Given the recent flops of attempts at reviving JRP. Who is to blame for disgracing JRPGs?

[WhiteFangofWhoa]

Blame is too strong a word, especially after just one bad outing- every genre has its turds. When the poster boy starts throwing up on stage, it does cast a shadowy reflection on the rest of the genre.

I still love me some Shin Megami Tensei and the occasional Tales game, but now when the majority of the people hear that acronym, they associate it with Final Fantasy and its recent outings. Perhaps the upcoming remake of FFXII will change some people's minds since it had a lot of good things in it held back by a few annoying flaws, but I must remind myself that this is still the company that cancelled Chrono Break.

The other factor I think might be a contributor is that back in the day, JRPGs were the only games around that used stat-building gameplay, whilst nowadays every single game does that without being held back by clumsy transitions between combat and field screens or an abundance of dialogue, both of which can turn less patient gamers away. Or turn-based combat, which I like but others seem to hate even if it's ATB.

 

[Gamerpalooza]

Most iconic JRPGs are doing fine.

The ones that aren't is due to their inability of understand that the games story and lore has to be equally as enticing as the content & gameplay.

If I wanted a side scrolling movie playing through and through I would rather watch a movie or read a book.

 

[Erttheking]

I'd say its more that the reputation of JRPGs took quite a few bad hits. Square Enix can mostly be thanked for that with utterly trashing the reputation of Final Fantasy by turning its name into the ultimate ironic punchline, although other companies helped. Like Fuckonami, with them keeping Suikoden under lockdown and not having released a good game for it in a decade.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a2/Suikoden_Tierkreis.jpg

I said a GOOD game! And there's also the fact that some JRPGs just rely a bit too much on anime silliness and melodrama at times. And for some reason there's a fifty-fifty chance of the main character being a whiny, and/or a minor, which can get annoying.

But truth be told JRPGs are doing pretty well right now. I wasn't really a fan of Bravely Default, it's story and characters were just kinda ok, the plot was mainly being driven by the bad guys going "We're doing this to stop something really bad but we're not going to tell you what" the game got grindy and I lost my patience with it when it got to the vampire side quest, but when you get down to it people really liked it. So even Square Enix is making a comback (Outside of Final Fantasy anyway). Dark Souls is technically a JRPG (I know people don't think of it that way, but it's a RPG from Japan) Persona was a massive hit, and that opened the floodgates for the Shin Megami Tensei series as a whole, the Tales Of series has maintained a steady fanbase. Fire Emblem is doing well even if some people say the supports in Fates were a bit spotty (And when you pry your eyes away from the people freaking out a ten second long minigame being taken out)

Overall I'd say the genre is doing well, although it might have a bit of a public image problem.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

I didn't know JRPGs were in a bind. There's plenty of them out there and people are playing them. What more does a game need?

 

[deadish]

IMHO, the biggest problem with JRPGs is their combat system.

For the longest time, it has been turn-based which works very well for a team of characters.

Starting from FFXII, combat-wise it has been downhill. Real-time + controlling a group of characters = clusterfuck.

Going back to turn-based combat probably isn't an option for a AAA title.

JRPGs are still alive though. In the form of "indie" games, porting and distribution of old obscure JRPGs to platforms like Steam and the Final Fantasy MMOs.

My 2c.

I mean, while the combat systems for some JRPGs have been pretty fucked up, I feel it wasn't FFXII that started the problem - hell, it was literally Dragon Age: Origins combat system, just with Quickenings and horribly overpowered melee characters instead of horribly overpowered mages and drinking poltices. UI was a little clunky but overall it wasn't that out of place from many Western-style combat systems.

It's just... when they started over-complicating the systems, that's when shit got weird. X and XIII are good examples of this, since in X there was all that active-time switching or whatever it was, and XIII had the whole 're-arrange your entire class composition on the fly and oh also you can't change party-lead in battle and if they die you're fucked' deal. XII did change the system to the Real-time active command deal, but it didn't feel... over-the-top? Just run of the mill, really.

...Granted, 'run of the mill' probably isn't the best selling point either, and it definitely could've been ironed out a bit more (good god are the AI partners dumb), butit worked well enough.

X was fine IMHO - at least for a normal playthrough. Being turn-based you knew what was going on and had full control over your party unlike in FFXII where it's just a chaotic mess - FFXIII ... slightly less cumbersome UI, against same problem as FFXII, you had little control over your party.

Real-time combat and controlling multiple characters don't mix IMHO. If you want to do real time combat, you have to do it MMORPG-style where you control one and only one character - excluding pets that play a limited role in fights and more or less take care of themselves with AoE avoidance traits.

 

[lachlan4567]

I feel the Bravely series is a perfect combination of old and new.
Classic turn based combat with a twist.
Extensive and complex job system with a huge amount of variety.
A bevy of user friendly features, such as being able to alter the encounter rate, speed up battles to a lightning pace and even program your moveset for random encounters so the grind feels so much more manageable.
Anyone who has a 3Ds should give Bravely Default and Bravely Second a shot.

 

[Souplex]

JRPGs are to blame for the death of the JRPG by marching in the wrong direction starting with FF7.

The 360 is also to blame, as it caused WRPGs to stop being PC exclusive, so people could play them the generation the tossed off most of their convoluted baggage. Once people had an alternative the JRPG suffered by comparison.

 

[crypticracer]

IMHO, the biggest problem with JRPGs is their combat system.

For the longest time, it has been turn-based which works very well for a team of characters.

Starting from FFXII, combat-wise it has been downhill. Real-time + controlling a group of characters = clusterfuck.

Going back to turn-based combat probably isn't an option for a AAA title.

JRPGs are still alive though. In the form of "indie" games, porting and distribution of old obscure JRPGs to platforms like Steam and the Final Fantasy MMOs.

My 2c.

I mean, while the combat systems for some JRPGs have been pretty fucked up, I feel it wasn't FFXII that started the problem - hell, it was literally Dragon Age: Origins combat system, just with Quickenings and horribly overpowered melee characters instead of horribly overpowered mages and drinking poltices. UI was a little clunky but overall it wasn't that out of place from many Western-style combat systems.

It's just... when they started over-complicating the systems, that's when shit got weird. X and XIII are good examples of this, since in X there was all that active-time switching or whatever it was, and XIII had the whole 're-arrange your entire class composition on the fly and oh also you can't change party-lead in battle and if they die you're fucked' deal. XII did change the system to the Real-time active command deal, but it didn't feel... over-the-top? Just run of the mill, really.

...Granted, 'run of the mill' probably isn't the best selling point either, and it definitely could've been ironed out a bit more (good god are the AI partners dumb), butit worked well enough.

X was fine IMHO - at least for a normal playthrough. Being turn-based you knew what was going on and had full control over your party unlike in FFXII where it's just a chaotic mess - FFXIII ... slightly less cumbersome UI, against same problem as FFXII, you had little control over your party.

Real-time combat and controlling multiple characters don't mix IMHO. If you want to do real time combat, you have to do it MMORPG-style where you control one and only one character - excluding pets that play a limited role in fights and more or less take care of themselves with AoE avoidance traits.

I agree that real time and controlling a big party has been a huge problem, A tales game or ni no kuni just has me playing when I realize my party got wiped in an instant. I don't want them to heal themselves, because they just waste their mp, but if they don't, I spend the entire battle micro managing them instead of fighting, it just feels like I'm not being allowed to enjoy the battles.

however I feel ffxii is the only game that has done this right.

 

[gyrobot_v1legacy]

There's more western competition now of other genres. Back in the 16 bit thru PS2 era a lot of the biggest games were still JRPGs even in the west. Now they are full of TPS/FPS shooters and WRPGs.

 

[meiam]

Well its pretty obvious JRPG are doing nowhere near as well as they were in the SNES and PS2 era. Nowaday there practically banished to handheld which guarantee they'll be of lower quality.

I guess the fault lie with JRPG dev, most new JRPG either refuse to innovate (I am setsuna is a prime example) or do so in incredibly weird way (FF13 "press X to auto win every fight"). JRPG were also mostly supported by there story, but with the rise in anime streaming people can easily get the same kind of story.

Though I don't think SO5 is a good example, the series being going down in quality way before JRPG were in trouble. But it does point to the problem, this years there's going to be maybe 2-3 big budget JRPG for console/PC, having even just one of them suck is a huge deal. Back in late 90 early 2000 one JRPG sucking was just a drop in a bucket.

I think if JRPG want to come back there just need to more of them so that you can guarantee you'll get at least 4 good one per year (not counting portable and portable port). Rather than focus on high end graphic they need to focus on strong art style that will resist the test of time(chrono trigger looks way better than I am setsuna does, that's what good art style does). They need to try to break the mold in story so that it doesn't feel like you're watching a C-tier anime with the same 5 clich? character. They need to re-examine how gameplay should work, its obvious that there's a problem when people celebrate a game for giving the player the option to turn off combat.

 

[Javarock]

I don't know. I think there's going to be a wave of innovation coming to Jrpg, and a shift in style to something a little bit more action paced. Dragon's Dogma was innovative, as was kingdoms hearts. And it looks like the new final fantasy is drawing some inspiration from them. If it turns out half as good as the gameplay trailers advertised, I think Square's got my money back in their pocket again.

That said, as I only occasional foray into JRPG's, with Square taking a big part in the ones I played as a kid. I absolutely hated Final Fantasy 13 (To me it felt like it essentially played itself.) And I feel that a large portion of western audiences do associate them as a pillar of the JRPG, if they innovate it could cause changes.

Edit: Since it was mentioned, Pokemon is also a big influence to me, and if we're considering Turn-Based Fire Emblem has and always will be one of my favorite game series.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Regarding battle systems, Persona 5 is still turn based, so the system can be great. Also, there's Valkyria Chronicles, that was turn based too, same with pokemon and Bravely series.


Turn based isn't inferior, it just has to be done well and then people will like it. Hell, eveyone liked darkest dungeon and southpark and those games were basically jrpgs as far as their combat system goes.

 

[Bad Jim]

Yahtzee is a professional troll. He is very good at making games sound bad and I don't think he had any love of JRPGs in the first place. Him tearing a game or two to pieces doesn't really mean anything about the genre or whether it is dying.

 

[deadish]

I agree that real time and controlling a big party has been a huge problem, A tales game or ni no kuni just has me playing when I realize my party got wiped in an instant. I don't want them to heal themselves, because they just waste their mp, but if they don't, I spend the entire battle micro managing them instead of fighting, it just feels like I'm not being allowed to enjoy the battles.

however I feel ffxii is the only game that has done this right.

Still less than ideal though. Setting up Gambits ... not everyone quite got that I feel - being kind of indirect. Even with Gambits, you don't feel in control.

 

[WeepingAngels]

- I am so tired of anime style graphics. If you are going to tell me the graphics were supposed to be anime in the SNES era, I will tell you that it was to their benefit that I couldn't tell that.

- Voice acting. Being able to assign voices in my head is more important than I realized.

- I don't like collecting shit so I can craft something else, I just want to buy what I would have crafted. You see, going into a new town used to be exciting because it meant new equipment would be in the shops. Finding chests in dungeons was fun because it could be some next level equipment, now it's some crafting material.

- Real time battle systems. In these systems you can only control one character at a time (unless you want to pause over and over again slowing down the game to a crawl). This is just not satisfying. I liked Gambits in 2006 when it was new and I liked my first Tales game (Symphonia) but I am too burned out now. Tales games feel like they are coming off of a samey assembly line, they all look and play similarly.

- Too wordy. Characters arguing back and forth about kid stuff (I guess I am just tired of kids in JRPG's), repeating stuff, forced tutorials that pretend you don't even know how to use the d-pad, analog sticks or the buttons. Character interaction is fine but some modern games just go on and on and on. I end up tuning out all the dialogue and eventually just lose interest. Losing the memory constraints after the SNES hasn't been kind to JRPG's.

At the end of the day, I am starting to see what people have been complaining about all along. Many JRPG's are shallow. You move from town to town helping to save the town from some bad guy or disaster and then you move on to the next. Sometimes you don't even get the satisfaction of buying new equipment anymore.

Here are things I like in JRPG's:

- Combat is fast, flashy is ok if it doesn't slow down the battles too much.

- Dialogue is to the point and very little is wasted. Tell the story, give me some character interaction but don't drown me in dialogue. It brings the game to a crawl.

- Simple progression system. I level up, all my stats go up a little and I might learn a spell. Giving me an extra point to spend on a stat of my choosing is good too as long as it is in addition to traditional level ups like I mentioned above.

- I like being able to grind to win. I also like being able to exploit enemy weaknesses if I don't want to grind. I don't like area level caps (like Lost Odyssey had). Let me decide when the enemies are no longer worth grinding.

- I don't mind a large cast of characters like Final Fantasy 6 has but I really hate being forced to split up and playing as three different parties, again Final Fantasy 6. I really enjoy starting with one weak character and meeting 2 or 3 more along the way and just building them into powerhouses without the juggling act. Now when there is a large cast, I always level evenly so I never run the risk of end game disasters.

To be honest, I am in a phase where everything I try to play just bores me. I am just tired of it all. I should mention that even with all those criticisms of JRPG's, I dislike open world WRPG's more. I can't stand quest based games. I put in hundreds of enjoyable hours playing Morrowind and Oblivion but by the time Skyrim came out, that ship had sailed. I'll take a linear story over an open world borefest any day, even if the linear story is childish and stupid. In reality though, I would just play neither.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Huh? Disgracing? What? Jrpgs are awesome lol. You just have personal grudge aginst Compa dude. Just because people like current Jrpgs doesn't mean they're less critical, just that...they like what Jrpg are. They like them for the exact reasons the haters hate them for. It's a matter of different tastes in gaming.

To base ANYTHING on the vocal jrpg hater Yatzee, treating his opinion as more valid than fans of the genre, him being someone who never like any of them from the beginning, is bizzare and evidence of your huge bias.

Bravely Second, 7th Dragon, Grand Kingdom, Odin Sphere Leifthrasir, Yoru No Nai Kuni, Trails of Cold Steel, Project x Zone 2, Persona 5, Caligula, FFXV, Ray Gigant, Shiren 2, MeiQ

Jut a couple of new or upcoming glorious jrpgs which have nothing about them approaches a state of disgrace. Not that one game company sucking even COULD just ruin a whole genre. Superman 64 doesn't make Arkhm City suck by existing >.>.

Jrpg are great, their fans happy, those who never like em still don't. There's no issue.

I was going to post a list of reasons I fundamentally disagree that JRPGs are being "disgraced" but then I saw this post, which pretty much summed it up for me.

I'm going to throw extra weight behind Persona (obviously given the avatar), Ni No Kuni and the Bravely Default/Second games as being shining beacons of what the genre is and disprove any indication that the genre needing reviving.

Haha, I know right. Just a month left and the 8 year wait for P5 is over, I can scarcely wait.

I would have listed Ninokuni but I wanted to list games that are either upcoming or came out not too long ago...but there is a Ninokuni 2 on the way so there's that!

Also Bravely Third is in the plans according to second's ending, as well. (Bravelg Saado/Bravely soodo=sword, you get the pun )

 

[SweetShark]

If somehow this Thread ruin my enjoyment while playing Persona 5 in the future, I will find you and then {Redacted}.
But no, I think the problem is we expect more from JRPG nowdays and we get disappointed cause of that.

 

[Remus]

JRPGs were largely a result of graphics being incapable of being able to show facial expression without mutated facial features and in depth leveling systems being the measure of progress rather than simply entering a new stage. That time has passed. The leveling structures and skill systems have become standard in 50% of all games that you pick up these days, right beside entering new maps in which those skills would be used. Overworld maps have been traded in for open world environments, and facial expression has evolved by leaps and bounds since the days of Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy 6. Modern chibi expression, just no. I'm a huge fan of realistic facial expression. The big eyes and tiny noses may have shaped the age of SNES and Genesis but are a huge turnoff now. Turn based battle systems felt backward when I first played it, and it just seems even more backward now and no amount of active time combat will change that. Why would I want to play the latest Xeno Quest XII when I have The Witcher and Dragon Age, with Cyberpunk 2077 and other big titles coming down the pipe?

 

[Tilly]

The 2 Xenoblades have been a big exception. Those games are up there with the best of the Final Fantasies.

Square-Enix have definitely lost their storytelling abilities. They also seem to have invested in very dubious ways. I mean, Bravely Default was massively profitable for them and they said it made them realise people still wanted traditional JRPGs but then they invested fuck all in the sequel. Reusing about 2/3rds of the original games assets. Surprise surprise, it sold a lot less!

Why the hell didn't they invest in a proper full-blown sequel and turn it into a new FF-like series.