Has "A Song of Ice and Fire" ruined fantasy?

[jademunky]

I'm a big fan of the series and show. Great writing, refreshing to find a writer that actually researches the subject he writes about.

Now here is the problem: ever since i started reading the series, I find myself comparing every other fantasy novel to George R R Martin's work and always find the other novel lacking. Was the genre always this bad? Did my expectations get raised too high? Will I actually have to resort to reading real literature?

Anyhoo, does anyone else feel this way? Is there anyone of comparable quality in this genre? Granted I have never read the Harry Potter books.

 

[tippy2k2]

Note: I have not read the books so if that colors your opinion on my opinion, then so be it.

I've never really had this problem with any media for whatever reason. I've been able to enjoy all sorts of movies/books/video games/erotic novels even when I've experienced what I believed to have been the very best of the best. I don't know if I'm the normal one or if your experience is the normal one but I've never been affected by it.

I suppose I'll get the chance to find out for sure since I ordered the series from Amazon on Saturday after some tosser spoiled a character's upcoming demise when we were talking about the show :,(

 

[Vault101]

I can sort if understand that

I think it helps to not try and want thing B to be like thing A

when u get round to watching deep space 9 I know it won't be TNG...it won't fill that space not will I expect it too

 

[Tayh]

Oh god. I hope not.
GRR Martin is too much talk and not enough action, for my tastes. I really hope he isn't going to start a trend.

 

[Trinab]

To be honest, a lot of fantasy books are/were dross. However, ignoring that fact, even the excellently written ones will have their detractors. My group of friends and I could certainly give you a very good run-down on why the last two Ice and Fire books were lacking. We still enjoy the series, but we can find flaws.

You will always have a favorite, and a book that you hold others up to. Look for recommendations, figure out the reasons why you like Ice and Fire, and knowing that, look for books that are praised for the same thing. Fantasy is a genre, but a character focused fantasy verses one that focuses on world building will be read completely differently.

You said that you like the research the author did for medieval times. Perhaps look into historical fantasy, like Kushiel's Dart, or historical fiction, such as Pillars of the Earth.

I have yet to find the perfect fantasy book for me, but then again, that's why I'm writing one.

 

[Newtonyd]

No, but he has helped me realize the difference between good fantasy and trash fantasy. After reading his books, I realized I needed to seriously up my standards. Believe me, there's still quite a few books that can meet the raised standards, Martin doesn't hold the copyright for good writing. Reading a few reviews, seeing how books are rated before buying them, avoiding junk spinoff series, all these things narrow the spectrum down to some definitely good books.

If you need some examples, may I recommend:

Blood Song
The Stormlight Archive
Tigana
The Name of the Wind + A Wise Man's Fears
... and more, if you need them.

A good place to start looking is goodreads.com.

Have fun, and don't give in to the idea of never finding good fiction again.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

If ASOIAF ruined fantasy by being too good, I shudder to think about what it was like beforehand. The plot is decent and the characters are fun, but Martin draws things out for waaay too long, and writes himself into corners that only a broadsword to fifty characters can clear.

There's plenty of great fantasy out there. Give the Belgariad by David Eddings a read. It takes your usual save the world plot and inhabits the story with characters extremely aware of just how generic their tale is.

 

[StriderShinryu]

I think Martin's work is very good, but it's also very much off in it's own corner as far as I'm concerned. While it does certainly show that writing in fantasy doesn't have to be bad, it also leans very heavily on a more realistic world and detail oriented style. If I want something truly fantastical or magical, or even something more fast paced and action oriented, I'm not going to go with Fire and Ice no matter how well it's written.

 

[jademunky]

snip

at times I've been that tosser. Never intentionally but it kinda slips out.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

No I don't think it's ruined fantasy. It has certainly made a huge mark for dark low-fantasy but there's still room for your high fantasy with elves and goblins etc.

 

[jademunky]

snip

Well, it aint perfect, and now that you mention, you are kinda right about the cliffhanger stuff. Especially book V. Admittedly it all-but-guarantees that I will be buying book 6 in hardcover just to find out if *name redacted* survives the ******** from *names redacted* over at the **** **** meanwhile ******** ********* ******* **** ***** *** two trips to the chiropractor.


Anyway, back to the comparison to other writers

Its just..... how do I put this? Ever read the Sword of Truth books? I am sad to say that as a teenager, I read most of them. Ever read anything written by R.A. Salvatore? (hope you like elves).

Honestly, Terry Pratchett would be the only other author in that genre that I can read and genuinely have fun and I think that is partly due to his books being at the opposite end of the spectrum.

 

[tippy2k2]

snip

at times I've been that tosser. Never intentionally but it kinda slips out.

It does slip sometimes. The dude felt absolutely terrible about it (or maybe he was saving himself when three now very angry co-workers looked his way with murder in their eyes) and he apologized profusely for the slight against us.

On the plus side, I 100% expected [characters name retracted to protect the innocent]'s death and all he said was that he/she died, not what actually happened so he was allowed to leave the place with his life

...for now

ಠ_ಠ

 

[jademunky]

No I don't think it's ruined fantasy. It has certainly made a huge mark for dark low-fantasy but there's still room for your high fantasy with elves and goblins etc.

I think high-fantasy refers to any fantasy that exists in its own self-contained-world, as opposed to one that merely exists in a modified version of our world (ala Neverwhere or Harry Potter)

 

[jademunky]

snip

I've heard some really good things about Pillars of the Earth. Sadly I have also heard that it is nearly as incesteriffic as GOT. Seems an odd trend.

 

[Thaluikhain]

No I don't think it's ruined fantasy. It has certainly made a huge mark for dark low-fantasy but there's still room for your high fantasy with elves and goblins etc.

I think high-fantasy refers to any fantasy that exists in its own self-contained-world, as opposed to one that merely exists in a modified version of our world (ala Neverwhere or Harry Potter)

Er...that's not a definition anyone else seems to use. High fantasy is generally in a self contained world, yes, but there's lots of magic and "epicness". Low fantasy also usually in a self contained world, but is "grittier" and there's usually less magic.

A modified version of our world (at least a modern one) is urban fantasy.

Though, there's lots of overlaps and contradictions.

I don't even think of Harry Potter as fantasy.

Apparently, neither did Rowling for a while.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

No I don't think it's ruined fantasy. It has certainly made a huge mark for dark low-fantasy but there's still room for your high fantasy with elves and goblins etc.

I think high-fantasy refers to any fantasy that exists in its own self-contained-world, as opposed to one that merely exists in a modified version of our world (ala Neverwhere or Harry Potter)

Well when I think high fantasy, I think World of Warcraft, specifically Vanilla+Burning Crusade. Swords, fireballs and arrows...and also steampunk motorcycles.

 

[Vault101]

No, but he has helped me realize the difference between good fantasy and trash fantasy. After reading his books, I realized I needed to seriously up my standards. Believe me, there's still quite a few books that can meet the raised standards,.

As Somone who's never really been able to get into the genre (but is perfectly happy to read any pew pew space book) what is the difference?

 

[J Tyran]

If ASOIAF ruined fantasy by being too good, I shudder to think about what it was like beforehand. The plot is decent and the characters are fun, but Martin draws things out for waaay too long, and writes himself into corners that only a broadsword to fifty characters can clear.

There's plenty of great fantasy out there. Give the Belgariad by David Eddings a read. It takes your usual save the world plot and inhabits the story with characters extremely aware of just how generic their tale is.

David Eddings is one of my favourite writers but I do have to say while the Belgariad was great the sequel series the Mallorean was much weaker, to anyone that is thinking of picking up any of the novels related to Belgariad should start with the prequels. Belgarath the Sorcerer will give a few spoilers and a bit of foreshadowing but it chronicles the millennia long life of one of the series most interesting characters.

 

[Skin]

snip

I've heard some really good things about Pillars of the Earth. Sadly I have also heard that it is nearly as incesteriffic as GOT. Seems an odd trend.

It's not, it's solid writing, but becomes completely predictable and utterly boring about 3/4 of the way through.

On topic, one word, Malazan.

To be honest, George is a great writer, but he isn't that great of a story teller. The series was meant to be 3 books long, and it just keeps getting more and more extended. He just isnt concise enough. I suggest you check out Joe Abercrombies books and also the Malazan series by Erikson. Neither of them are better writers than GRRM (to be honest, I don't think anyone is a better writer than GRRM) but they are better storytellers.