Halo 4 Sexism Earns You a Lifetime Ban

[Rainboq]

...I've had a lot of fun times absolutely ruined by people telling me to go get in the kitchen.

Why? Why do you let some dumbass on XBL ruin YOUR good time? People say stupid shit sometimes. They're going to say stuff that offends you. But if your good time is lost because they say something to hurt you, then their job is complete. YOU give them power. YOU allow them to ruin your good time. If I got offended and stopped having fun every time somebody insulted me, I'd be a shut-in with no friends and little-to-no human interaction...

TL;DR: Screw them. Have fun, and don't let a little prick on the internet ruin your fun time.

Its not one, two or even three, but scores and scores of the morons that ruin my time. The constant messages asking me for (often naked) pics, random friend requests, and/or telling me to get back into the kitchen. Because its never one. Its often pairs, trios or even teams of the morons.

That is unfortunate. I really wish that MS took more stock in banning people who abuse the messaging functionality for things like that, because it is uncalled for, immature, and annoying. Do I feel that those people should be banned? Yes, I do. Do I feel that someone who says something that could be interpreted as sexism by some individuals during a match should be banned? No, I do not.

My argument is solely based around in-game chat during HALO matches. These same sentiments don't apply to out-of-game communications features inside XBox live.

And if they use the in game chat to do the same thing? This is about getting rid of the casual sexism and misogyny that lives in the community, and yes the measures are drastic, but the culture is really entrenched, and nothing short of nuking it from orbit is sure enough to work.

 

[Bashfluff]

So basically "your rights end where my feelings begin"? Since when did game producers have a say in what people do on Xbox live.

Don't be obtuse. This isn't about my poor widdle fee-fees. This is about the fact that XBL has such a systemic culture of hate that folks like me literally don't want to go anywhere near it. It doesn't matter how much I love a game and want to be part of its online community-- I am not going to go into an environment that is unsafe and abusive. I don't need your sexist, homophobia, racist bullshit in my escapist past time.

To be honest, if most Halo 4 gamers end up permabanned for this, then good. It's a long time coming. If you cannot play a game and trash talk without coloring your language with hate speech, thereby breaching the terms of conduct, then you deserve to be banned.

This is a small step to making games more inclusive and I'm thrilled about it. Maybe my 360 will stop collecting dust on my shelf.

So it IS my poor little fee-fees. If you say something over the internet I find offensive while playing a video game with me, you don't deserve to play that video game online. I'm sorry, but I cannot view the freedom of speech as less important than your want to not be offended.
You are not "unsafe". It's an online video game. Someone telling you to get back in the kitchen is not abuse. This will not make games more inclusive, but turn people off, because if there is one thing that gamers love, it's people trying to control their speech. You may not like others' "sexist, homophobic, racist bullshit," but I don't like your overeactionary, thin-skinned, oppressive bullshit. Does that mean that you no longer get to play Halo online?

That's freedom of speech

I'm sorry, but not all of us live in 'merica [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWS-FoXbjVI]. In Canada, we have laws the put exceptions for hate speech in our freedom of speech legislation. Also, it is harrasment.

Lets define our terms, shall we?

[HEADING=2]Psychological harassment[/HEADING]
This is humiliating, intimidating or abusive behaviour which is often difficult to detect leaving no evidence other than victim reports or complaints. This characteristically lowers a person?s self-esteem or causes them torment. This can take the form of verbal comments, engineered episodes of intimidation, aggressive actions or repeated gestures. Falling into this category is workplace harassment by individuals or groups mobbing.
Community-based Harassment ? stalking by a group against an individual using repeated distractions that the individual is sensitized to. Media reports of large numbers of coordinated groups stalking individual stalking victims, including a press interview given by an active duty police lieutenant, have described this community-based harassment as gang stalking.

[HEADING=2]Sexual harassment[/HEADING]
Harassment that can happen anywhere but is most common in the workplace, and schools. It involves unwanted and unwelcome words, deeds, actions, gestures, symbols, or behaviours of a sexual nature that make the target feel uncomfortable. Gender and sexual orientation harassment fall into this family. Involving children, "gay" or "homo" is a common insult falling into this category. The main focus of groups working against sexual harassment is protection for women, but protection for men is coming to light in recent years.

Source. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harassment]

Hon, I'm not talking about legislation. I didn't say, "That's freedom of speech," as in the first amendment to the American Constitution. I said, "I cannot view the freedom of speech as less important than your want to not be offended," as in I view the freedom people have to say what they want on an online game to be more important than others not wanting to be offended.

It's a pity you didn't define harassment using a legal dictionary.

harassment (either harris-meant or huh-rass-meant) n. the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands. The purposes may vary, including racial prejudice, personal malice, an attempt to force someone to quit a job or grant sexual favors, apply illegal pressure to collect a bill, or merely gain sadistic pleasure from making someone fearful or anxious. Such activities may be the basis for a lawsuit if due to discrimination based on race or sex, a violation on the statutory limitations on collection agencies, involve revenge by an ex-spouse, or be shown to be a form of blackmail ("I'll stop bothering you, if you'll go to bed with me"). The victim may file a petition for a "stay away" (restraining) order, intended to prevent contact by the offensive party. A systematic pattern of harassment by an employee against another worker may subject the employer to a lawsuit for failure to protect the worker.

Saying a few words over an online match is not harassment. If they DO turn it into harassment (you do mention other people stalking you outside matches and other such things; those things would be characterized as harassment), then sure, ban them. But that's not what this is. They're not saying, "Let's ban everyone who harasses others!" It's, "Let's ban people who say "offensive" things."

I see you didn't read your definition.

harassment (either harris-meant or huh-rass-meant) n. the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands. The purposes may vary, including racial prejudice, personal malice, an attempt to force someone to quit a job or grant sexual favors, apply illegal pressure to collect a bill, or merely gain sadistic pleasure from making someone fearful or anxious.Such activities may be the basis for a lawsuit if due to discrimination based on race or sex, a violation on the statutory limitations on collection agencies, involve revenge by an ex-spouse, or be shown to be a form of blackmail ("I'll stop bothering you, if you'll go to bed with me"). The victim may file a petition for a "stay away" (restraining) order, intended to prevent contact by the offensive party. A systematic pattern of harassment by an employee against another worker may subject the employer to a lawsuit for failure to protect the worker.

I'd say what goes on pretty much amounts to harassment, I have had people systematically harassment to get back in the kitchen or send them photos of myself, including making new accounts to get around blocks and bans. Its pretty much reduced my xBox to nothing but an expensive dust collector because the shit that goes on. I've had entire clans gather around harassing me (including sending photos of themselves naked to me) because I had the audacity to play online and not be a guy. The more tools I have at my disposal to deal with such fuckwits, the better.

As a matter of fact, I did. That's why I posted it. You seem to be equating someone telling you to get back in the kitchen with systematic harassment. I'm arguing that trivializes ACTUAL harassment. Yes, by all means, ban people who harass others in that way. But this is more than that. This isn't banning people who harass others, but banning people who make remarks that others view as offensive. They're different things.

And 343 studios should tollerate those kinds of remarks? Also, what's wrong with raising the level of discourse, even if the method is draconian. The level of casual sexism and misogyny is so wide spread and entrenched that it will take some drastic measures to change it.

Because the method is draconian and overbearing. You're not fighting harassment. You're fighting people's ability to say things that you find offensive. They're totally different. End harassment. That's all.

snip

I would think that the fact that it is a constant problem on Xbox Live, to the point where some women don't want to plug their mikes in out of fear of having to deal with it, it constitutes as continued and systematic. Pretty sure that the people that do this do it to just about every woman that they meet online, and in the process make said woman feel very uncomfortable. It's not expressing freedom of speech, it's not expressing your opinion, it's being malicious for no good reason. It's disgusting and as far as I'm concerned it deserves to be stamped out.

Just because it's disgusting doesn't mean it's not speech or someone's opinion. Harassment cannot be defined as such, because harassment is about one or more persons, well, harassing another person. If you're not actually being harassed personally, you can't say that you've been harassed, because you haven't. It's like if I said I'm being harassed when someone across the street calls the gay kid next door "******" because I'm not straight.

When it becomes harassment, deal with it, sure. But don't institute a zero tolerance policy for any discriminatory remarks, because that's not just fighting harassment. That's overkill, and it has real consequences.

No offense, but I don't buy that "it's not harassment if it wasn't personal" argument. Like many women on this thread have pointed out, they've been put off playing on XBL or plugging in their mikes because of the crap that's been going on. And the thing is that is still harassment. It's not you that's getting harassed, but the thing is it's still harassment and shouldn't be allowed.

Harassment is personal by definition. You cannot be harassed if no action is taken against you. I don't live in the south because they create an environment that is negative towards homosexuals. Do I say that they're harassing me? No. They're not harassing me. They're harassing other people, sure. But not me.

 

[Erttheking]

I once called someone on a tribes ascend custom server a **** for locking the vehicle station, turns out she was a girl and i got banned from the server for sexism.

Hey, it was a custom server. Different standards from what a professional company would have.

Yes but still it could just as easily have happened on an official server.

Not really. I think it would be pretty clear if you were being sexist towards a girl in Halo matchmaking or not.

 

[Erttheking]

snip

I'm not sure how that argument is supposed to help your case. You basically said "they're doing something bad, but not to me, so why should I care?" If people are being harassed on XBL, it should be stopped, I don't care who it happens to.

 

[AnarchistAbe]

And if they use the in game chat to do the same thing? This is about getting rid of the casual sexism and misogyny that lives in the community, and yes the measures are drastic, but the culture is really entrenched, and nothing short of nuking it from orbit is sure enough to work.

The difference here being that there are other games to go to that DO tolerate it. Ban all you want on HALO, but if I'm playing CoD it's not an issue for the developers. In order to eradicate a behavior, it has to be universal.

 

[Rainboq]

So basically "your rights end where my feelings begin"? Since when did game producers have a say in what people do on Xbox live.

Don't be obtuse. This isn't about my poor widdle fee-fees. This is about the fact that XBL has such a systemic culture of hate that folks like me literally don't want to go anywhere near it. It doesn't matter how much I love a game and want to be part of its online community-- I am not going to go into an environment that is unsafe and abusive. I don't need your sexist, homophobia, racist bullshit in my escapist past time.

To be honest, if most Halo 4 gamers end up permabanned for this, then good. It's a long time coming. If you cannot play a game and trash talk without coloring your language with hate speech, thereby breaching the terms of conduct, then you deserve to be banned.

This is a small step to making games more inclusive and I'm thrilled about it. Maybe my 360 will stop collecting dust on my shelf.

So it IS my poor little fee-fees. If you say something over the internet I find offensive while playing a video game with me, you don't deserve to play that video game online. I'm sorry, but I cannot view the freedom of speech as less important than your want to not be offended.
You are not "unsafe". It's an online video game. Someone telling you to get back in the kitchen is not abuse. This will not make games more inclusive, but turn people off, because if there is one thing that gamers love, it's people trying to control their speech. You may not like others' "sexist, homophobic, racist bullshit," but I don't like your overeactionary, thin-skinned, oppressive bullshit. Does that mean that you no longer get to play Halo online?

That's freedom of speech

I'm sorry, but not all of us live in 'merica [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWS-FoXbjVI]. In Canada, we have laws the put exceptions for hate speech in our freedom of speech legislation. Also, it is harrasment.

Lets define our terms, shall we?

[HEADING=2]Psychological harassment[/HEADING]
This is humiliating, intimidating or abusive behaviour which is often difficult to detect leaving no evidence other than victim reports or complaints. This characteristically lowers a person?s self-esteem or causes them torment. This can take the form of verbal comments, engineered episodes of intimidation, aggressive actions or repeated gestures. Falling into this category is workplace harassment by individuals or groups mobbing.
Community-based Harassment ? stalking by a group against an individual using repeated distractions that the individual is sensitized to. Media reports of large numbers of coordinated groups stalking individual stalking victims, including a press interview given by an active duty police lieutenant, have described this community-based harassment as gang stalking.

[HEADING=2]Sexual harassment[/HEADING]
Harassment that can happen anywhere but is most common in the workplace, and schools. It involves unwanted and unwelcome words, deeds, actions, gestures, symbols, or behaviours of a sexual nature that make the target feel uncomfortable. Gender and sexual orientation harassment fall into this family. Involving children, "gay" or "homo" is a common insult falling into this category. The main focus of groups working against sexual harassment is protection for women, but protection for men is coming to light in recent years.

Source. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harassment]

Hon, I'm not talking about legislation. I didn't say, "That's freedom of speech," as in the first amendment to the American Constitution. I said, "I cannot view the freedom of speech as less important than your want to not be offended," as in I view the freedom people have to say what they want on an online game to be more important than others not wanting to be offended.

It's a pity you didn't define harassment using a legal dictionary.

harassment (either harris-meant or huh-rass-meant) n. the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands. The purposes may vary, including racial prejudice, personal malice, an attempt to force someone to quit a job or grant sexual favors, apply illegal pressure to collect a bill, or merely gain sadistic pleasure from making someone fearful or anxious. Such activities may be the basis for a lawsuit if due to discrimination based on race or sex, a violation on the statutory limitations on collection agencies, involve revenge by an ex-spouse, or be shown to be a form of blackmail ("I'll stop bothering you, if you'll go to bed with me"). The victim may file a petition for a "stay away" (restraining) order, intended to prevent contact by the offensive party. A systematic pattern of harassment by an employee against another worker may subject the employer to a lawsuit for failure to protect the worker.

Saying a few words over an online match is not harassment. If they DO turn it into harassment (you do mention other people stalking you outside matches and other such things; those things would be characterized as harassment), then sure, ban them. But that's not what this is. They're not saying, "Let's ban everyone who harasses others!" It's, "Let's ban people who say "offensive" things."

I see you didn't read your definition.

harassment (either harris-meant or huh-rass-meant) n. the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands. The purposes may vary, including racial prejudice, personal malice, an attempt to force someone to quit a job or grant sexual favors, apply illegal pressure to collect a bill, or merely gain sadistic pleasure from making someone fearful or anxious.Such activities may be the basis for a lawsuit if due to discrimination based on race or sex, a violation on the statutory limitations on collection agencies, involve revenge by an ex-spouse, or be shown to be a form of blackmail ("I'll stop bothering you, if you'll go to bed with me"). The victim may file a petition for a "stay away" (restraining) order, intended to prevent contact by the offensive party. A systematic pattern of harassment by an employee against another worker may subject the employer to a lawsuit for failure to protect the worker.

I'd say what goes on pretty much amounts to harassment, I have had people systematically harassment to get back in the kitchen or send them photos of myself, including making new accounts to get around blocks and bans. Its pretty much reduced my xBox to nothing but an expensive dust collector because the shit that goes on. I've had entire clans gather around harassing me (including sending photos of themselves naked to me) because I had the audacity to play online and not be a guy. The more tools I have at my disposal to deal with such fuckwits, the better.

As a matter of fact, I did. That's why I posted it. You seem to be equating someone telling you to get back in the kitchen with systematic harassment. I'm arguing that trivializes ACTUAL harassment. Yes, by all means, ban people who harass others in that way. But this is more than that. This isn't banning people who harass others, but banning people who make remarks that others view as offensive. They're different things.

And 343 studios should tollerate those kinds of remarks? Also, what's wrong with raising the level of discourse, even if the method is draconian. The level of casual sexism and misogyny is so wide spread and entrenched that it will take some drastic measures to change it.

Because the method is draconian and overbearing. You're not fighting harassment. You're fighting people's ability to say things that you find offensive. They're totally different. End harassment. That's all.

snip

I would think that the fact that it is a constant problem on Xbox Live, to the point where some women don't want to plug their mikes in out of fear of having to deal with it, it constitutes as continued and systematic. Pretty sure that the people that do this do it to just about every woman that they meet online, and in the process make said woman feel very uncomfortable. It's not expressing freedom of speech, it's not expressing your opinion, it's being malicious for no good reason. It's disgusting and as far as I'm concerned it deserves to be stamped out.

Just because it's disgusting doesn't mean it's not speech or someone's opinion. Harassment cannot be defined as such, because harassment is about one or more persons, well, harassing another person. If you're not actually being harassed personally, you can't say that you've been harassed, because you haven't. It's like if I said I'm being harassed when someone across the street calls the gay kid next door "******" because I'm not straight.

When it becomes harassment, deal with it, sure. But don't institute a zero tolerance policy for any discriminatory remarks, because that's not just fighting harassment. That's overkill, and it has real consequences.

No offense, but I don't buy that "it's not harassment if it wasn't personal" argument. Like many women on this thread have pointed out, they've been put off playing on XBL or plugging in their mikes because of the crap that's been going on. And the thing is that is still harassment. It's not you that's getting harassed, but the thing is it's still harassment and shouldn't be allowed.

Harassment is personal by definition. You cannot be harassed if no action is taken against you. I don't live in the south because they create an environment that is negative towards homosexuals. Do I say that they're harassing me? No. They're not harassing me. They're harassing other people, sure. But not me.

Harrassment or not, why should we allow such statements to be said without punishment, draconian or not?

 

[Rainboq]

And if they use the in game chat to do the same thing? This is about getting rid of the casual sexism and misogyny that lives in the community, and yes the measures are drastic, but the culture is really entrenched, and nothing short of nuking it from orbit is sure enough to work.

The difference here being that there are other games to go to that DO tolerate it. Ban all you want on HALO, but if I'm playing CoD it's not an issue for the developers. In order to eradicate a behavior, it has to be universal.

Given that infinity ward is a studio that employs predominatantly or even solely men, it's lower down or entirely off IW's radar, plus the culture there is fucking toxic towards women, I know, I got a co-op job there for a semester.

 

[Genocidicles]

Male gamers as a whole don't get it. It is not one or two instances of people "being dicks." It's every single time you open you mouth in a gaming environment while in possession of a feminine username or voice. It's constant abuse. it's people remembering your username and following you out of the match and telling all their buddies. It's never, ever about the game, it's about the fact that you are a lady and you don't belong here, so we will harass you until you leave.

It is not about sensitivity, it's about abuse.

And it needs to stop.

Well there is an option to auto mute everyone except people on your friend list.

What's so difficult about using that?

 

[Bashfluff]

So basically "your rights end where my feelings begin"? Since when did game producers have a say in what people do on Xbox live.

Don't be obtuse. This isn't about my poor widdle fee-fees. This is about the fact that XBL has such a systemic culture of hate that folks like me literally don't want to go anywhere near it. It doesn't matter how much I love a game and want to be part of its online community-- I am not going to go into an environment that is unsafe and abusive. I don't need your sexist, homophobia, racist bullshit in my escapist past time.

To be honest, if most Halo 4 gamers end up permabanned for this, then good. It's a long time coming. If you cannot play a game and trash talk without coloring your language with hate speech, thereby breaching the terms of conduct, then you deserve to be banned.

This is a small step to making games more inclusive and I'm thrilled about it. Maybe my 360 will stop collecting dust on my shelf.

So it IS my poor little fee-fees. If you say something over the internet I find offensive while playing a video game with me, you don't deserve to play that video game online. I'm sorry, but I cannot view the freedom of speech as less important than your want to not be offended.
You are not "unsafe". It's an online video game. Someone telling you to get back in the kitchen is not abuse. This will not make games more inclusive, but turn people off, because if there is one thing that gamers love, it's people trying to control their speech. You may not like others' "sexist, homophobic, racist bullshit," but I don't like your overeactionary, thin-skinned, oppressive bullshit. Does that mean that you no longer get to play Halo online?

That's freedom of speech

I'm sorry, but not all of us live in 'merica [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWS-FoXbjVI]. In Canada, we have laws the put exceptions for hate speech in our freedom of speech legislation. Also, it is harrasment.

Lets define our terms, shall we?

[HEADING=2]Psychological harassment[/HEADING]
This is humiliating, intimidating or abusive behaviour which is often difficult to detect leaving no evidence other than victim reports or complaints. This characteristically lowers a person?s self-esteem or causes them torment. This can take the form of verbal comments, engineered episodes of intimidation, aggressive actions or repeated gestures. Falling into this category is workplace harassment by individuals or groups mobbing.
Community-based Harassment ? stalking by a group against an individual using repeated distractions that the individual is sensitized to. Media reports of large numbers of coordinated groups stalking individual stalking victims, including a press interview given by an active duty police lieutenant, have described this community-based harassment as gang stalking.

[HEADING=2]Sexual harassment[/HEADING]
Harassment that can happen anywhere but is most common in the workplace, and schools. It involves unwanted and unwelcome words, deeds, actions, gestures, symbols, or behaviours of a sexual nature that make the target feel uncomfortable. Gender and sexual orientation harassment fall into this family. Involving children, "gay" or "homo" is a common insult falling into this category. The main focus of groups working against sexual harassment is protection for women, but protection for men is coming to light in recent years.

Source. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harassment]

Hon, I'm not talking about legislation. I didn't say, "That's freedom of speech," as in the first amendment to the American Constitution. I said, "I cannot view the freedom of speech as less important than your want to not be offended," as in I view the freedom people have to say what they want on an online game to be more important than others not wanting to be offended.

It's a pity you didn't define harassment using a legal dictionary.

harassment (either harris-meant or huh-rass-meant) n. the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands. The purposes may vary, including racial prejudice, personal malice, an attempt to force someone to quit a job or grant sexual favors, apply illegal pressure to collect a bill, or merely gain sadistic pleasure from making someone fearful or anxious. Such activities may be the basis for a lawsuit if due to discrimination based on race or sex, a violation on the statutory limitations on collection agencies, involve revenge by an ex-spouse, or be shown to be a form of blackmail ("I'll stop bothering you, if you'll go to bed with me"). The victim may file a petition for a "stay away" (restraining) order, intended to prevent contact by the offensive party. A systematic pattern of harassment by an employee against another worker may subject the employer to a lawsuit for failure to protect the worker.

Saying a few words over an online match is not harassment. If they DO turn it into harassment (you do mention other people stalking you outside matches and other such things; those things would be characterized as harassment), then sure, ban them. But that's not what this is. They're not saying, "Let's ban everyone who harasses others!" It's, "Let's ban people who say "offensive" things."

I see you didn't read your definition.

harassment (either harris-meant or huh-rass-meant) n. the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands. The purposes may vary, including racial prejudice, personal malice, an attempt to force someone to quit a job or grant sexual favors, apply illegal pressure to collect a bill, or merely gain sadistic pleasure from making someone fearful or anxious.Such activities may be the basis for a lawsuit if due to discrimination based on race or sex, a violation on the statutory limitations on collection agencies, involve revenge by an ex-spouse, or be shown to be a form of blackmail ("I'll stop bothering you, if you'll go to bed with me"). The victim may file a petition for a "stay away" (restraining) order, intended to prevent contact by the offensive party. A systematic pattern of harassment by an employee against another worker may subject the employer to a lawsuit for failure to protect the worker.

I'd say what goes on pretty much amounts to harassment, I have had people systematically harassment to get back in the kitchen or send them photos of myself, including making new accounts to get around blocks and bans. Its pretty much reduced my xBox to nothing but an expensive dust collector because the shit that goes on. I've had entire clans gather around harassing me (including sending photos of themselves naked to me) because I had the audacity to play online and not be a guy. The more tools I have at my disposal to deal with such fuckwits, the better.

As a matter of fact, I did. That's why I posted it. You seem to be equating someone telling you to get back in the kitchen with systematic harassment. I'm arguing that trivializes ACTUAL harassment. Yes, by all means, ban people who harass others in that way. But this is more than that. This isn't banning people who harass others, but banning people who make remarks that others view as offensive. They're different things.

And 343 studios should tollerate those kinds of remarks? Also, what's wrong with raising the level of discourse, even if the method is draconian. The level of casual sexism and misogyny is so wide spread and entrenched that it will take some drastic measures to change it.

Because the method is draconian and overbearing. You're not fighting harassment. You're fighting people's ability to say things that you find offensive. They're totally different. End harassment. That's all.

snip

I would think that the fact that it is a constant problem on Xbox Live, to the point where some women don't want to plug their mikes in out of fear of having to deal with it, it constitutes as continued and systematic. Pretty sure that the people that do this do it to just about every woman that they meet online, and in the process make said woman feel very uncomfortable. It's not expressing freedom of speech, it's not expressing your opinion, it's being malicious for no good reason. It's disgusting and as far as I'm concerned it deserves to be stamped out.

Just because it's disgusting doesn't mean it's not speech or someone's opinion. Harassment cannot be defined as such, because harassment is about one or more persons, well, harassing another person. If you're not actually being harassed personally, you can't say that you've been harassed, because you haven't. It's like if I said I'm being harassed when someone across the street calls the gay kid next door "******" because I'm not straight.

When it becomes harassment, deal with it, sure. But don't institute a zero tolerance policy for any discriminatory remarks, because that's not just fighting harassment. That's overkill, and it has real consequences.

No offense, but I don't buy that "it's not harassment if it wasn't personal" argument. Like many women on this thread have pointed out, they've been put off playing on XBL or plugging in their mikes because of the crap that's been going on. And the thing is that is still harassment. It's not you that's getting harassed, but the thing is it's still harassment and shouldn't be allowed.

Harassment is personal by definition. You cannot be harassed if no action is taken against you. I don't live in the south because they create an environment that is negative towards homosexuals. Do I say that they're harassing me? No. They're not harassing me. They're harassing other people, sure. But not me.

Harrassment or not, why should we allow such statements to be said without punishment, draconian or not?

Do you want to ban all insults from Xbox live? Offensive is subjective, dear. What offends you may not offend me, and vice versa. Here in America, we value the right to say whatever it is you want, and that it's most important to defend those who say things you don't care for. I would rather have a society with the freedom of speech than one that panders to the offended.

snip

I'm not sure how that argument is supposed to help your case. You basically said "they're doing something bad, but not to me, so why should I care?" If people are being harassed on XBL, it should be stopped, I don't care who it happens to.

No. I'm saying that YOU are not being harassed, and it's wrong to say you are. You can say, "This group is being harassed," but not, "I'm being harassed." I outright state that harassment should be a ban-worthy offensive. Read my posts.

 

[Erttheking]

Male gamers as a whole don't get it. It is not one or two instances of people "being dicks." It's every single time you open you mouth in a gaming environment while in possession of a feminine username or voice. It's constant abuse. it's people remembering your username and following you out of the match and telling all their buddies. It's never, ever about the game, it's about the fact that you are a lady and you don't belong here, so we will harass you until you leave.

It is not about sensitivity, it's about abuse.

And it needs to stop.

Well there is an option to auto mute everyone except people on your friend list.

What's so difficult about using that?

Here's the problem, people want to be able to go into all of XBL without either A. have to take special measures to be safe and limiting themselves to talking to people they already know, or B. Try to meet new people over XBL in addition to trying to communicate with your teammates. and run the risk of running into assholes. It's a bit of a pickle.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

If one person is getting harassed, they should get banned, but I view the overall condition of xbox live, IE, someone jumping on someone else for being a woman and insulting them for it on a regular basis, as harassment. It doesn't matter who they're specifically harassing or if one person that they weren't directly harassing shouldn't feel offended, it doesn't matter, they deserve a perma ban

 

[ShirowShirow]

Well there is an option to auto mute everyone except people on your friend list.

What's so difficult about using that?

Putting the pressure on the victim instead of the asshole. Stopping people from meeting online friends in the first place. Forcing intelligent and nice people into hiding. Not doing anything to fix the image of gaming culture. Severely messing with people that want to legitimately strategize with teammates.

I could go on.

The idea that people have issues with the idea of punishing assholes causes me much bewilderment.

 

[EvilRoy]

So basically "your rights end where my feelings begin"? Since when did game producers have a say in what people do on Xbox live.

Don't be obtuse. This isn't about my poor widdle fee-fees. This is about the fact that XBL has such a systemic culture of hate that folks like me literally don't want to go anywhere near it. It doesn't matter how much I love a game and want to be part of its online community-- I am not going to go into an environment that is unsafe and abusive. I don't need your sexist, homophobia, racist bullshit in my escapist past time.

To be honest, if most Halo 4 gamers end up permabanned for this, then good. It's a long time coming. If you cannot play a game and trash talk without coloring your language with hate speech, thereby breaching the terms of conduct, then you deserve to be banned.

This is a small step to making games more inclusive and I'm thrilled about it. Maybe my 360 will stop collecting dust on my shelf.

So it IS my poor little fee-fees. If you say something over the internet I find offensive while playing a video game with me, you don't deserve to play that video game online. I'm sorry, but I cannot view the freedom of speech as less important than your want to not be offended.
You are not "unsafe". It's an online video game. Someone telling you to get back in the kitchen is not abuse. This will not make games more inclusive, but turn people off, because if there is one thing that gamers love, it's people trying to control their speech. You may not like others' "sexist, homophobic, racist bullshit," but I don't like your overeactionary, thin-skinned, oppressive bullshit. Does that mean that you no longer get to play Halo online?

That's freedom of speech

I'm sorry, but not all of us live in 'merica [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWS-FoXbjVI]. In Canada, we have laws the put exceptions for hate speech in our freedom of speech legislation. Also, it is harrasment.

Lets define our terms, shall we?

[HEADING=2]Psychological harassment[/HEADING]
This is humiliating, intimidating or abusive behaviour which is often difficult to detect leaving no evidence other than victim reports or complaints. This characteristically lowers a person?s self-esteem or causes them torment. This can take the form of verbal comments, engineered episodes of intimidation, aggressive actions or repeated gestures. Falling into this category is workplace harassment by individuals or groups mobbing.
Community-based Harassment ? stalking by a group against an individual using repeated distractions that the individual is sensitized to. Media reports of large numbers of coordinated groups stalking individual stalking victims, including a press interview given by an active duty police lieutenant, have described this community-based harassment as gang stalking.

[HEADING=2]Sexual harassment[/HEADING]
Harassment that can happen anywhere but is most common in the workplace, and schools. It involves unwanted and unwelcome words, deeds, actions, gestures, symbols, or behaviours of a sexual nature that make the target feel uncomfortable. Gender and sexual orientation harassment fall into this family. Involving children, "gay" or "homo" is a common insult falling into this category. The main focus of groups working against sexual harassment is protection for women, but protection for men is coming to light in recent years.

Source. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harassment]

Hon, I'm not talking about legislation. I didn't say, "That's freedom of speech," as in the first amendment to the American Constitution. I said, "I cannot view the freedom of speech as less important than your want to not be offended," as in I view the freedom people have to say what they want on an online game to be more important than others not wanting to be offended.

It's a pity you didn't define harassment using a legal dictionary.

harassment (either harris-meant or huh-rass-meant) n. the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands. The purposes may vary, including racial prejudice, personal malice, an attempt to force someone to quit a job or grant sexual favors, apply illegal pressure to collect a bill, or merely gain sadistic pleasure from making someone fearful or anxious. Such activities may be the basis for a lawsuit if due to discrimination based on race or sex, a violation on the statutory limitations on collection agencies, involve revenge by an ex-spouse, or be shown to be a form of blackmail ("I'll stop bothering you, if you'll go to bed with me"). The victim may file a petition for a "stay away" (restraining) order, intended to prevent contact by the offensive party. A systematic pattern of harassment by an employee against another worker may subject the employer to a lawsuit for failure to protect the worker.

Saying a few words over an online match is not harassment. If they DO turn it into harassment (you do mention other people stalking you outside matches and other such things; those things would be characterized as harassment), then sure, ban them. But that's not what this is. They're not saying, "Let's ban everyone who harasses others!" It's, "Let's ban people who say "offensive" things."

I see you didn't read your definition.

harassment (either harris-meant or huh-rass-meant) n. the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands. The purposes may vary, including racial prejudice, personal malice, an attempt to force someone to quit a job or grant sexual favors, apply illegal pressure to collect a bill, or merely gain sadistic pleasure from making someone fearful or anxious.Such activities may be the basis for a lawsuit if due to discrimination based on race or sex, a violation on the statutory limitations on collection agencies, involve revenge by an ex-spouse, or be shown to be a form of blackmail ("I'll stop bothering you, if you'll go to bed with me"). The victim may file a petition for a "stay away" (restraining) order, intended to prevent contact by the offensive party. A systematic pattern of harassment by an employee against another worker may subject the employer to a lawsuit for failure to protect the worker.

I'd say what goes on pretty much amounts to harassment, I have had people systematically harassment to get back in the kitchen or send them photos of myself, including making new accounts to get around blocks and bans. Its pretty much reduced my xBox to nothing but an expensive dust collector because the shit that goes on. I've had entire clans gather around harassing me (including sending photos of themselves naked to me) because I had the audacity to play online and not be a guy. The more tools I have at my disposal to deal with such fuckwits, the better.

As a matter of fact, I did. That's why I posted it. You seem to be equating someone telling you to get back in the kitchen with systematic harassment. I'm arguing that trivializes ACTUAL harassment. Yes, by all means, ban people who harass others in that way. But this is more than that. This isn't banning people who harass others, but banning people who make remarks that others view as offensive. They're different things.

And 343 studios should tollerate those kinds of remarks? Also, what's wrong with raising the level of discourse, even if the method is draconian. The level of casual sexism and misogyny is so wide spread and entrenched that it will take some drastic measures to change it.

Because the method is draconian and overbearing. You're not fighting harassment. You're fighting people's ability to say things that you find offensive. They're totally different. End harassment. That's all.

That's not really how that works though. You aren't fighting someones ability to say what they want (offensive or otherwise), you are fighting someones ability to say what they want without consequence.

You can still totally be racist and sexist all over the place, that's freedom of speech. However, if you say something that the person hosting the party doesn't like, and you checked a box and pressed continue before walking into that party, well I'm afraid the person hosting the party has every right to take whatever corrective measures he sees fit.

It's actually kind of cool, this works outside in real life too. There exists legal precedent that allows a person to post what amounts to a code of conduct, the same as the escapists or microsofts, in a place of business. That's why you can get your ass leveled by bouncers at a bar or a concert for doing anything they don't like, from starting fights to bothering girls to wearing your hat backwards, and you have minimal legal recourse.

 

[Rainboq]

So basically "your rights end where my feelings begin"? Since when did game producers have a say in what people do on Xbox live.

Don't be obtuse. This isn't about my poor widdle fee-fees. This is about the fact that XBL has such a systemic culture of hate that folks like me literally don't want to go anywhere near it. It doesn't matter how much I love a game and want to be part of its online community-- I am not going to go into an environment that is unsafe and abusive. I don't need your sexist, homophobia, racist bullshit in my escapist past time.

To be honest, if most Halo 4 gamers end up permabanned for this, then good. It's a long time coming. If you cannot play a game and trash talk without coloring your language with hate speech, thereby breaching the terms of conduct, then you deserve to be banned.

This is a small step to making games more inclusive and I'm thrilled about it. Maybe my 360 will stop collecting dust on my shelf.

So it IS my poor little fee-fees. If you say something over the internet I find offensive while playing a video game with me, you don't deserve to play that video game online. I'm sorry, but I cannot view the freedom of speech as less important than your want to not be offended.
You are not "unsafe". It's an online video game. Someone telling you to get back in the kitchen is not abuse. This will not make games more inclusive, but turn people off, because if there is one thing that gamers love, it's people trying to control their speech. You may not like others' "sexist, homophobic, racist bullshit," but I don't like your overeactionary, thin-skinned, oppressive bullshit. Does that mean that you no longer get to play Halo online?

That's freedom of speech

I'm sorry, but not all of us live in 'merica [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWS-FoXbjVI]. In Canada, we have laws the put exceptions for hate speech in our freedom of speech legislation. Also, it is harrasment.

Lets define our terms, shall we?

[HEADING=2]Psychological harassment[/HEADING]
This is humiliating, intimidating or abusive behaviour which is often difficult to detect leaving no evidence other than victim reports or complaints. This characteristically lowers a person?s self-esteem or causes them torment. This can take the form of verbal comments, engineered episodes of intimidation, aggressive actions or repeated gestures. Falling into this category is workplace harassment by individuals or groups mobbing.
Community-based Harassment ? stalking by a group against an individual using repeated distractions that the individual is sensitized to. Media reports of large numbers of coordinated groups stalking individual stalking victims, including a press interview given by an active duty police lieutenant, have described this community-based harassment as gang stalking.

[HEADING=2]Sexual harassment[/HEADING]
Harassment that can happen anywhere but is most common in the workplace, and schools. It involves unwanted and unwelcome words, deeds, actions, gestures, symbols, or behaviours of a sexual nature that make the target feel uncomfortable. Gender and sexual orientation harassment fall into this family. Involving children, "gay" or "homo" is a common insult falling into this category. The main focus of groups working against sexual harassment is protection for women, but protection for men is coming to light in recent years.

Source. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harassment]

Hon, I'm not talking about legislation. I didn't say, "That's freedom of speech," as in the first amendment to the American Constitution. I said, "I cannot view the freedom of speech as less important than your want to not be offended," as in I view the freedom people have to say what they want on an online game to be more important than others not wanting to be offended.

It's a pity you didn't define harassment using a legal dictionary.

harassment (either harris-meant or huh-rass-meant) n. the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands. The purposes may vary, including racial prejudice, personal malice, an attempt to force someone to quit a job or grant sexual favors, apply illegal pressure to collect a bill, or merely gain sadistic pleasure from making someone fearful or anxious. Such activities may be the basis for a lawsuit if due to discrimination based on race or sex, a violation on the statutory limitations on collection agencies, involve revenge by an ex-spouse, or be shown to be a form of blackmail ("I'll stop bothering you, if you'll go to bed with me"). The victim may file a petition for a "stay away" (restraining) order, intended to prevent contact by the offensive party. A systematic pattern of harassment by an employee against another worker may subject the employer to a lawsuit for failure to protect the worker.

Saying a few words over an online match is not harassment. If they DO turn it into harassment (you do mention other people stalking you outside matches and other such things; those things would be characterized as harassment), then sure, ban them. But that's not what this is. They're not saying, "Let's ban everyone who harasses others!" It's, "Let's ban people who say "offensive" things."

I see you didn't read your definition.

harassment (either harris-meant or huh-rass-meant) n. the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands. The purposes may vary, including racial prejudice, personal malice, an attempt to force someone to quit a job or grant sexual favors, apply illegal pressure to collect a bill, or merely gain sadistic pleasure from making someone fearful or anxious.Such activities may be the basis for a lawsuit if due to discrimination based on race or sex, a violation on the statutory limitations on collection agencies, involve revenge by an ex-spouse, or be shown to be a form of blackmail ("I'll stop bothering you, if you'll go to bed with me"). The victim may file a petition for a "stay away" (restraining) order, intended to prevent contact by the offensive party. A systematic pattern of harassment by an employee against another worker may subject the employer to a lawsuit for failure to protect the worker.

I'd say what goes on pretty much amounts to harassment, I have had people systematically harassment to get back in the kitchen or send them photos of myself, including making new accounts to get around blocks and bans. Its pretty much reduced my xBox to nothing but an expensive dust collector because the shit that goes on. I've had entire clans gather around harassing me (including sending photos of themselves naked to me) because I had the audacity to play online and not be a guy. The more tools I have at my disposal to deal with such fuckwits, the better.

As a matter of fact, I did. That's why I posted it. You seem to be equating someone telling you to get back in the kitchen with systematic harassment. I'm arguing that trivializes ACTUAL harassment. Yes, by all means, ban people who harass others in that way. But this is more than that. This isn't banning people who harass others, but banning people who make remarks that others view as offensive. They're different things.

And 343 studios should tollerate those kinds of remarks? Also, what's wrong with raising the level of discourse, even if the method is draconian. The level of casual sexism and misogyny is so wide spread and entrenched that it will take some drastic measures to change it.

Because the method is draconian and overbearing. You're not fighting harassment. You're fighting people's ability to say things that you find offensive. They're totally different. End harassment. That's all.

snip

I would think that the fact that it is a constant problem on Xbox Live, to the point where some women don't want to plug their mikes in out of fear of having to deal with it, it constitutes as continued and systematic. Pretty sure that the people that do this do it to just about every woman that they meet online, and in the process make said woman feel very uncomfortable. It's not expressing freedom of speech, it's not expressing your opinion, it's being malicious for no good reason. It's disgusting and as far as I'm concerned it deserves to be stamped out.

Just because it's disgusting doesn't mean it's not speech or someone's opinion. Harassment cannot be defined as such, because harassment is about one or more persons, well, harassing another person. If you're not actually being harassed personally, you can't say that you've been harassed, because you haven't. It's like if I said I'm being harassed when someone across the street calls the gay kid next door "******" because I'm not straight.

When it becomes harassment, deal with it, sure. But don't institute a zero tolerance policy for any discriminatory remarks, because that's not just fighting harassment. That's overkill, and it has real consequences.

No offense, but I don't buy that "it's not harassment if it wasn't personal" argument. Like many women on this thread have pointed out, they've been put off playing on XBL or plugging in their mikes because of the crap that's been going on. And the thing is that is still harassment. It's not you that's getting harassed, but the thing is it's still harassment and shouldn't be allowed.

Harassment is personal by definition. You cannot be harassed if no action is taken against you. I don't live in the south because they create an environment that is negative towards homosexuals. Do I say that they're harassing me? No. They're not harassing me. They're harassing other people, sure. But not me.

Harrassment or not, why should we allow such statements to be said without punishment, draconian or not?

Do you want to ban all insults from Xbox live? Offensive is subjective, dear. What offends you may not offend me, and vice versa. Here in America, we value the right to say whatever it is you want, and that it's most important to defend those who say things you don't care for. I would rather have a society with the freedom of speech than one that panders to the offended.

snip

I'm not sure how that argument is supposed to help your case. You basically said "they're doing something bad, but not to me, so why should I care?" If people are being harassed on XBL, it should be stopped, I don't care who it happens to.

No. I'm saying that YOU are not being harassed, and it's wrong to say you are. You can say, "This group is being harassed," but not, "I'm being harassed." I outright state that harassment should be a ban-worthy offensive. Read my posts.

Guess what, I don't live in the states. In Canada freedom of speech is revoked if the speech is hateful (including sexist remarks). Additionally, why should we tolerate sexism, or homophobia?

 

[Norix596]

Kiki Wolfkill needs to be the name of the next female action game protagonist.

 

[Genocidicles]

Here's the problem, people want to be able to go into all of XBL without either A. have to take special measures to be safe and limiting themselves to talking to people they already know, or B. Try to meet new people over XBL in addition to trying to communicate with your teammates. and run the risk of running into assholes. It's a bit of a pickle.

Well these new rules are hardly going to change anything except maybe the insults being thrown around.

Instead of them calling women "Goddamn ***** whores who need to stay in the kitchen" they'll just be yelling non-sexist abuse like "Goddamn assholes! I hope you get cancer!"

 

[Brandon Logan]

That's great! I just hope that the racism, homophobia and every other prejudice that shows up when I play online game also results in a perma-ban.

 

[Erttheking]

Here's the problem, people want to be able to go into all of XBL without either A. have to take special measures to be safe and limiting themselves to talking to people they already know, or B. Try to meet new people over XBL in addition to trying to communicate with your teammates. and run the risk of running into assholes. It's a bit of a pickle.

Well these new rules are hardly going to change anything except maybe the insults being thrown around.

Instead of them calling women "Goddamn ***** whores who need to stay in the kitchen" they'll just be yelling non-sexist abuse like "Goddamn assholes! I hope you get cancer!"

Yeah, but the thing is the problem that they're trying to solve is getting people to stop being sexist, IE singling out women for being women and attacking them for it, which is arguably worse because it's getting personal. Stopping people online from being assholes altogether is another battle, and while it is a problem that needs to be addressed, we should probably focus on the smaller and more manageable one first.

To be perfectly honest, I'd call that situation you're describing as a victory.

 

[ShirowShirow]

That's great! I just hope that the racism, homophobia and every other prejudice that shows up when I play online game also results in a perma-ban.

It will. They're just mentioning Sexism in particular because that's currently the most glaring issue.

 

[FreeFallingCups]

Well this is great, I no longer have to worry about Girl Gamers giving me sexist remarks when they kill me then. I support this policy.