Has Bioware been falling in quality?

[guitarsniper]

Lessee here, gonna address a bunch of random points in order:
DAO: i bought the collector's edition so i didn't deal with the DLC issues
ME2 bad story: it wasn't as much a story game as ME1, but it was a bit more of a character game. the loyalty missions especially helped your party develop as characters and resolve important issues, while the part member missions in ME1 ("recover wrex's family armor") were far more simple. I'm hoping that bioware can pull one out and manage to cover both bases in ME3, but we'll see.

I do really like RPGs, but i'd always take a game with a good story and characters and worse inventory/stat management than a game with a bad story and good inventory/stat management.

 

[orangeban]

My biggest beef with ME:2 as compared to the original, is that you could remove ME:2 from the trilogy of games, and effectively no difference would be made to the story (excluding that piece of DLC that came out). Sure, there are some new characters and now Cerberus is dicking around, but at the end of ME2, the reapers are set to invade and Captain Sheperd is no closer to figuring out how to stop them.

Dammit Bioware, you don't get trilogies. This is your standard trilogy structure
1st game, set the stakes, 2nd game, raise the stakes,
3rd game, shit go wild, the end.

It's a very very simple concept, but you managed to make it go:
1st game, set the stakes,
2nd game, leave the stakes exactly as they are,
3rd game, shit go wild, the end.

Do you see the problem there?

 

[ecoho]

TOR is good because they pulled a lot of their best staff onto it. That's why ME2 and DA2 were both really similar and vaguely shitty; they brought in new people who are trying too hard, plus I firmly believe despite all BioWare's nervous, abused-spouse-like protestations, EA is demanding that they increase their "mainstream appeal", or "broaden their demographic", or whatever it is that talentless executives say when they think quality is irrelevant to sales.

I was tempted to be all snarky and just say "Yes." and leave it at that, but god forbid I don't write an entire paragraph if I feel the need to say anything, Escapist.

hey now to be fair ME2 suffered from "middle book syndrome" were its too early to bring on the big baddies but too late to just go back and fight regular enimes. so they did what all second books, movies,or games do, they did character depth and had anok bad guy to end it with.(btw the final boss in ME2 was kinda BS but not the worst ive seen)

 

[Joby Baumann]

I cant be the only one who noticed that (with the exceptions on ME2 and DA2)all of their games were nearly identical (play Knights of the old republic, then DAO).

 

[XUnsafeNormalX]

I cant be the only one who noticed that (with the exceptions on ME2 and DA2)all of their games were nearly identical (play Knights of the old republic, then DAO).

The games not so much...the characters however are almost universal throughout Bioware Games.
Lawful Good Male Buddy
Innocent Woman
Mean Woman
Honorable Warrior
Neutral Mercenary character


I'm sure the list goes on but those come to mind off the bat.

 

[The_Waspman]

The problem is that Bioware have garnered this reputation (perhaps rightly so, I'll admit, I've never played any of their older stuff) for being producers of very good rpgs. Saying that though, they're never going to be able to live up to the standards that people (fans) are going to expect of them. I think part of the problem is that they're listening to the fans too much. So much debate went into what canon femshep should look like, or whether they should show Tali's face. All this pandering to the fans every whim is weakening the games. Leave all that stuff for the fanfic Bioware.

In regards to Dragon Age 2...

I do feel the need to defend this game somewhat. Don't know why. I enjoyed it. I've said it before in these forums, but I'll say again here. Dragon Age 2 is not a bad game. It is however a terrible sequel. Yes, it was rushed, and the repeated dungeons got tiresome, but the game itself wasn't that bad. And in regards to the spawning mobs every two minutes, yes, its a cheap mechanic to pad the gameplay, but looked at from a story perspective, the whole game is told by an unreliable narrator. I'm not saying its excusable, but when you look at it from the perspective of Varric saying 'and then we got jumped by fifty guys and we wiped them out' it kinda makes sense.

Ultimately though, Mass Effect 3'll be the last Bioware game I'll be getting, none of their other output interests me now.

 

[Stainlesssteele4]

Besides the dip in quality with Dragon Age 2, I haven't felt any true lapse in overall polish with their games.
Mass Effect 2 was very good actually. Despite it's general lack of difficultly, the story was engaging and mostly all player choice felt meaningful.
I've also been playing SW:ToR since beta, and I can safely say it is an excellent game. I originally was going to pass, as after my long stint with WoW I had sworn off MMOs, but my love for both Bioware games and the Kotor series was enough for me to give the beta a try. They have done such a good job, and at most times it feels more like a Bioware RPG with co-op rather than a full blown MMO.
So, OP, I must disagree, I believe Bioware is only getting better.

 

[PinochetIsMyBro]

No not really. I loved Mass Effect 1(great story) despite the IKEA side mission dungeons. Dragon Age Origins as well. Mass Effect 2 felt like a step up from ME2, with every area being unique and continuing with the original interesting story. I also liked the companion dialogue. Mining was annoying, but not half as annoying as the Mako. If I had a choice between the two I'd pick mining every single time.

DA2 was a let down(but an expected one - unlike most people I actually looked at the respective development times and realized they had nowhere near enough time), but I still loved it. I won't try to pretend that having a total of four dungeons was anywhere near acceptable, however.

SWOTOR: Haven't played it, don't care about mmos.

High hopes for ME2.

 

[CardinalPiggles]

I think they may be getting lazier/ less budget, but I blame EA for that. Cut loose now Bioware while you still have a chance!

It's disgraceful.

It's business baby, no worse than adding less food product in a same size and price packet. [sub]*looking at you Doritos*[/sub]

 

[-Dragmire-]

For people who liked DA2 and ME2 no, there wasn't a drop in quality.

For people who didn't like them yes, it did.

For people who idolize the Baldur's Gate series, the quality's dropped since then.

I personally never played DA2 so I can't say anything about that, however, repeated dungeons never bothered me before.

I liked ME2 but I didn't like them altering the logic of the Mass Effect universe in reference to the weapons and the last boss was rather stupid. That being said I still enjoyed the game overall.

I wouldn't say the quality has dropped, but I would say the focus of their games is starting to deviate from the style I prefer.

 

[The Madman]

Quality?

No, not at all. Dragon Age 2 was pretty obviously a bit rushed, but that's one game among many so I'd not be willing to judge the entire studio on that one product. In terms of polish and quality, even game design and mechanics, Bioware are better than they've ever been. They're right up there with the best I'd say, alongside studio such as Valve or Blizzard renown for their polish and eye for quality.

I think the problem many people have with them is that while their quality has only improved over the years, their philosophies and direction have changed.

They don't really make the same sort of rpg experience they used to, and by all appearances have no intention of ever really doing so again. Slowly steering away from the tactical party-based narrative experiences steeped in DnD style presentation to a more linear but cinematic action feel that's less DnD and more Die Hard.

No necessarily a bad thing at all, many no doubt love the shift in direction. But for many fans of the 'old' Bioware, so to speak, it's sure to ruffle a few feathers.

At least that's how I see it!

 

[80Maxwell08]

I cant be the only one who noticed that (with the exceptions on ME2 and DA2)all of their games were nearly identical (play Knights of the old republic, then DAO).

Hold on a moment.....there.

I will give ME2&DA2 that it did try to break out of this.

 

[Scars Unseen]

The first act was just grinding 50 gold. That isn't a great way to hook players. I had to motivate myself to complete the first act. That isn't a good thing.

That sound's familiar, for some reason. Where have I run into a quest like that before... Oh yeah, that's right. It's the exact same thing you had to do in Baldur's Gate 2, arguably the best game Bioware ever made(only you needed 15000 gold). And just like in that game, there is an alternative(namely, making a deal with someone you really should know not to).

Now I won't argue that Bioware's work hasn't fallen in quality, but I think that some people are looking at the wrong games for proof. DA2 was proof that a one year development cycle will demand some shortcuts, and that is it. Other than the copypasta issue, I find DA2 to be more enjoyable than DAO most times. No, the turning point for Bioware was when they left the Infinity Engine behind and started putting more effort into their 3D engines than they did their gameplay. The only thing that saved NWN was the toolkit and its community of modders. KOTOR, while enjoyable, had nowhere near the scope of BG2. Jade Empire was good(and I could wish for a sequel), but marked a definite departure from Bioware's RPG roots, and again, was limited mostly to a path.

This isn't really an issue with Bioware, however. This is just the direction that the industry took. You changed with the industry or you got left behind by the industry. That's just the way it is with big productions. Bethesda did the same thing. So did Obsidian(if you consider their previous work as Black Isle. So did pretty much everyone else that's survived. So yeah, Bioware's current games today aren't as good as they were a decade ago. But they're still good, and so I still buy them.

 

[TheMagicLemur]

hey now to be fair ME2 suffered from "middle book syndrome" were its too early to bring on the big baddies but too late to just go back and fight regular enimes. so they did what all second books, movies,or games do, they did character depth and had anok bad guy to end it with.(btw the final boss in ME2 was kinda BS but not the worst ive seen)

That's not what my issue was though. My issue was with the drop in writing quality (people throwing around cursewords out of the blue didn't give the writing any extra gravitas, it just sounded like kids who just learned swear words) and the focus on action at the expense of the story. I knew EXACTLY who they were trying to appeal to when the first trailer of Jack dropped "Who's the bad-ass biotic *****" nearly kept me from even RENTING that fucking game).

Also, I feel that the new lead designer for the ME/DA series is a little too insistent on shoehorning in anime/manga aesthetics (Look at Flemeth in DA2... ridiculous and VERY Final Fantasy-ish). I have nothing against blending western and eastern styles, but this person/dev team/whatever sucks at it. Combine that with their pretty clear transition to style over substance, and you see why I don't have much faith in BioWare these days. "It's a BioWare game" is no longer enough for me to assume good quality.

Also, no. The boss fight in ME2 was STUPID. Being able to kill a (utterly fucking silly humanoid) Reaper with your GUN completely, absolutely, positively undercut any and all threat the Reapers posed, in my opinion. I don't want[/] Shepard to be some unstoppable action-hero badass. I can watch any number of boring action movies or play any number of insipid action games if I want that. With BioWare, I expect solid writing throughout. They set a very high standard for themselves, and have repeatedly failed to live up to it.

Except in The Old Republic, where they put all the talent, apparently.

 

[JB1528]

Oh hey look, a thread where a vocal hardcore minority bitches about how they just don't make games like they did back in 199X, the good old days......Yeah I'm going to leave now.

 

[everythingbeeps]

DA2 is the "worst" Bioware game, though aside from some glaring problems (reused environments, shitty story), it's still pretty damn good. And Mass Effect 2, on the other hand, blew ME1 out of the water. So no, I wouldn't say they're getting worse.

 

[Scars Unseen]

That's not what my issue was though. My issue was with the drop in writing quality (people throwing around cursewords out of the blue didn't give the writing any extra gravitas, it just sounded like kids who just learned swear words) and the focus on action at the expense of the story. I knew EXACTLY who they were trying to appeal to when the first trailer of Jack dropped "Who's the bad-ass biotic *****" nearly kept me from even RENTING that fucking game).

Emphasis for hilarity.

Also, I feel that the new lead designer for the ME/DA series is a little too insistent on shoehorning in anime/manga aesthetics (Look at Flemeth in DA2... ridiculous and VERY Final Fantasy-ish)

Yes, very Final Fantasy.

Also, no. The boss fight in ME2 was STUPID. Being able to kill a (utterly fucking silly humanoid) Reaper with your GUN completely, absolutely, positively undercut any and all threat the Reapers posed, in my opinion.

Agreed, though one could plausibly assume that the nigh invulnerability that Reapers have comes with age and plot necessity.

 

[ecoho]

hey now to be fair ME2 suffered from "middle book syndrome" were its too early to bring on the big baddies but too late to just go back and fight regular enimes. so they did what all second books, movies,or games do, they did character depth and had anok bad guy to end it with.(btw the final boss in ME2 was kinda BS but not the worst ive seen)

That's not what my issue was though. My issue was with the drop in writing quality (people throwing around cursewords out of the blue didn't give the writing any extra gravitas, it just sounded like kids who just learned swear words) and the focus on action at the expense of the story. I knew EXACTLY who they were trying to appeal to when the first trailer of Jack dropped "Who's the bad-ass biotic *****" nearly kept me from even RENTING that fucking game).

Also, I feel that the new lead designer for the ME/DA series is a little too insistent on shoehorning in anime/manga aesthetics (Look at Flemeth in DA2... ridiculous and VERY Final Fantasy-ish). I have nothing against blending western and eastern styles, but this person/dev team/whatever sucks at it. Combine that with their pretty clear transition to style over substance, and you see why I don't have much faith in BioWare these days. "It's a BioWare game" is no longer enough for me to assume good quality.

Also, no. The boss fight in ME2 was STUPID. Being able to kill a (utterly fucking silly humanoid) Reaper with your GUN completely, absolutely, positively undercut any and all threat the Reapers posed, in my opinion. I don't want[/] Shepard to be some unstoppable action-hero badass. I can watch any number of boring action movies or play any number of insipid action games if I want that. With BioWare, I expect solid writing throughout. They set a very high standard for themselves, and have repeatedly failed to live up to it.

Except in The Old Republic, where they put all the talent, apparently.

oh i see what you mean now and can understand what you ment but to be fair the whole last boss fight was you basicly walking into the nicu of a hospital and punching a baby to put it in perspective.

well to each their own at least we can agree about TOR.

 

[Samus Aran but a man]

I didn't like Mass Effect, but I believe Mass Effect 2 is one of the greatest games ever made, so I think not.