Halo 4 Sexism Earns You a Lifetime Ban

[SeanSeanston]

Also, it's a kinda "boys only" mentality that makes the whole sexism thing on XBL a problem to begin with. Remember that little incident with women being banned from the Battlefield 3 party?

Hmm... have to say I don't. Someone mentioned something that seemed to refer to it in a earlier post though. In relation to it being seen as fine to have a female-only party.

On the subject of which... what about that?
Can it be ok to have a party/group/whatever that excludes people based on gender/sexuality/whatever if it's for the purpose of promoting a group of people that have low representation in Activity X?

I mean, I guess I can see both sides, but then why not have an all-male party? In fact, I find it also hard to believe such a party would even be popular among men but w/e XD

For instance, in sports where men and women can compete against each other equally (not too many I guess but w/e) you sometimes have women's leagues presumably because the women's game is much less developed and there are fewer women playing and otherwise there wouldn't be much of a way for the women's game to get better.

It's a confusing business, this.

 

[Erttheking]

Also, it's a kinda "boys only" mentality that makes the whole sexism thing on XBL a problem to begin with. Remember that little incident with women being banned from the Battlefield 3 party?

Hmm... have to say I don't. Someone mentioned something that seemed to refer to it in a earlier post though. In relation to it being fine to have a female-only party.

On the subject of which... what about that?
Can it be ok to have a party/group/whatever that excludes people based on gender/sexuality/whatever if it's for the purpose of promoting a group of people that have low representation in Activity X?

I mean, I guess I can see both sides, but then why not have an all-male party? In fact, I find it also hard to believe such a party would even be popular among men but w/e XD

For instance, in sports where men and women can compete against each other equally (not too many I guess but w/e) you sometimes have women's leagues presumably because the women's game is much less developed and there are fewer women playing and otherwise there wouldn't be much of a way for the women's game to get better.

It's a confusing business, this.

True, but XBL isn't a "boys only" or "girls only" party, and it doesn't have the same physical barrier excuse that most sports have. Really, XBL should be open to all, which is why I'm in favor of this.

 

[Rainboq]

Given that infinity ward is a studio that employs predominatantly or even solely men, it's lower down or entirely off IW's radar, plus the culture there is fucking toxic towards women, I know, I got a co-op job there for a semester.

I'm actually interested. How is the culture there "fucking toxic towards women"? Depending on who's talking and where they're talking about, I've heard that phrase and similar describe anything from "doesn't take special care to accommodate women" to "actively discriminates" to "actively treats women like property"

It was pretty much all of the above, from people heckling me to guys 20 years my senior hitting on me and trying to pull a casting couch on me to being forced to constantly prove that I could even play videogames. There were a few nice guys in the company, but compared to the others co-op students with a Y chromosome, I got all the shitty jobs.

 

[SeanSeanston]

Nah I was just going off on a tangent. It wasn't really meant to be related to XBL.

 

[nacatak]

It's not the word itself that matters, dick and c*** aren't equal insults because they don't have the same weight behind them. You don't call a man a dick because you're trying to oppress him for being a man, you call a man a dick because you think that he's a jackass. C*** on the other hand, while it can be used like dick, has a tendency to be used against women, insulting them for being women. Dick and c*** aren't even close to being equal. Men aren't being oppressed by being called dicks, because that insult isn't meant to be sexist. Women are being oppressed by being called c*** because it is meant to be sexist.

Also, why is it that sexism against men only gets brought up when people are complaining about sexism against women?

And there we have it folks, one is sexist and the other is not because "errtheking" said so. Double standard abolished!

In all seriousness though, why don't you try and figure out WHY they are considered different. Saying "**** is bad because its oppressive" is no more valid than me saying "dick is bad because it's oppressive". Look past the completely subjective "feelings" someone or some people have over word and as I said, try and figure out why they are different.... emotions are not a valid argument, anyone can feel anything, it doesn't mean I should respect it.

 

[verdant monkai]

This would not be an issue for me even if I were sexist as I have had Xboxlive for over 3 years now and have encountered one woman who was using her microphone. Yeah just that one woman, no one else female.

 

[cynicalsaint1]

One wonders what proportion of people crying out against this are straight white dues, trying to tell people that their experiences online aren't actually real, or aren't really a problem. Kind of easy to say that when you're not the target after all ...

Either way Xbox Live isn't a public space its privately own and run buy Microsoft. And Microsoft has decided that having their service be something that anyone can play on regardless of gender/race/sexual preference/whatever and feel comfortable to doing so, out weighs a user's assumed right to spew hate filled speech.

Unfortunately I don't think there really is a good solution to any of this without swinging the banhammer is probably the only thing that even has a chance at getting the message across to the masses.

 

[Erttheking]

It's not the word itself that matters, dick and c*** aren't equal insults because they don't have the same weight behind them. You don't call a man a dick because you're trying to oppress him for being a man, you call a man a dick because you think that he's a jackass. C*** on the other hand, while it can be used like dick, has a tendency to be used against women, insulting them for being women. Dick and c*** aren't even close to being equal. Men aren't being oppressed by being called dicks, because that insult isn't meant to be sexist. Women are being oppressed by being called c*** because it is meant to be sexist.

Also, why is it that sexism against men only gets brought up when people are complaining about sexism against women?

And there we have it folks, one is sexist and the other is not because "errtheking" said so. Double standard abolished!

In all seriousness though, why don't you try and figure out WHY they are considered different. Saying "**** is bad because its oppressive" is no more valid than me saying "dick is bad because it's oppressive". Look past the completely subjective "feelings" someone or some people have over word and as I said, try and figure out why they are different.... emotions are not a valid argument, anyone can feel anything, it doesn't mean I should respect it.

I think you'll be rather hard pressed to find a man who feels like he's being oppressed for being called a dick. It's just the overall state of the culture, it's not "because I say so" it's just common knowledge. I have never seen a single instance of dick being used as a sexist term, but more than a few of c*** being used as a sexist term. It's kind of like f*****, it may be used by others for a different meaning, but it has roots in discrimination, just like c*** does. Dick however, doesn't really have a history of being using as a derogatory insult.

 

[SeanSeanston]

It was pretty much all of the above, from people heckling me to guys 20 years my senior hitting on me and trying to pull a casting couch on me to being forced to constantly prove that I could even play videogames. There were a few nice guys in the company, but compared to the others co-op students with a Y chromosome, I got all the shitty jobs.

Is it only my imagination... and maybe it is... maybe it was just my perceptions and not the world... but it's something I've wondered for a bit...

Was it more "acceptable" or considered less remarkable or what have you, for girls to play games say, about 20 years ago?
I mean, I know it was always more of a male thing, but now it's treated like some sort of oddity (and I have my own suspicions regarding the mega-popularization of games post-PS1 that forced the world at large to take notice and form an opinion on games and game players) whereas I just can't remember having that feeling when I was young in the early 90s.

I mean, the Game Boy was popular enough among girls, right? I dunno, it was just something that came to my mind recently enough.

And like I said, if I'm somewhat on target, could it be the explosion that followed the release of the PS1? You know, how "we" were more left to ourselves and gaming was more of an outside hobby, but now it's all popularized and "acceptable" where it's the normal thing to play games to some extent rather than the exception. And then of course the inevitable flood of more casual, less enthusiastic and serious players, not that there's anything wrong with that, that really really changed up the whole makeup of the gaming "community" or whatever.

I mean, you know who I mean. Not to be as mega-elitist as I inevitably am going to sound. But there are the kind of people who are actually into games ("us" on this board let's say) and then there are the various other kinds. Perhaps when it was just the more enthusiastic among us, we were more accepting and the hobby brought us more together? I dunno, I may be full of ****.

Thoughts?

TL;DR: So yeah, blah blah blah, mass market opening up of gaming to everyone brought about a loss of sense of community and reduction in maturity is what I'm saying.

 

[SeanSeanston]

One wonders what proportion of people crying out against this are straight white dues, trying to tell people that their experiences online aren't actually real, or aren't really a problem. Kind of easy to say that when you're not the target after all ...

TBH, while I half see the intention of what you're saying, I'm bloody sick of this "straight white man" business that's always bandied around.

As though sexuality, race and gender are the be all and end all of human classification and nothing else could ever bring someone to be excluded or treated unfairly.

Just on a semi-tangent here, it's not really related to the XBL subject at hand, given that that's all about sexism, but I do find it annoying and a bit of a catch-all get-out-of-having-to-partake-in-reasonable-discussion-free card.

 

[nacatak]

Though now I'm curious as to what the equivalent of "make me a sammich" is.

Go die in a war.

Go kill yourself.

Go get killed on the job.

All things that men do at far, far higher rates than women.

 

[Rainboq]

Freedom Of Speech Exists
Get Over It

One: Not everyone lives in the United States, so free speech laws can and will differ.

Two: Freedom of speech doesn't apply to this.

 

[nacatak]

One wonders what proportion of people crying out against this are straight white dues, trying to tell people that their experiences online aren't actually real, or aren't really a problem. Kind of easy to say that when you're not the target after all ...

Either way Xbox Live isn't a public space its privately own and run buy Microsoft. And Microsoft has decided that having their service be something that anyone can play on regardless of gender/race/sexual preference/whatever and feel comfortable to doing so, out weighs a user's assumed right to spew hate filled speech.

Unfortunately I don't think there really is a good solution to any of this without swinging the banhammer is probably the only thing that even has a chance at getting the message across to the masses.

I don't see too many people here actually arguing that sexism is a good thing and should be allowed. At best, they are arguing that maybe a perma-ban is a little too severe. Most people are arguing that all forms of discrimination should be viewed as equally (and as I've said previously, to view one form of discrimination as worse than others is in fact discrimination itself).

 

[Erttheking]

Though now I'm curious as to what the equivalent of "make me a sammich" is.

Go die in a war.

Go kill yourself.

Go get killed on the job.

All things that men do at far, far higher rates than women.

Seriously? Are you seriously saying "men do the bigger and more dangerous jobs then women"? No offense and not to use a stock insult that's getting thrown around...that's pretty sexist.

 

[Rainboq]

It was pretty much all of the above, from people heckling me to guys 20 years my senior hitting on me and trying to pull a casting couch on me to being forced to constantly prove that I could even play videogames. There were a few nice guys in the company, but compared to the others co-op students with a Y chromosome, I got all the shitty jobs.

Is it only my imagination... and maybe it is... maybe it was just my perceptions and not the world... but it's something I've wondered for a bit...

Was it more "acceptable" or considered less remarkable or what have you, for girls to play games say, about 20 years ago?
I mean, I know it was always more of a male thing, but now it's treated like some sort of oddity (and I have my own suspicions regarding the mega-popularization of games post-PS1 that forced the world at large to take notice and form an opinion on games and game players) whereas I just can't remember having that feeling when I was young in the early 90s.

I mean, the Game Boy was popular enough among girls, right? I dunno, it was just something that came to my mind recently enough.

And like I said, if I'm somewhat on target, could it be the explosion that followed the release of the PS1? You know, how "we" were more left to ourselves and gaming was more of an outside hobby, but now it's all popularized and "acceptable" where it's the normal thing to play games to some extent rather than the exception. And then of course the inevitable flood of more casual, less enthusiastic and serious players, not that there's anything wrong with that, that really really changed up the whole makeup of the gaming "community" or whatever.

I mean, you know who I mean. Not to be as mega-elitist as I inevitably am going to sound. But there are the kind of people who are actually into games ("us" on this board let's say) and then there are the various other kinds. Perhaps when it was just the more enthusiastic among us, we were more accepting and the hobby brought us more together? I dunno, I may be full of ****.

Thoughts?

TL;DR: So yeah, blah blah blah, mass market opening up of gaming to everyone brought about a loss of sense of community and reduction in maturity is what I'm saying.

Interesting point, but I think what lead to the lack of maturity was the lack of moderation. (for a good example, YouTube comments.)

That said, what happened to me at IW was just unacceptable and probably the worst experience of my life.

 

[nacatak]

It's not the word itself that matters, dick and c*** aren't equal insults because they don't have the same weight behind them. You don't call a man a dick because you're trying to oppress him for being a man, you call a man a dick because you think that he's a jackass. C*** on the other hand, while it can be used like dick, has a tendency to be used against women, insulting them for being women. Dick and c*** aren't even close to being equal. Men aren't being oppressed by being called dicks, because that insult isn't meant to be sexist. Women are being oppressed by being called c*** because it is meant to be sexist.

Also, why is it that sexism against men only gets brought up when people are complaining about sexism against women?

And there we have it folks, one is sexist and the other is not because "errtheking" said so. Double standard abolished!

In all seriousness though, why don't you try and figure out WHY they are considered different. Saying "**** is bad because its oppressive" is no more valid than me saying "dick is bad because it's oppressive". Look past the completely subjective "feelings" someone or some people have over word and as I said, try and figure out why they are different.... emotions are not a valid argument, anyone can feel anything, it doesn't mean I should respect it.

I think you'll be rather hard pressed to find a man who feels like he's being oppressed for being called a dick. It's just the overall state of the culture, it's not "because I say so" it's just common knowledge. I have never seen a single instance of dick being used as a sexist term, but more than a few of c*** being used as a sexist term. It's kind of like f*****, it may be used by others for a different meaning, but it has roots in discrimination, just like c*** does. Dick however, doesn't really have a history of being using as a derogatory insult.

I FEEL that your words are oppressing me right now, therefore you should stop or else get banned. I also feel that "dick" is oppressive and should be banned. Why is that statement wrong? Are my feelings not as important?

I'm just going to link this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion and you can try and figure out why trying to create universal rules that try and pander to an individuals completely subjective emotions is illogical.

 

[cynicalsaint1]

One wonders what proportion of people crying out against this are straight white dues, trying to tell people that their experiences online aren't actually real, or aren't really a problem. Kind of easy to say that when you're not the target after all ...

TBH, while I half see the intention of what you're saying, I'm bloody sick of this "straight white man" business that's always bandied around.

As though sexuality, race and gender are the be all and end all of human classification and nothing else could ever bring someone to be excluded or treated unfairly.

Ironic that you say that when the whole problem is people flinging around insults that boil down a person's worth to exactly that.

 

[Erttheking]

It's not the word itself that matters, dick and c*** aren't equal insults because they don't have the same weight behind them. You don't call a man a dick because you're trying to oppress him for being a man, you call a man a dick because you think that he's a jackass. C*** on the other hand, while it can be used like dick, has a tendency to be used against women, insulting them for being women. Dick and c*** aren't even close to being equal. Men aren't being oppressed by being called dicks, because that insult isn't meant to be sexist. Women are being oppressed by being called c*** because it is meant to be sexist.

Also, why is it that sexism against men only gets brought up when people are complaining about sexism against women?

And there we have it folks, one is sexist and the other is not because "errtheking" said so. Double standard abolished!

In all seriousness though, why don't you try and figure out WHY they are considered different. Saying "**** is bad because its oppressive" is no more valid than me saying "dick is bad because it's oppressive". Look past the completely subjective "feelings" someone or some people have over word and as I said, try and figure out why they are different.... emotions are not a valid argument, anyone can feel anything, it doesn't mean I should respect it.

I think you'll be rather hard pressed to find a man who feels like he's being oppressed for being called a dick. It's just the overall state of the culture, it's not "because I say so" it's just common knowledge. I have never seen a single instance of dick being used as a sexist term, but more than a few of c*** being used as a sexist term. It's kind of like f*****, it may be used by others for a different meaning, but it has roots in discrimination, just like c*** does. Dick however, doesn't really have a history of being using as a derogatory insult.

I FEEL that your words are oppressing me right now, therefore you should stop or else get banned. I also feel that "dick" is oppressive and should be banned. Why is that statement wrong? Are my feelings not as important?

I'm just going to link this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion and you can try and figure out why trying to create universal rules that try and pander to an individuals completely subjective emotions is illogical.

You're complete missing the point, I'm not even using feelings as an argument against you. I'm pointing out that the words c*** and f****** have a history of widespread usage as discriminatory insults and as such, they tend to be used as such today. Dick doesn't have a history like that, nor really any records of being used with the intent to insult someone for their gender. Really, you're the one that keeps bringing up emotions.