Hardcore simmer

[Ikajo]

I must confess I'm not much of a gamer. I'm bored easily and don't like to much information to be able to play the game. And finding a game that's really gets to me, that's not easy. I REALLY like making my own choices and playing as I see fit. I guess most would call me a casual gamer, or maybe not a gamer at all.
Because the only games that I really like are Roller Coaster Tycoon and the The Sims-series. The former most played in my childhood, the latest game ten years old. The Sims is a game that I, and many simmer, spent hours, literally hours, playing. But the few times I spoken with gamers it feels like I'm disqualified as a gamer because I play The Sims.

Why? It's not like I've spent less money than most gamers, heck I've probably spent a few thousands over the years. On a single game series. I buy expansions packs, I buy the new version. I can sit at my computer for four hours straight, playing.

I like the Sims, I make my own choices, I can do a lot of things with ease. Once a programmer teaching a summer course at my university say that The Sims is just a skill maximizing game. Would I spend so much money on a skill maximizing game? Would simmers play for weeks and month to go trough six generations of sims accept calling it a skill maximizing game?

So why is The Sims a non gamer game? Because a lot of women like it? Because it's not a RPG, FPS or typical adventure game? I don't know. What I do know is that I may be a casual gamer but I'm definitely a hardcore simmer.

 

[Weaver]

The Sims is totally a game! I feel like most of the people who dislike it enough to vocally hate on it are the people who think all games need explosions, boobs, and guts. But it's nonsense! Lots of people like it. The Sims 2 is, in fact, the best Selling PC game of all time. Ahead of, of course, The Sims in 2nd place. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games#PC )

I've had a lot of fun with The Sims. It's a building game, a micromanagement game and it can be fun to see your family legacy pass down through the ages.

Also, The Sims (especially the Sims 3 with the traits system) is one of the purest roleplaying video games on the market. Yes, I said that. But, think about it;

You can play an Evil, family oriented Vampire that's agoraphobic and is easily bored. That's a pretty crazy character and all these traits will be recognized by the game and incorporated into his life. I really do think people who like RP heavy games should give it a shot if they haven't already.

 

[josemlopes]

I agree that The Sims is a game, and very good at being a game like Weaver said, the serious issue that the series has (at least for me) is how its sold, The Sims 3 still costs 50? on Steam and all the DLC costs 550,80?.

I would totally play it more if it let the player have a more direct control over the characters (personal preference, thats all), like having the option to play it from the character point of view (with WASD controls) instead of just giving him commands (it makes me feel more like his conscience then the actual character). But only keep it as an option, I know that a lot of people are happy with the way it is now and its not for me to come and demand for them to change it to suit my needs.

 

[TehCookie]

I'd say because women/people who like it don't play many other games. The game itself is neither hardcore not casual, only the people who play it are. To me, a hardcore gamer enjoys games, not a game. People who only play CoD are just as casual as people who only play The Sims. If you play The Sims along with other things you're a hardcore gamer.

Either that or because it's popular with women it's seen as feminine game so men don't want to admit to playing and liking it so it ends up being their guilty pleasure.

Though being hardcore or casual doesn't matter, enjoy what you like and don't care about labels.

 

[Rutabaga_swe]

I guess it depends on your view of waht a game is. The sims, at least the first one which is the one i played, doesn't really have a goal. It's more like a digital doll house if anything. It's an endless exercise in keeping your sims happy.

In my opinion i don't like it because it's a game that just runs it's course and never evolves. I can play Dark Souls 10 times over and still find new secrets and new strategies to deal with enemies and so forth whereas in the sims i saw my sims do the dishes and pee on the floor within the first 30 minutes of starting, and after that the entire game felt like it was about keeping little green bars as high as possible with no end in sight. It just wasn't engaging me in anything that felt meaningful.

The sims feels more like a toy box to me, and a very limited one at that. Is there anything wrong with liking that? No, absolutely not, but i can certainly understand why it is favored by casual players rather than "hard core" gamers.

Weaver: ok you can make nutty characters in the game, but how does the game actually make that meaningful, other than slightly changing how you manage your sims happiness? Is it roleplaying or just a superficial layer superimposed over the stat management of your sim? I mean i can be a vampire with a family in skyrim as well and just add the agorophobia and boredom by myself in terms of how i play the game.

 

[selfty]

Firstly, also a huge fan of RCT (bought it from Good Old Games a few weeks back since I needed some nostalgia actually!)

I definitely have never considered The Sims to be less of game than other games but I know exactly what you are talking about. Plenty of my friends would probably say that games like The Sims [http://gameslikefinder.com/games-like-the-sims/] aren't considered in the same light as other options.

I think it comes down to them having a perception that there isn't a level of "skill" or as much thought process required to be successful in the game and that it plays itself, which is definitely not true.

 

[Weaver]

I guess it depends on your view of waht a game is. The sims, at least the first one which is the one i played, doesn't really have a goal. It's more like a digital doll house if anything. It's an endless exercise in keeping your sims happy.

In my opinion i don't like it because it's a game that just runs it's course and never evolves. I can play Dark Souls 10 times over and still find new secrets and new strategies to deal with enemies and so forth whereas in the sims i saw my sims do the dishes and pee on the floor within the first 30 minutes of starting, and after that the entire game felt like it was about keeping little green bars as high as possible with no end in sight. It just wasn't engaging me in anything that felt meaningful.

The sims feels more like a toy box to me, and a very limited one at that. Is there anything wrong with liking that? No, absolutely not, but i can certainly understand why it is favored by casual players rather than "hard core" gamers.

Weaver: ok you can make nutty characters in the game, but how does the game actually make that meaningful, other than slightly changing how you manage your sims happiness? Is it roleplaying or just a superficial layer superimposed over the stat management of your sim? I mean i can be a vampire with a family in skyrim as well and just add the agorophobia and boredom by myself in terms of how i play the game.

I'd say it's a layer on the stat management, but I don't feel it's superficial. In the Sims 3 if you spend too long outside the game will punish you if you're agoraphobic. In Skyrim, that punishment must be self imposed for example. When I say roleplaying I mean it in a very Pen and Paper sense. I mean playing your Sim to his character much like you would your DnD character. Maximum nerdiness

 

[aozgolo]

I made a thread similar to this back some time ago where I described a playstyle of "games as toys". Basically while strong narratives, cool gameplay mechanics, and rewarding experiences are all fine, I predominantly play games much the same way I would play with Lego sets. It's not about what design Lego cooked up for me to build, though those are fun in their own right, the joy of Lego's comes after you deconstruct your sets and have a box full of bricks that you can literally do anything with. Some people prefer the sim route and I understand why, I personally prefer sandbox because it allows me greater immersion into a particular world as an actual player in it (arguably in The Sims you are not your characters you are their micromanaging deity.)

It's not really what I would call an issue of "casual vs. hardcore", the "games as toys" philosophy does not exclude one from being considered a gamer, it's simply another distinction of what kind of gamer.

 

[Rutabaga_swe]

Well pen and paper roleplaying is, so far as i'm concerned, the de facto RPG-experience. Let's you dork out to your hearts content yet still have some rules to follow to make the game consistent

What i really meant was just, does it actually add to the game or does it just slightly tweak the original formula, and you pretty much answered that. I'm thinking the role playing aspect stems less from the traits and more from the fact that the game is not driven by a narrative. The fact that you, as the player, pretty much make your own scenarios up is probably the largest RP-element, not the traits, am i right?

Now obviously my idea of what the sims is, is largely based on what it was back in feruary of 2000 but i it just felt more like a toy than a game. You wouldn't call Lego bricks a game, and so i wouldn't call the sims a game. I don't attach any kind of negativity to that, i just see it more as something you use to sort of bring life to your imagination. If that is something you enjoy, then that's good.

I think another good one to mention in this kind of discussion is Minecraft. Is that really a game? For me it falls in the same category as the sims as more of a toy than an actual game. A digital toy mind you but a toy none the less. The game just gives you a bunch of tools and content and says "go nuts!". The entertainment comes form the players own imagination (ie building your personal narrative), building and from the social aspect of the multiplayer, not the gameplay.

 

[Qvar]

I think the main issue here (read, Sims players being called non-games) is that a lot of that people ONLY plays The Sims. Like many girls I know of. Thus, the stablished gaming community at large considers that a "gamer" is a person with interest for gameS. Plural.

Just as cooking perfect steaks but being totally unable to make anything else doesn't make you a chef, playing one simple game doesn't make you a gamer, it makes you just somebody who stumbled upong a certain game and liked it. As OP said, they're "simmers", not gamers, which in my mind sounds as something that describes people with interests on a number of gaming genres.

That said, I certainly consider The Sims as any other game, and I've played the series for many, many hours.

 

[Ikajo]

I wouldn't call either The Sims franchise or mindcraft a digital toy. For me, the biggest enjoyment of Sims is making my own goals and try to make my sims accomplice them for me. Sometimes it goes as I want it to, sometimes it doesn't. Both are what's makes the game interesting. Every time I play is different. Also my own investments in my sims actually changes the gameplay accordingly. For example. If you make your sim gay, the game changes and makes homosexuality a part of the possibilities in the games but it won't be their if you as a gamer don't seek it out.
The Sims 3 highly allow you to play through generations of sims, your possibilities are unlimted. The way to play the game is entirely up to you. That doesn't make it a toy. Heck, I'm almost 24 and I still love the game. Every time they whip out something new I gets existed. I couldn't contain myself when Island Paradise came out and couldn't help but to want to play the game myself not just looking at Let's plays. And I already know I want The Sims 4.

The endless creativity, the possibility to choose you own way of play. I don't see how The Sims could be less a game than a typical RPG. I'm a casual gamer. I like games where my choices actually matters (not just seems like it)and where my creativity get it's needs filled. Why, playing RCT I love building rollercoasters, the next worse than the other. I play games, so I'm a gamer. (And seriously, I can at least chose if my female sims are going to be superthin and have huge breast or be dropdead gorgeous even when overweight or hideously ugly.)

 

[Rutabaga_swe]

Again, i didn't say a game as a toy was a BAD thing, you are the one interpreting it as a bad thing. But the way the sims is set up makes it look more like a toy than a GAME. Also, who says toys are only for kids? Ever heard of an iPhone?

A game is a goal and a set of rules. That's pretty much it. It's true for any game. The Sims or Minecraft lacks one of those criteria and thus they are much more identifiable as toys to me. That's not a bad thing, i've played plenty of Minecraft, but it is a interesting factor in why people might view certain games as more "hard core" than others. I think the Lego analogy works quite well here. You have your lego bricks and you can do a lot of great stuff with them, and have a lot of fun with them. But they are not a game, though you could certainly think up games to play WITH the lego blocks. Still doesn't make the blocks in themselves a game.

I like challenging games, i played Ninja Gaiden Black on all difficulties (though Master Ninja got the better of me, never finished that) and i love stuff like Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, because they challenge me. The sims never challenged me, and the only real challenge i find in minecraft is the challenge not to succumb to the tedium of hacking away at bricks for more material and quitting. There is no goal to work towards, except for the ones you set for yourself. Which sounds a lot like what you'd do with a toy. You make up your own games and/or stories to play out with them. On the flipside, the idea of having beaten NG Black on Very Hard is a goal to work towards.

That they let you express yourself creatively is good. A lot of cool stuff has been made with minecraft. Doesn't make it less of a toy though. And to call the sims an RPG i think is a bit of a stretch. You aren't really doing any role playing at all, but that's in the same way that i think it's complete BS to call Final Fantasy 7 or Skyrim role playing games. The notion that leveling up equals role playing is complete bollocks imo. But at the same time just having wacky characters isn't the same as role playing either.

I also agree with previous posters; if you only play a single game you are not a gamer. If you only play The Sims you are indeed a "simmer", not a gamer.

 

[Ikajo]

Ever heard of sandbox-games? You still follow the rules of the game, there's just no way to win because it's no competition, no winner or loser. But hey, I know other games that work the same way, their for fun.

Yeah, you try tell me you can't find a challenge in the Sims. Right know I've got seven sims at the same time, with an highly interactive world, that's a challenge all right. Sure, I'm not playing immersed with any specific sim, but hey, it's still a challenge. Adults, kids, teenagers, toodlers, making them eat, work, go to bed, upping their skill and choosing their way in life. Yeah, that's not difficult!
The goals you make for yourself is still a goal to work towards. I'm trying a legacy for the first time, like ever! In real life, I'm aiming to become an author. I working towards my own goal. I find that's as existing ingame as I do in my everyday life. It's still fulfilling to achieve your goals, maybe even more when it's something you chosen for yourself.

I didn't really say that The Sims is a RPG. I said I don't see how The Sims can be less a game than a RPG, in RPGs you can still find the possibility to make your own goals. You can have a lot of freedom. That's not very different from The Sims in my eyes. Kind of like The Sims Medieval.

Please read my first post again. I say the two only games to have stuck with me are Rollercoaster Tycoon and The Sims-serier. That's not the same as only played only one game. I've played plenty of games, only most of them very simple and I have a hard time finding games I like. I have a Wii, I have som games for my Wii. Most of them are party games. Karaoke, Mario kart, Wii sports. Still games.

I think it should up to the person to decide to call oneself gamer or not. By telling people they not, they are excluded from a media they have an interest in. Only because they don't play the big titles or the most cult games ever. If they want to call themselves gamers, they should be allowed to.

I mean look at me, I studied one summer course in programming games. Did you know what parts I actually understood? Narrative and character development. Why? Because I'm freaking trying to write a book. And the teachers called that the hard parts. Still I got interested in trying to make an interactive story, a game. But my sandbox idea got totally twisted and turned out as something I never would play.

 

[IndomitableSam]

I love The Sims. Can't wait for next spring and Sims 4. And City Builders. And all that genre. They're games, really. Minecraft is the same thing. Games like Pharaoh, Caesar, Emperor and such are great. Maybe if they ever fix the new SimCity I'll get it. The upcoming Banished (plug [http://www.shiningrocksoftware.com/]) is going to eat up a ton of my time.

I also play shooters, RTS and RPGs.

Ignore people who call you on not playing the certain games they think make a person a gamer. It's like people fighting over music - no one's right, Some like rock, some like country and some like rap. Some like everything. Just people being stupid, and, simply, human.

Don't let someone call you a 'simmer'. You're playing a game. What does that make you? ... Whatever the fuck you want to be called. Not what other people want to call you.

 

[Weaver]

Ever heard of sandbox-games? You still follow the rules of the game, there's just no way to win because it's no competition, no winner or loser. But hey, I know other games that work the same way, their for fun.

Yeah, you try tell me you can't find a challenge in the Sims. Right know I've got seven sims at the same time, with an highly interactive world, that's a challenge all right. Sure, I'm not playing immersed with any specific sim, but hey, it's still a challenge. Adults, kids, teenagers, toodlers, making them eat, work, go to bed, upping their skill and choosing their way in life. Yeah, that's not difficult!
The goals you make for yourself is still a goal to work towards. I'm trying a legacy for the first time, like ever! In real life, I'm aiming to become an author. I working towards my own goal. I find that's as existing ingame as I do in my everyday life. It's still fulfilling to achieve your goals, maybe even more when it's something you chosen for yourself.

I didn't really say that The Sims is a RPG. I said I don't see how The Sims can be less a game than a RPG, in RPGs you can still find the possibility to make your own goals. You can have a lot of freedom. That's not very different from The Sims in my eyes. Kind of like The Sims Medieval.

Please read my first post again. I say the two only games to have stuck with me are Rollercoaster Tycoon and The Sims-serier. That's not the same as only played only one game. I've played plenty of games, only most of them very simple and I have a hard time finding games I like. I have a Wii, I have som games for my Wii. Most of them are party games. Karaoke, Mario kart, Wii sports. Still games.

I think it should up to the person to decide to call oneself gamer or not. By telling people they not, they are excluded from a media they have an interest in. Only because they don't play the big titles or the most cult games ever. If they want to call themselves gamers, they should be allowed to.

I mean look at me, I studied one summer course in programming games. Did you know what parts I actually understood? Narrative and character development. Why? Because I'm freaking trying to write a book. And the teachers called that the hard parts. Still I got interested in trying to make an interactive story, a game. But my sandbox idea got totally twisted and turned out as something I never would play.

I agree it's really about making your own objective. I also think one could make the argument that in the Sims 3, fulfilling a sim's desires (the 4 little actions that can fill up) in order to get those... um, life points or whatever they're called is basically the game setting you an objective and you trying to accomplish it. Each Sim in 3 also gets a life goal they want to accomplish and it's really fun to try and make those things happen.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

It's not technically a game, since every game has a goal (unless there's some sort of build-it campaign I haven't heard of). The Sims is kind of like Minecraft, you set your own goals (and rules, sometimes). It's a toy, not a game. Not that there's anything wrong with it!

EDIT: Hey I just got the thread title. Whammy!

 

[LetalisK]

The Sims is totally a game! I feel like most of the people who dislike it enough to vocally hate on it are the people who think all games need explosions, boobs, and guts. But it's nonsense! Lots of people like it. The Sims 2 is, in fact, the best Selling PC game of all time. Ahead of, of course, The Sims in 2nd place. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games#PC )

I call bullshit on that list. Diablo 3 sold 12 million hard copies of the game? I assumed the 12 million figure was including digital reports...but jesus christ!

 

[Rutabaga_swe]

Transformers: Dark of the moon is the 6th highest grossing boxoffice film ever. Copies sold is not and indication of quality. The end

 

[Weaver]

The Sims is totally a game! I feel like most of the people who dislike it enough to vocally hate on it are the people who think all games need explosions, boobs, and guts. But it's nonsense! Lots of people like it. The Sims 2 is, in fact, the best Selling PC game of all time. Ahead of, of course, The Sims in 2nd place. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games#PC )

I call bullshit on that list. Diablo 3 sold 12 million hard copies of the game? I assumed the 12 million figure was including digital reports...but jesus christ!

I believe it includes digital as the blizzard store can actually be tracked (it's in their investor reports as they're publicly traded).