Grandpa Tastes Concrete Over Videogames

[The_root_of_all_evil]

The officer had his hand on the man's back, and his legs might have gotten tangled with his. This would have led to the unfortunate accident of a cuffed old man faceplanting into concrete, but could easily look like the officer shoving him to an onlooker.

The question remains, why was an old man handcuffed in the middle of a store?

Can you think of a reason why someone would be handcuffed that wouldn't be immediately mentioned in the police account of the incident?

If you do a straight-arm-bar takedown (which is what it looked like) correctly most healthy people will at worst have a scrape on their chest/face. Though this guy was in his 50's I'm sure the officer didn't exactly know all that.

Wold you say that the only way to smash someone's face up like that is restraining their arms and then forcing them to the floor?

I've seen someone who came off a bike travelling at speed that didn't take as much damage to their face as that.

 

[Frylock72]

If the old man was indeed cuffed, as the majority of the reports seem to say, then his arms were restrained when he took the plunge. Perhaps "directly on his face" was a poor choice of words, since it would indeed be difficult to hit face first. I meant that his face took the brunt of the impact, which can happen if you don't stop yourself with your hands (he was cuffed) or at least your knees (I didn't see how he fell).

This is where the problem lies.

If he was cuffed, as witnesses say, why was he pushed to the floor?

If he was flailing, as police say, why didn't he protect his face or roll when he fell?

I understand witness reports can vary, but when none of them seem to corroborate what happened?

He was cuffed before he hit the floor. If he was tackled, he couldn't roll, and he definitely couldn't protect his face.

I went to both Walmart and Target here, and I have to say that Walmart was atrocious. There was no attempt to maintain security or keep things orderly at all. The entire front of the store was a mob of people pushing and trying to get where they wanted to go.

Target, by comparison, was orderly and while crowded (as is to be expected), there were associates diverting people and showing where things were. Lines were long but controlled, and they even had us weaving between aisles next to the registers in order to conserve space.

Overall, Walmart just doesn't care and it's becoming increasingly clear lately.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

He was cuffed before he hit the floor. If he was tackled, he couldn't roll, and he definitely couldn't protect his face.

Yep. He was cuffed and then tackled. Can @ace_of_something: or someone else tell us a reason where that would be normal US police procedure?

Once you're cuffed, you're almost totally disabled from being a threat.

And NONE of the witnesses, who were kind enough to come forward, mentioned the old man being a threat?

 

[Vigilantis]

The one black friday stampede I went to a dozen people did this and it wasn't to steal the items but in fact to protect the item from other customers. You see, during a black friday sale, everything is open game...including items inside other peoples shopping carts. (Seriously I watched a Mother tell her children to grab what they wanted from a shopping cart whos owner was trying to pick out socks nearby.

Where as its true its not "shoplifting" until they are outside the store this rule does not apply to police. Police are allowed to at any time during what they believe is a crime to apprehend the suspect. A security/loss prevention officer however can't touch or approach the subject until they have left the building (and even then there are certain checklists that need to be crossed off such as did anyone directly see an item be stuffed into someones pants or were the motions just made). Seriously we let a guy walk out of the store with a few Blu-Ray movies because a "senior officer" didn't see the crime and the noobies word is not enough to go on apparently. K-Mart, Target and JCPennies are all known to have a hands off policy where the guards only purpose is to deter thieves and to either escort wouldbe thieves off the property or to attempt to write down license plate numbers of those who get away for the police.

The fact that walmart had to have POLICE stationed in their store for this sale should point out how wrong this shit is. Black friday is perhaps the worst day of the year that brings out human greed.

 

[Rabid Toilet]

Yep. He was cuffed and then tackled. Can @ace_of_something: or someone else tell us a reason where that would be normal US police procedure?

Once you're cuffed, you're almost totally disabled from being a threat.

And NONE of the witnesses, who were kind enough to come forward, mentioned the old man being a threat?

As I've said before, if he was cuffed beforehand, it's possible he wasn't tackled at all.

If he was indeed tackled, I can think of a few reasons it might be necessary. If the guy tried to run for it for one (or if it looked like it), the officer needs to subdue him somehow while making sure he isn't a threat to anyone else. You can't taze a guy in the middle of a crowd, so a tackle would seem appropriate to me.

 

[Aiedail256]

The Tabloids likely response?

"PROOF: GAMES CAUSE VIOLENCE"

O_O NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

OT: the police are definitely most in the wrong here. Even if their side of the story is accurate (which I highly doubt), there was no reason to break the guy's face. Doesn't matter if they technically had the right to, or if it's what they're trained to do, it's still despicable.

 

[Amnestic]

ANY amount of resistance is met with the minimal force required. A takedown is a lot less force then say, yanking on someone or fist-fighting them until they subdue.

Assuming that the police follow procedures of course. Which recent events have taught us is most definitely not always the case.

 

[mitchell271]

Oh, look, another case of police brutality and the cops saying "Not my fault!". BULL-FUCKING-SHIT. And just watch it get investigated by police and they'll say "NP with this"

 

[Varil]

Okay. One question : If he was already cuffed, then how was he flailing his arms?

 

[hooksashands]

When I was little and cops would visit my school, we were told it was their job to protect us. Protect us from what, exactly? Old men shoplifting a $40-60 item? Bravo, fuckers

It's getting to the point where I'm more afraid of the cops than the criminals.

I'm sure he deserved it.

And I'm sure everyone will remember that when you are beaten, cuffed and thrown in a cell for stealing from Walmart or some equally pathethic crime.

 

[Aeonknight]

Okay. One question : If he was already cuffed, then how was he flailing his arms?

Watch the video.
He was clearly cuffed after getting face planted.
The article got the order of events wrong.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

As I've said before, if he was cuffed beforehand, it's possible he wasn't tackled at all.

But the only way you can do that to someone is restraint and then force. If he's only cuffed, then he can fall on his side. If he's only tackled, then he can protect his face.

It needs both for him to bite concrete like that. And both would be unnecessary.

Look at it this way, when have you ever seen a episode of COPS or World's Wildest Police Chases or the like where someone receives the same sort of damage? If this was a normal occurence, don't you think we would have seen something like that before?

 

[Baldr]

This whole thing happen over a bullshit law to begin with. Under Arizona law, concealment can be used as a basis for arrest -- officers aren't required to wait for a suspect to leave the store.

According to witnesses other people were pulling merchandise out of other people's hands, the only way to protect it was to conceal it.

"At about three minutes to 10, "without warning or direction from Walmart employees, the crowd rushed the game stand," the report states. The officer writing that part of the report says he was pushed aside by the noisy crowd and tried to help a man who had been knocked down.

Another officer wrote that he saw the crowd "rush in and attack the cardboard displays with video games flying through the air and the cardboard displays being thrown around..."

The chaos left little kids crying and adults stunned at what they saw.

A 15-year-old boy later told cops that he'd managed to grab three of the games, but "older boys with tattooed faces took them from him."

 

[luckshot]

Okay. One question : If he was already cuffed, then how was he flailing his arms?

Watch the video.
He was clearly cuffed after getting face planted.
The article got the order of events wrong.

actually what you see in the video is them uncuffing one hand to add another set of cuffs so they could safely (without causing arm damage) roll him over

 

[Kenjitsuka]

"said a police spokesman. "It's difficult to arrest an individual because you don't know how that individual is going to react."

Yeah... that's why they get this long, expensive training to do it properly...
So a weak excuse.

And if the old fart was already in handcuffs, I don't see the need to ram him into the ground.
Unless his highkicks to the face where sparking some alarm...

 

[Treblaine]

Why do the news outlets insist on calling him a "grandfather"? It's a weasel word intended to generate sympathy from the audience, meaning it is biased reporting.

I guarantee you, if it had been a young non-white kid (Black, Hispanic, Asian, whatever) they'd be calling him "suspect" "accused" and "alleged shoplifter" and definitely not endlessly as someone's "Grandson" or even "teenager".

I wonder how much they are pandering to their audience. It's not so much negative racism against non-white, but unfairly positive racism towards whites.

 

[theheroofaction]

Ugh.

Why is it that nobody watches the watchmen.
Seriously, if there's anyone who needs more policing it's the police themselves.

 

[ace_of_something]

ANY amount of resistance is met with the minimal force required. A takedown is a lot less force then say, yanking on someone or fist-fighting them until they subdue.

Assuming that the police follow procedures of course. Which recent events have taught us is most definitely not always the case.

Yes, you're right. Assuming he did what he was supposed to. From a cursory glance (the only thing the media allows), and obviously I nor ANYONE here has the full story, it looks more like he got panic-y and made stupid choices rather than being willfully malicious. There is a difference. Not just for cops but for ANYONE those are two different mistakes/offenses with separate charges. Hard to prove though. Especially in the harsh court of public opinion.

Oh, look, another case of police brutality and the cops saying "Not my fault!". BULL-FUCKING-SHIT. And just watch it get investigated by police and they'll say "NP with this"

Most medium-large sized police departments are investigated by a separate body usually appointed by a county board/mayor's office ect. To keep down on conflict of interest.

It doesn't look like brutality (which is intentional) so much as it looks like an accidental or negligent conduct. Which still is met with discipline.

If you do a straight-arm-bar takedown (which is what it looked like) correctly most healthy people will at worst have a scrape on their chest/face. Though this guy was in his 50's I'm sure the officer didn't exactly know all that.

Wold you say that the only way to smash someone's face up like that is restraining their arms and then forcing them to the floor?

I've seen someone who came off a bike travelling at speed that didn't take as much damage to their face as that.

The more I look at it. It seems very unlikely that he wasn't handcuffed.
There are ways to take someone to the floor without hurting them if they're handcuffed (like if they try to run) most of them involve putting the person on their side or landing them flat on their butt. (which typically does the least amount of damage)
If you do a typical takedown, which is executed ideally from behind or the person's side, which is where you should be standing if someone is handcuffed, the person will probably land on their front, this is done because it puts someone in the easiest position to handcuff them. A person's natural instinct is to hold out their arms when they're falling, which is why there is usually just scrapes (among other reasons)

So it stands to reason with a severe face injury and no injuries to the arms/shoulders/hips that yeah. This knucklehead did a regular takedown on a guy in handcuffs. That's a no no.

This officer made a series of stupid mistakes he should be held accountable for, but I don't agree with people accusing him of being some blood-lusting monster.

The reason the public doesn't always get the information from internal investigations is due to the fact that most Fraternal Order of Police union contracts forbid that information from being released.

why? Well... you see how the public reacts to when a cop makes a mistake you think they need more ammo to ruin their life forever with?

 

[Mrsoupcup]

I hope it was Skyrim, going to jail over some discount shovelware wii game would be aweful.

This is why I don't go shopping on Black Friday, deals are not worth being trampled to death.

Spoiler: Also I couldn't resist :3