEN MILLIONS TIMES BETTAR than DotA 2 (even DotA1) since all they really did was ctrl+C ctrl+V DotA1, sold the game, created a horrible mutation of a community, then went F2P with LoL models (not a bad one) which is very inappropriate with all the counter picking there is in the DotA philosophy.

 

[Sunrider]

Try playing some bot matches with a friend who can help walk you through it.

Therein lies my problem. (Edit: Well, one of many, but.) Trying to relearn the alphabet is hard enough - the only other friend I have who plays the game (the one who got my beta key) would probably refuse to help if I asked.

I'd be more than happy to play a game or two against bots and give you whatever pointers you'd need. I'm nowhere near a pro in terms of skills, but I know enough about the game to consider myself knowledgeable. I follow the pro scene closely, watching as many games as I can, more or less every day.
I've played a couple of hundred games of LoL too, so I could probably give you at least some parallels to make some things easier to explain.
Hit me up with a private message if you're interested, and we'll give it a try. Let's go at it with a blank slate. =)

 

[NerfedFalcon]

Just out of curiosity, who did you play in your (presumably only) game of Dota? Because certain heroes are much harder to learn than others ( *cough* invoker *cough*) Some good heroes to start with from my experience are the Skeleton King and the Sniper. Also the game does a pretty good job of recommending items for your character. When I start with a new character I almost always use the recommended items for it, and start mixing and matching as the situation requires only once I have a firm grasp of the character.


You are right though, this game takes a lot of practice.I have nearly 300 hours played into it by now and I'm proficient with maybe only 10-15 of the games 80+ characters, and I still don't know what all the other character's moves do yet exactly. You have to be patient and give it some more games.

EDIT: You also might be better off playing a support type character until you get the ropes since they tend to rely a lot less on becoming super farmed early on, and their abilities can still be useful to the whole team even if you are underleveled. My GF swears by the Crystal Maiden (although she's pretty fragile and has low attack damage) and the Vengeful Spirit, and the Lion.

If you must know, Drow Ranger, because I'd heard she was a good starter (also who Ashe was based on in LoL and she's EVERYONE'S starter). But it wasn't even a whole game. Someone got DC'ed before the game even started, so I could leave without penalty, and at the time it seemed like a good idea to stop wasting my life on something I thought was terrible beyond redemption.

Heck, letting people leave without penalty if someone never gets into the game (at least in unranked play) is something I'd much rather LoL taking over than being able to deny--

matches. I was going to say 'deny matches'.

Besides, in both games, if you really mess up, the turret is going to be denying you a lot more than the other player.

 

[Dandark]

Snip

Im actually planning to start redownloading it tonight and try playing some bot games to see if I can get used to the user interface, maybe learn the different lane and jungle layout, find some secret shop I have heard about.

My main problem is that I enjoy LoL and get easily annoyed by the awful interface in LoL, if you know it then im sure it's fine but otherwise it's a pain to use. Im hoping they soon finish a tutorial for it, I tried looking up guides online including the one you linked but they seem more like guides to a MOBA.
I already know how lanes and towers work as well as the fact that I need to kill minions and get xp and gold for items and levels. It seems I can only learn what I need through experience so i'll try some bot games then go destroy my faith in humanity by playing PvP and hopefully learn to play it somewhat decently.

So far though it looks like I may stick with LoL, I just prefer some of the slight differences they have in LoL over DOTA2, hopefully I can play both though.

 

[Sight Unseen]

Just out of curiosity, who did you play in your (presumably only) game of Dota? Because certain heroes are much harder to learn than others ( *cough* invoker *cough*) Some good heroes to start with from my experience are the Skeleton King and the Sniper. Also the game does a pretty good job of recommending items for your character. When I start with a new character I almost always use the recommended items for it, and start mixing and matching as the situation requires only once I have a firm grasp of the character.


You are right though, this game takes a lot of practice.I have nearly 300 hours played into it by now and I'm proficient with maybe only 10-15 of the games 80+ characters, and I still don't know what all the other character's moves do yet exactly. You have to be patient and give it some more games.

EDIT: You also might be better off playing a support type character until you get the ropes since they tend to rely a lot less on becoming super farmed early on, and their abilities can still be useful to the whole team even if you are underleveled. My GF swears by the Crystal Maiden (although she's pretty fragile and has low attack damage) and the Vengeful Spirit, and the Lion.

If you must know, Drow Ranger, because I'd heard she was a good starter (also who Ashe was based on in LoL and she's EVERYONE'S starter). But it wasn't even a whole game. Someone got DC'ed before the game even started, so I could leave without penalty, and at the time it seemed like a good idea to stop wasting my life on something I thought was terrible beyond redemption.

Heck, letting people leave without penalty if someone never gets into the game (at least in unranked play) is something I'd much rather LoL taking over than being able to deny--

matches. I was going to say 'deny matches'.

Besides, in both games, if you really mess up, the turret is going to be denying you a lot more than the other player.

I've only ever played Drow Ranger once and I sucked with her. She is a hard carry though so if you're slow out of the gates then she doesn't snowball well and she'll have a rough late game. Like I said before, I recommend that you try and start with a support type character, or someone with a good stun, and play a FULL game to try and get a feel for the game.

I can't believe you'd completely rule out this game based on one partial match where there wasn't even a full player set...

 

[NerfedFalcon]

I've only ever played Drow Ranger once and I sucked with her. She is a hard carry though so if you're slow out of the gates then she doesn't snowball well and she'll have a rough late game. Like I said before, I recommend that you try and start with a support type character, or someone with a good stun, and play a FULL game to try and get a feel for the game.

I can't believe you'd completely rule out this game based on one partial match where there wasn't even a full player set...

I was an idiot, okay? At the time, I was angry over a few design flaws, which I don't know if the people making it know about, or if they'll change it due to it being part of the original game's design--NO! BAD LEET! Well, I know it's Valve, and that it's mostly fans of the mod who would be paying $30 to play the new game early before they finished all the new-player stuff, so...

Describe GE with anything? "UALUEALUEALEUALE"

 

[blazearmoru]

He's a confirmed troll. He pmed me calling me a liar at my claim about how you can use creativity to get you out of tough situations and turn the game around. I proceed to give him many examples in which a person could do if they are being out CSed and his reply to each example is "I'll die cus he'll perma-stun me due to having a mountain of farm" at level fucking 1.

I'd show you the ropes if you wana give it another shot but you really goto stop with this lying shit. There's a clear line between bias and bullshit. You cross that line, NO COMMUNITY FROM ANYWHERE is gona let that shit just fly. Get your ass on DotA and add me, If you're interested I don't just let noobs hang. Oh btw, I hope you chose the lowest difficulty or you're gona get beat way back down to your elo.

Unfortunately, when you said this, it turned me right off every other little piece of over-aggressive advertising that was almost getting me interested. Here's the thing - EVE Online advertised itself as having infinite choice, but that's only after grinding for many hours to get your 'elite pilot's license' before you get any of the good stuff. Dota 2, from what I can tell, is the same way only with nothing as official as League has. You don't get to experiment until you already know what to do in general, and that takes hours and hours.

Especially since there's no way to change the difficulty option, and if you'd bothered to read the entire post, you'll know that it gave me the impression (until I started playing it anyway) that my experience with the genre WOULDN'T be useless, so I picked 'average'. Like I said, since I can't change it, that basically means that the Elite Pilot's License training is going to be outright painful rather than just grind.

Like everyone else in this thread, you've turned me off the game a lot more than you've turned me on. You almost had it, but...Look, I'm all for games being more difficult, but there's a fine line between difficult and bullshit, and based on what you've told me,DotA is on the wrong side of the line.

You messaged me and I can repost it here if you'd like. You're trolling and you know it. You're lying every bit of the way. You're saying how faceless void cannot be stopped because you can't out last hit him, can't harass him, can't out fight him, and can't gank him, can't disrupt the lane either. Every time I bring ANY of that shit up, you just go back to saying "but then he'll kill me cus he's farmed up"

I tell you "if he tries to last hit a creep, hit him"
your response "he's farmed up so i'll die if i hit him"
So you're saying he can freely hit everything in the map all the time or what?

I give you another option "beat down multiple creeps so he's forced to choose so he can't deny you for free"
your response "he'll kill me if I hit the creep cus he's farmed up."
What? is he standing next to you under your tower during all this with his magical tower invulnerability granted only to players who are not you?

I tell you to "find another option, like choose someone who can stun"
and your response is "cus he's farmed, he'll perma stun me first and i'll die"
to which I respond with "so you think bushes is a unique mechanic and no other game has fog or line of sight? or is it just a league thing to run straight in a losing fight the only thing you can come up with after years of physiological conditioning through punishment whenever anyone used critical thinking? I change my carry into a support and won. It's pretty common actually, when you realize that running straight in is stupid and would actually lead to your death so most people would wait in the shadows for an opportunity."

When logic fails you, you start talking about how Valve lied about it's difficulty setting, and is unthinkable and ought to be punished cus LoL would never have smurfs. Really? No smurfs in League?

You chose to run in and fight someone you can't win against in a fair 1v1 fight, but do it anyway... while they are using their surroundings but you, decide not to. You choose to do nothing but cower under tower as your opponents does things and you're expecting to still be a huge part of the game or better yet, a strong and mighty unstoppable carry? You choose to play the carry role even though you knew you won't make it. Instead of being a team player, you chose to be a carry even though you and everyone knew that you won't make it. You chose to run straight in instead of strategizing. If you're angry that choosing to lose, leads to losing, maybe you ought to try choosing to win. Here's how you deal with a bad situation. It's called problem solving. Maybe you've heard of it in elementary school.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6N75WKSq_4k&feature=player_detailpage#t=986s
Dark Seer - Cannot Perma-Bash. Maybe he's from LoL, since he can turn games around.

Whatever, you're the one missing out. You don't want a reason to play DotA2. You just wana start shit cus LoL is boring, repetitive and brilliantly punishes creativity. Jealousy hurts dun it? DotA unlike LoL isn't about becoming strong enough to kill all the things, a race to become the fattest; it's about adapting to the situation at hand, critical thinking, problem solving, selling yo shit and switching your build if you need to so that your team may survive and be victorious.

All these are paraphrased and I kept all of this troll's private messages. Don't waste your time on this troll post.

 

[Finbark]

Halo is better than CoD.

Oh, what? Wrong thread? My bad.

OT: I suppose I should respond to the new OP instead of the flame war...
I don't get why people can't just play the games they want to, instead of feeling like they need to play the similar, but still totally different game.
I enjoy League; I don't enjoy DotA. Some people get a kick out of DotA's design, and some people enjoy League's design. AND SOME PEOPLE ENJOY BOTH *GASP*
Whatever, I guess people will keep arguing about it until the next pair of popular games that are somewhat similar come out.

 

[Skin]

Amount of leavers right now is ridiculous in Dota 2. Hold on a few more months till Valve sorts their shit out.