Has Fromsoft been trying to make invasions less viable?

[D-Class 198482]

Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 introduced some pretty bizarre multiplayer things. Both games give a heavy health nerf to anyone going into someone else's world, and Dark Souls 3 limits your estus alongside that -- but the hardest-hit multiplayer facet has been invasions.
In Bloodborne, invasions were pretty much nonexistent. You have two areas you can do an actual invasion in and then any other time you'll be invading someone who used a Beckoning Bell, which means they probably have someone in their world already -- so you'll be going into a 2+v1 fight with drastically reduced health. Dark Souls 3 had something similar, where you can only be invaded if you're in Embered form, which means, once again, there's a big chance you'll be running into a fight with multiple people against you and reduced health.

Do you think these were oversights on Fromsoft's part or were they genuinely trying to make invasions less viable?

 

[Sleepy Sol]

I think they're genuinely trying to make your ruining someone else's day pretty difficult. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, depending on your perspective. I have no issue with getting ganked when I'm invading someone else's game against their will. I have even less of an issue with managing to overcome the gank. It makes victory sweeter.

If you want 'fair' 1v1 fights just do duels. They're especially easy to start in Dark Souls 3, and there are already several well-defined areas where you can just pick a red sign and fight to your heart's content. More of an issue with Bloodborne but I think most people have more or less moved on to Dark Souls 3.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

You are forgetting that the invader has the ENTIRE LEVEL on their side when they invade. Don't like your odds? Run to an area where you know there are tons of enemies and wait for the host to come to you. Just hope they don't use a Seed, otherwise you've just killed yourself.
Also, as Sleepy Sol said, you are deliberately going in to someone else's game and attempting to ruin it for them. This should not be a cakewalk for you. You have to earn it.
Finally, the summon system worked the same in Dark Souls, if I remember right. You could only be invaded when you weren't Hollowed, which is the same as being Embered. Only Dark Souls II let you invade a person whenever.

Again, as Sleepy Sol said, there are plenty of places you can do the honorable duel thing, but you have to hope when you get summoned the person doesn't have an entire army waiting to ambush you. But if they do, then so be it. This is Dark Souls. Hard is part of the game, and despite what other players like to tell you, there are no official rules. You can play your game your way, and they can play it their way. When those two ways clash, you find out whose way is better.

 

[Evonisia]

I believe they have yes. Each Soulsborne game after the original "Dark Souls" has been more friendly to newcomers, so I imagine by the time "Bloodborne" came along they decided to properly assess the online component. Like Sniper Team 4 said, the whole point of Invasion is to ruin somebody's game, and it's especially brutal to newcomers who aren't even accustomed to the regular game nevermind the PvP. It's a bigger challenge to invade now. The newcomer has a better chance to avoid death, and the invader has to put in more effort to attain victory.

I've barely invaded so far in "Dark Souls 3" (though that's largely due to the online on the Xbox One version basically only activating thanks to RNG), but I found it quite satisfying when I finally took down this person I invaded given how much effort I had to put in.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Probably trying to make them less viable.

One on one, the invader has the advantage. They can abuse the level and the mobs to their hearts content, and they have time on their side. The host has a few extra health potions. Oh boy.

 

[Elijin]

Good.

Nothing bugged me more in the other souls game than rolling through some new area I was still struggling with in a PvE build only to get invaded and completely rolled by someone who has perfected their pvp build and min/maxing.

so yeah, given the chasm between whats been good for pve and whats good for pvp, I hope its harder, you jerks.

 

[DeadProxy]

I hope so. I hate the pvp in this series, partly cause I suck (I've killed 1 invader since the release of demons souls) and all my experiences have left me thinking the best way to play is offline, which it is.

Im glad that this game is really trying to get people to stop twinking, since you're most upgraded weapons determine who you can invade, so no more end game gear on a level 10 assface is a good step towards making the pvp in this series not make people avoid it entirely.

If they ever make a co-op only mode, though, I'd be super happy, because fuck invaders.

 

[Fox12]

They never felt viable, even in the original. The invader is always at a disadvantage. You have to genuinely be a better player if you want to win.

Still, I haven't been invaded once yet. A little disappointing.

 

[wings012]

Have you been kindled?

I jolly cooperate with a friend most of the time I play, so I've been invaded shit loads.

Of course being at a disadvantage , invaders will often camp at the most annoying spots. Crystal lizards, knight type enemies... etc.

I basically always have Way of the Blue on now when I am hosting. Wanna play the patience game? The Darkmoon can have you.

 

[Chaos Isaac]

I feel like most people here, especially the OP, have not been playing the Souls games for a while.

Also, I can't comment on Demon's Souls PvP because I couldn't even summon a dude and rarely had to deal with it.

But the rest... That's the fucking rules. Being Human/Kindled means you can get help and extra hindrance. It's basically how the game self-balances summoning. I've seen, and been, an invader come in and just roll over everyone and use clever idea's to simple kill the host and win.

The health nerf, in my experience, isn't even that bad. As far as it's ever done to me, it's only removed my 'kindled' extra amount of health and no more. Even more then that, it's ridiculously easy to get a Red Eye Orb and invade with nothing to stop you besides the amount of targets. Even more then that, there's new covenants that change how you want to invade, so you can just target one guy, or specific phantoms for more benefit. (Red kill blue and get double reward. Blues killed Faithful and get double reward. Purples kill ANYONE and get REWARDED.) If you think that the invading in Dark Souls 3 is less viable, you're probably just not that good of an player, or haven't been paying attention to the series.

The problem with Bloodborne's PvP was the lack of viable builds and weapons. You wanted damage? Ludwig's greatsword. You wanted speed and damage? Katana. And there was little more then that going on, and then visceral attack options were low, and even if you did get one, dudes could roll out fairly quickly and not get criticaled. The game just wasn't that fun for PvP. It doesn't have the variety of weapons, abilities, or builds that any Dark Souls does.

 

[Jandau]

First, let me preface this by saying that I'm not much of a PvP player. I haven't engaged in any PvP in any of the previous Souls games, aside from getting killed when invaded. I'm a PvE carebear, almost to a fault.

That being said, PvP in DS3 has been made a bit too much of a hassle, for everyone.

In DS1, if you didn't want to PvP, you simply didn't go Human. Aside from kindling bonfires, there wasn't really any point anyway. In DS2, while you couldn't "opt out", there were covenants there to protect you. This time around, however, the deck is very much stacked in favour of the host. You can only be invaded if you are Embered (equivalent of going Human in DS1), there are three covenants dedicated to protecting people who are being invaded. And finally, the game prioritizes people who already have phantoms helping them when picking an invade target for you, so you're more likely to run into a 1v2 or 1v3 as an invader.

This seems to hit low level PvP the hardest, which might not be a bad thing. Things tend to even in midgame, as zones become more dangerous (having the enemies on your side isn't worth much if said enemies are piss weak). For instance, you can get some really quality invasions (both as an attacker and defender) in the area right after Pontiff Sulyvan.

If there's one thing that needs fixing then it's that the "protector" Covenants (Sentinels, Darkmoon, Farron) need some fixing and/or a rework. They very rarely trigger and they have no way of invading actively (i.e. pursuing sinners). I tend to run around Embered all the time (embers are very plentiful) and keep my Way of the Blue on, but whenever I'm invaded there's no trace of help. No Sentinels or Darkmoon ever show up. On the other hand, when I DO slap on Sentinels or Darkmoon I get maybe one summon in 2-3 hours. Something is definitely not working properly there...

 

[DementedSheep]

Thing is, invading is 0 risk to you. You don't lose anything (you can lose souls but considering you chose when to invade if you lose your souls you really have noone to blame) and you stand to gain an item to rank up your cov which gets you unique rewards. If you are invaded and you die, you lose your ember (not a big deal if you invade and co-op a lot but more of a problem if you don't and just needed help), you may lose your souls and you get jack shit for winning unless its a mound maker (then you get their rank up item). In addition to that as an invader you are more likely to be set up for (and actually want) PvP, you have not been fighting the map and using up resources prior to invading, the enemies of the map are on your side (it's not an honour duel, it's cat and mouse) and you can even BSC out. You SHOULD be at a disadvantage unless the host summoned you (then having uneven health and flacks is a bit shit).

I've been invading in DS3 and don't have much problem with it despite being fairly shit at PvP. People have been saying it's always a gank fest but I've fought many solo hosts or had a 2v2. It only seems to be a gank fest if you invade the starting areas in which case you deserve it.

 

[Aerosteam]

Did even play the first game? You couldn't get invaded if you were hollow, exact same thing in DS3. In fact, it might be easier to invade in DS3 than it is in DS2 because you can't burn human effigies anymore, so I have no idea what you're talking about when you say they're making invasions less viable. (Never played Bloodborne).

Plus, since when were invasions supposed to be viable? YOU picked a fight with someone, the odds should be against you. You even have nothing to lose when you get killed, but the world host does. I think it's more likely to invade someone who already has a summoned white phantom in their world, but get this: the invader is teamed up with every enemy in the level which evens the odds somewhat, I have not encountered an invader yet that hasn't ran away to heal behind some enemies. And no uses seeds of a giant tree.

Edit: I agree with the guy below me.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Git gud.

 

[Sleepy Sol]

If there's one thing that needs fixing then it's that the "protector" Covenants (Sentinels, Darkmoon, Farron) need some fixing and/or a rework. They very rarely trigger and they have no way of invading actively (i.e. pursuing sinners). I tend to run around Embered all the time (embers are very plentiful) and keep my Way of the Blue on, but whenever I'm invaded there's no trace of help. No Sentinels or Darkmoon ever show up. On the other hand, when I DO slap on Sentinels or Darkmoon I get maybe one summon in 2-3 hours. Something is definitely not working properly there...

Definitely agreed. I have never been triggered for a summon as a Sentinel or Darkmoon in well over 60 hours playing now (probably partially due to impatience waiting for ANYTHING to happen). Meanwhile, invading with the Red Eye Orb, if not instant, only takes a few minutes. Also, I have no idea why they made Darkmoons functionally the same as Blue Sentinels. What the hell was wrong with keeping the Blue Eye Orb? Just do that as an 'active' invasion covenant and keep the Sentinels as the passive summoned protection.

 

[1-800-STFU]

Have you been kindled?

I jolly cooperate with a friend most of the time I play, so I've been invaded shit loads.

Of course being at a disadvantage , invaders will often camp at the most annoying spots. Crystal lizards, knight type enemies... etc.

I basically always have Way of the Blue on now when I am hosting. Wanna play the patience game? The Darkmoon can have you.

Hosts with Phantoms are given priority when it comes to invasions. Thats why you get a large amount of invasions.

 

[EvilRoy]

They never felt viable, even in the original. The invader is always at a disadvantage. You have to genuinely be a better player if you want to win.

Still, I haven't been invaded once yet. A little disappointing.

I've found that the invasion areas are very locked in already to spots with lots of difficult enemies, or spots immediately after a boss fight - both if they can swing it. The Untended Graveyard is like a guaranteed invasion, I swear.

One to keep in mind is that co-op and pvp matchmaking now apparently depends both on character level and on the level of your strongest upgraded weapon. So basically, if you level up a lot, or ignore levels and upgraded your weapon a pile, then you might be 'off beat' to everyone else as far as level goes for a given area. Thanks to blind luck I had a +9 weapon fairly early on, so it actually became very hard to summon as nobody else was around my level range for areas I was in.

 

[1-800-STFU]

First, let me preface this by saying that I'm not much of a PvP player. I haven't engaged in any PvP in any of the previous Souls games, aside from getting killed when invaded. I'm a PvE carebear, almost to a fault.

That being said, PvP in DS3 has been made a bit too much of a hassle, for everyone.

In DS1, if you didn't want to PvP, you simply didn't go Human. Aside from kindling bonfires, there wasn't really any point anyway. In DS2, while you couldn't "opt out", there were covenants there to protect you. This time around, however, the deck is very much stacked in favour of the host. You can only be invaded if you are Embered (equivalent of going Human in DS1), there are three covenants dedicated to protecting people who are being invaded. And finally, the game prioritizes people who already have phantoms helping them when picking an invade target for you, so you're more likely to run into a 1v2 or 1v3 as an invader.

This seems to hit low level PvP the hardest, which might not be a bad thing. Things tend to even in midgame, as zones become more dangerous (having the enemies on your side isn't worth much if said enemies are piss weak). For instance, you can get some really quality invasions (both as an attacker and defender) in the area right after Pontiff Sulyvan.

If there's one thing that needs fixing then it's that the "protector" Covenants (Sentinels, Darkmoon, Farron) need some fixing and/or a rework. They very rarely trigger and they have no way of invading actively (i.e. pursuing sinners). I tend to run around Embered all the time (embers are very plentiful) and keep my Way of the Blue on, but whenever I'm invaded there's no trace of help. No Sentinels or Darkmoon ever show up. On the other hand, when I DO slap on Sentinels or Darkmoon I get maybe one summon in 2-3 hours. Something is definitely not working properly there...

The "protector" covenants are just completely broken. They needed to reintroduce the Blue Eye Orb for the Darkmoon and leave the Sentinels to auto-help or something. If I summon a phantom and then use Dried Finger I'll always get an invader and darkmoon in my world within 5 mins. Without doing those things I'm lucky if that happens twice an entire playthrough.

 

[DefunctTheory]

If there's one thing that needs fixing then it's that the "protector" Covenants (Sentinels, Darkmoon, Farron) need some fixing and/or a rework. They very rarely trigger and they have no way of invading actively (i.e. pursuing sinners). I tend to run around Embered all the time (embers are very plentiful) and keep my Way of the Blue on, but whenever I'm invaded there's no trace of help. No Sentinels or Darkmoon ever show up. On the other hand, when I DO slap on Sentinels or Darkmoon I get maybe one summon in 2-3 hours. Something is definitely not working properly there...

Perhaps late game people don't have those Covenant's enabled often? I know in the first two areas, every single invasion I witnessed triggered a Blue Sentinel summoning, without fail.

 

[not_you]

Good, invasions were my least favourite part of the Souls games...

I never even bought DS2 because invasions were permanent...
Does that make me a pussy for not wanting to play the game the way it was intended?
Probably...
Do I give a fuck?
Nope...

If I wanted a competitive multiplayer experience, I'd play something like Battlefield/CoD, LoL/Dota or another multiplayer game...
If I want a strong RPG, with heavy emphasis on learning and adapting... I pick Dark Souls...

Do people want to turn up uninvited in my world and fuck up my day?
Sure...

Does that mean I want them there?
Fuck. No.

Good riddance I say... And to those bastards who hunt low-level players for the fun of it...
Well, I think we know who the real pussies are here...