HD Remix designer attacks Street Fighter IV

[n01d34]

Sirlin is right, as usual.

It boggles my mind that anyone would try to argue that a game where a casual player won't even be able to do the basic moves on the movelist is "casual friendly". There's just no way that someone new to fighting games can do a 720 or 2x qcf while someone is trying to hit them.

But that's the thing. Specials, kara throws, link combos ect are not basic moves. For the casual player a punch is a basic move and fly kicks are down right fancy.

Yes these higher level moves are included in the in-game training sessions but those are for people who want to get really good at the game. I'd wager 90% of the casual fans won't bother with the optional tutorials. Who wants to take lessons when you can just jump into some one on one ass kickery with your buddies?

The reason SFIV is more accessible then a lot of other fighters is because even if you don't know what your doing it's still fun. The basic meat of the gameplay like spacing, blocking ect are quickly apparent. Unlike say Soul Calibur IV where right off the bat you need to know the difference between horizontal and vertical attacks and how to execute and avoid each.

It's a misnomer that casual players don't like complex games (Bejewelled when played really well is insanely complicated) rather they want the fundamental aspects of the game to be immediately enjoyable. Then over time they'll get into the higher level play.

 

[tgun]

-Snip-

In relation to Shadow Skill;

Before I answer this, I honestly doubt you've played the 360 version of SF4. I have found the controller fine, honestly. The thumbstick and D-pad aren't the best, but for their mapping of the controller, it does wonderfully well.

 

[Brotherofwill]

Holy fuckin shit he has a lot to say, but he actually has some good points (nit-picky though)

My main problem is the jumping I think, it just doesn't seem natural and the jumping curve is extremely odd as he said.

Never knew that SF had so many hidden combos, but then again I never played the game on a scientific level. Would have bought HD remix but those bastards haven't released it on the European Psn

 

[Nutcase]

Sirlin is right, as usual.

It boggles my mind that anyone would try to argue that a game where a casual player won't even be able to do the basic moves on the movelist is "casual friendly". There's just no way that someone new to fighting games can do a 720 or 2x qcf while someone is trying to hit them.

But that's the thing. Specials, kara throws, link combos ect are not basic moves. For the casual player a punch is a basic move and fly kicks are down right fancy.

Yes these higher level moves are included in the in-game training sessions but those are for people who want to get really good at the game. I'd wager 90% of the casual fans won't bother with the optional tutorials. Who wants to take lessons when you can just jump into some one on one ass kickery with your buddies?

The reason SFIV is more accessible then a lot of other fighters is because even if you don't know what your doing it's still fun. The basic meat of the gameplay like spacing, blocking ect are quickly apparent. Unlike say Soul Calibur IV where right off the bat you need to know the difference between horizontal and vertical attacks and how to execute and avoid each.

The block button is the same for both horizontal and vertical attacks in SC, is it not?

If you are designing for a person who wants to mash buttons at random ("if you don't know what you're doing"), then whatever cool moves you put in the game should have an input simple enough that mashing the buttons will often result in those cool moves coming out. Otherwise the players will never see those moves, which is obviously less fun.

By that criteria, Tekken and SC are clearly better games.

 

[Woe Is You]

But that's the thing, the move sets are easy for everyone. The majority of the special moves are based around the same four or five inputs, for example, if you know how to do Ryu's moves, then you know how to do Ken's, Dan's, C.Viper's, Sagat's, etc, etc.

...It's also worth mention that Super and Ultra combos are supposed to be tricky to pull of, because they're so damaging. They're like a reward for taking the time to practise them.

Contradiction? Anyone?

The whole point he has is being able to do every move at will without extensive practice. Also, I thought we already had a limitation on how often you can pull off an ultra/super move so is there a real need to make an artificial barrier of entry for that? Why not just make it so that nobody has problem doing any of the moves with the timing being the tricky part?

And anyway, what the hell is SFIV? SF or SF Alpha 3 except worse gameplay, better graphics, and a nice PR copy. Big deal.

Oh, I don't know if it's as bad as Alpha 3 (the buggiest 2D SF in existence) unless you mean "more characters = better gameplay".

Never knew that SF had so many hidden combos, but then again I never played the game on a scientific level.

They aren't really hidden, since there's a trial mode that teaches them for you.

 

[Altorin]

As for the cancels, Those start on Trial Mode Tier 3 for all characters (At least the several I've attempted). Trial Tier 1 is Basic attacks, Tier 2 is specials, Tier 3 is cancels, Tier 4 is "basic" combos (lulz).. I don't know Tier 5 because I didn't get any of the basic combos for any of the characters that I got that far. in the trials

It's also ANNOYING AS HELL because casual players don't have the stepping stone into those maneuvers.

Street Fighter 4 needs to be looked at from 2 entirely different perspectives - The casuals, and the experts.

Like Nil said, SF4 is an easy game to pick up, the characters all play very similarly, at least as far as supers go. If you're playing with a newer player who's played as Guile and learned the Sonic Boom and Flash Kick, and they pick up M. Bison, you can just say "He's a charger", and they player will be able to do most of the specials without really thinking too hard.

Casuals and new players will probably not even know what a Focus attack is, and when they do learn, it will probably be only used as an easy to perform, unblockable powerful attack. Focus Canceling won't even be comprehensible. I don't think the Trials do an adequate job of introducing these advanced concepts to newer players who wish to maximize their gameplay.

Experts will not have any problem with these concepts, as they're accustomed to playing games to the frame. Casuals don't even get the concept of a frame most of the time. SF4 is a great game for people new to fighting games, and people who are not new to fighting games alike.. That's how Street Fighter has always been. My sister, who can't do a Hadouken to save her life has had a blast with SF4, mainly due to the character design. By using the Handicap system, I can level the playing field between us.. As I'm learning to play better, I will be attempting to do things other then win (such as the occasional force cancel, or a particularly difficult ultra), our win ratios are actually pretty close, and she has a good time with it.

 

[n01d34]

Sirlin is right, as usual.

It boggles my mind that anyone would try to argue that a game where a casual player won't even be able to do the basic moves on the movelist is "casual friendly". There's just no way that someone new to fighting games can do a 720 or 2x qcf while someone is trying to hit them.

But that's the thing. Specials, kara throws, link combos ect are not basic moves. For the casual player a punch is a basic move and fly kicks are down right fancy.

Yes these higher level moves are included in the in-game training sessions but those are for people who want to get really good at the game. I'd wager 90% of the casual fans won't bother with the optional tutorials. Who wants to take lessons when you can just jump into some one on one ass kickery with your buddies?

The reason SFIV is more accessible then a lot of other fighters is because even if you don't know what your doing it's still fun. The basic meat of the gameplay like spacing, blocking ect are quickly apparent. Unlike say Soul Calibur IV where right off the bat you need to know the difference between horizontal and vertical attacks and how to execute and avoid each.

The block button is the same for both horizontal and vertical attacks in SC, is it not?

If you are designing for a person who wants to mash buttons at random ("if you don't know what you're doing"), then whatever cool moves you put in the game should have an input simple enough that mashing the buttons will often result in those cool moves coming out. Otherwise the players will never see those moves, which is obviously less fun.

By that criteria, Tekken and SC are clearly better games.

To defend against some vertical attacks you need move to the side (towards or away from the camera). This doesn't work against horizontal attacks which is what you use the block button for.

Anyway, I guess we're hitting up against a different view of casual players. I don't think they'll care if they can't execute even a simple hadoken cause the basics are fun.

To get back to my bejewelled example you don't need to be able to pull off crazy cascading five jewel chain combos to enjoy the game. Just match four and watch the pretty colours.

As for Tekken and SC I'n not arguing that SF IV is better then those merely that it's easier to just pick up and play. Both of them are already much more complicated purely because they exist in a three dimensional space (see for example the horizontal and vertical attacks from SC). Tekken I?ve played less of but what I did felt less immediately pleasurable in a simple tactile way. Plus I'm not really into constant over the top flashy attacks that do little to no damage. They can be confusing for a casual player cause the moves look like they'd kill the guy but really they're little better then a basic attack (SC really screws that up, god those throws are ridiculous).

 

[MrGFunk]

Tekken I?ve played less of but what I did felt less immediately pleasurable in a simple tactile way. Plus I'm not really into constant over the top flashy attacks that do little to no damage. They can be confusing for a casual player cause the moves look like they'd kill the guy but really they're little better then a basic attack (SC really screws that up, god those throws are ridiculous).

I know what you mean. In Tekken King's five throw move should take off the whole damage bar it's so destroying. I always consider that the characters are just stronger and can take more damage.

 

[Nutcase]

Unlike say Soul Calibur IV where right off the bat you need to know the difference between horizontal and vertical attacks and how to execute and avoid each.

The block button is the same for both horizontal and vertical attacks in SC, is it not?

If you are designing for a person who wants to mash buttons at random ("if you don't know what you're doing"), then whatever cool moves you put in the game should have an input simple enough that mashing the buttons will often result in those cool moves coming out. Otherwise the players will never see those moves, which is obviously less fun.

By that criteria, Tekken and SC are clearly better games.

To defend against some vertical attacks you need move to the side (towards or away from the camera). This doesn't work against horizontal attacks which is what you use the block button for.

OK. I didn't know SC4 had something like this, I've only played SC1-3.

Anyway, I guess we're hitting up against a different view of casual players. I don't think they'll care if they can't execute even a simple hadoken cause the basics are fun.

They'll start caring when they notice they have no chance against an opponent who doesn't necessarily know anything more about the game, but who can physically perform joystick gymnastics.

To get back to my bejewelled example you don't need to be able to pull off crazy cascading five jewel chain combos to enjoy the game. Just match four and watch the pretty colours.

Perfectly analogous to what a button masher does in Tekken and SC. Hit buttons, maybe block once in a while, watch the pretty colors - not just plain punch and kick.

As for Tekken and SC I'n not arguing that SF IV is better then those merely that it's easier to just pick up and play.

Many aspects of SF IV's system are somewhat easier to pick up, *if* you are interested in learning them. Usually casual players want flash and immediate gratification rather than plain punches, kicks and understanding, though.

And there's the problem of balance over time. When you are a complete newb in Tekken or Virtua Fighter and improve slightly, you only win slightly more. Doesn't a person who can (joystick-wise) perform basic specials in SF automatically wipe the floor with someone who is limited to basic attacks? Tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger tiger...

Fortunately, it's not an either-or choice if the designer doesn't want it to be. Smash gives everyone immediate access to all the fireworks, unlike SF, and doesn't "randomize" them behind stances or canned flowcharts either, like SC and its ilk do.

 

[Logan Westbrook]

But that's the thing, the move sets are easy for everyone. The majority of the special moves are based around the same four or five inputs, for example, if you know how to do Ryu's moves, then you know how to do Ken's, Dan's, C.Viper's, Sagat's, etc, etc.

...It's also worth mention that Super and Ultra combos are supposed to be tricky to pull of, because they're so damaging. They're like a reward for taking the time to practise them.

Contradiction? Anyone?

The whole point he has is being able to do every move at will without extensive practice. Also, I thought we already had a limitation on how often you can pull off an ultra/super move so is there a real need to make an artificial barrier of entry for that? Why not just make it so that nobody has problem doing any of the moves with the timing being the tricky part?

It's not really a contradiction, if you look at the moves lists, most Super/Ultra combos are based around the same kind of inputs the special moves are. In essence, they are just trickier special moves.

Would you prefer it if they were triggered by just a single button press?

 

[Woe Is You]

Would you prefer it if they were triggered by just a single button press?

Actually, why not? Is there a good reason why an ultra/super move should be tricky to pull off? We already know that there's a way to make this work (Final Smashes in Smash Bros Brawl) and like I said, the super and revenge bars already limit how often we can use super moves.

Spoiler: Not really related to this.

Just playing devil's advocate here. There are also plenty of reasons why I like traditional fighters. Mostly the competition, how timing and brains are needed to win, the fact that a match takes a couple minutes at most, and that there are clear game rules instead of house rules like Smash Bros matches usually have. Oh, and unlike Smash, which the devs treat as more of a party game, they concentrate on balance so you don't have to rely on counterpicking to do well in some matches.

 

[D_987]

Would you prefer it if they were triggered by just a single button press?

Actually, why not? Is there a good reason why an ultra/super move should be tricky to pull off? We already know that there's a way to make this work (Final Smashes in Smash Bros Brawl) and like I said, the super and revenge bars already limit how often we can use super moves.

Spoiler: Not really related to this.

Just playing devil's advocate here. There are also plenty of reasons why I like traditional fighters. Mostly the competition, how timing and brains are needed to win, the fact that a match takes a couple minutes at most, and that there are clear game rules instead of house rules like Smash Bros matches usually have. Oh, and unlike Smash, which the devs treat as more of a party game, they concentrate on balance so you don't have to rely on counterpicking to do well in some matches.

I think there has to be some degree of skill (remembering buttons and timing) when activating super-moves, but they needn't be ridiculously over-complicated.

 

[Woe Is You]

I think there has to be some degree of skill (remembering buttons and timing) when activating super-moves, but they needn't be ridiculously over-complicated.

Take out the execution part and you'll still have setting your opponent up for it and timing it correctly, which are arguably the more interesting parts of the game anyway. Blasting super moves onto someone who's blocking is just setting yourself for punishment to begin with.

 

[D_987]

I think there has to be some degree of skill (remembering buttons and timing) when activating super-moves, but they needn't be ridiculously over-complicated.

Take out the execution part and you'll still have setting your opponent up for it and timing it correctly, which are arguably the more interesting parts of the game anyway. Blasting super moves onto someone who's blocking is just setting yourself for punishment to begin with.

Well I haven't played the game so I have no idea what your saying lol.

 

[Fightbulb]

Actually, why not? Is there a good reason why an ultra/super move should be tricky to pull off? We already know that there's a way to make this work (Final Smashes in Smash Bros Brawl) and like I said, the super and revenge bars already limit how often we can use super moves.

I do think special moves should be difficult do perform, because they're very effective. They should be harder to pull off than normal moves because they're also a lot stronger than normal moves. I mean, it makes sense to me.

Speaking of Smash, compare special moves in SF4 to Jigglypuff's down+b. It's insanely strong, but hitting people with it is difficult, and requires good timing and spacing. High risk + practice = high reward.

 

[Woe Is You]

This is why there has to be some difficulty."Fight" "Mega Hidoken""Round Over Ryu wins".

Read the post. Read the previous posts. They'll tell you why this wouldn't happen even if SFIV had one button moves.

I do think special moves should be difficult do perform, because they're very effective.

And because they're very effective, we can only use them a limited amount of times (super/ultra bars). I'm not seeing the problem. If those flashy moves get blocked, there's a significant recovery time where the opponent can punish for quite a bit of your life if they have a super bar of their own.

Jiggly's rest move isn't hard to use because there's a mystifying input to it, it's hard to use because you have to set it up and time it correctly. Anyone can do the move, it's just that timing it just right is the problem. There's really no problem there.

 

[Nutcase]

Actually, why not? Is there a good reason why an ultra/super move should be tricky to pull off? We already know that there's a way to make this work (Final Smashes in Smash Bros Brawl) and like I said, the super and revenge bars already limit how often we can use super moves.

I do think special moves should be difficult do perform, because they're very effective. They should be harder to pull off than normal moves because they're also a lot stronger than normal moves. I mean, it makes sense to me.

Speaking of Smash, compare special moves in SF4 to Jigglypuff's down+b. It's insanely strong, but hitting people with it is difficult, and requires good timing and spacing. High risk + practice = high reward.

That's completely different.

Timing, spacing, risk and reward are inherent properties of a move. Having to do 720+PPP and other absurd inputs, and consequently having to sit in practice mode for hours upon hours (depending on how dexterous you are on a joystick to begin with) is an arbitrary restriction, and ultimately has little effect on game balance as the good players will just become perfect at the inputs.

If you're going to make arbitrary hoops to jump through, why not make it so that one has to bench press 100kg and send photo evidence to Capcom before being allowed to use supers/ultras? At least then you'd have something to show for it other than a fast and limber wrist.

 

[Fightbulb]

Timing, spacing, risk and reward are inherent properties of a move. Having to do 720+PPP and other absurd inputs, and consequently having to sit in practice mode for hours upon hours (depending on how dexterous you are on a joystick to begin with) is an arbitrary restriction, and ultimately has little effect on game balance as the good players will just become perfect at the inputs.

Okay, the Jigglypuff thing might have been a bad example, still, I do feel it serves as a (somewhat harsh, admittedly) barrier that seperates people who've been playing the game for a long time from people who are playing it for the first time. I don't see how practicing to get good at something is an arbitrary restriction. I will agree that some of the specials/ultras are a bit too complicated, but I don't think dumbing them all down is the right solution.

 

[tiredinnuendo]

Timing, spacing, risk and reward are inherent properties of a move. Having to do 720+PPP and other absurd inputs, and consequently having to sit in practice mode for hours upon hours (depending on how dexterous you are on a joystick to begin with) is an arbitrary restriction, and ultimately has little effect on game balance as the good players will just become perfect at the inputs.

Okay, the Jigglypuff thing might have been a bad example, still, I do feel it serves as a (somewhat harsh, admittedly) barrier that seperates people who've been playing the game for a long time from people who are playing it for the first time. I don't see how practicing to get good at something is an arbitrary restriction. I will agree that some of the specials/ultras are a bit too complicated, but I don't think dumbing them all down is the right solution.

No one's saying practicing to get good is a bad thing....

My thoughts, for what they're worth are this:

Few things are more annoying in a game than try to perform a given operation and having your commands misinterpreted. The Wii can be pretty bad with this, but really any game can do it. Ryu knows how to throw a fireball, I know how to do the move, I want him to do the move. Should I have to wonder whether the controller will accept my input as "correct" in order to do the move?

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned BT3, which is a really interesting example, actually. The special moves in that game are either L2+triangle or L2+up+triangle. The ultimates are L2+down+triangle. For every character. I would put forward that this is a good thing. It means that when I want to do those moves, those moves are what happens. Does BT3 still have a huge learning curve? Hell yes. The combos you could string together if you knew what you were doing were amazing, there was a follow up to most of the standard attacks that differed character to character, and mastering the various counters really seperated the masters from the beginners.

But you never had to wonder if you were going to be able to do the move you meant to or not, or maybe do a completely different move by mistake because you hit that third punch button a little late.

Effective use of special moves should be about learning to time them correctly to string together combos for big damage, not about having to master oddball controller motions.

- J