Help me resolve my deep-seated Final Fantasy problems

[Seldon2639]

No. Locke, because of Rachael joined up with the Returners, he was also a personal friend of Edgar, he had every reason to be involved in the conflict and help Terra, also his relationship with Celes is a pivotal plot thread in the game.

IIRC, you don't learn about Rachael and all of Locke's backstory unless you take an optional side-quest line. Which you either need a guide, or to stumble upon. I don't count motivation and character development which I have to scour the globe for as actual motivation or character development. He just kind of goes along for the ride, as do most of the other characters. If you play straight from beginning to end (as I did), you never learn why hardly any of the characters are sticking around.

Grrr... no. Sephiroth was a good "character" but I never even felt he was a "villain;" he could have easily been a protagonist (see: Crisis Core). Sephiroth WAS mindless. His Oedipal motivations were totally counter productive to the idea of "stopping evil," and turned into stopping a mama's boy. I actually viewed Rufus as a better villain and was sad when he was _____'ed. You may prefer "complex motivations" and "moral ambiguity" in your bad guys, but I actually like them to be bad. Kefka's motivation was "power corrupts," and when you take someone already corrupt and give them access to corrupting power... you get someone that can literally blow up the world, and get away with it.

Wow, talk about two-dimensional. Kefka's motivation was "I'm a bad dude". I like my bad guys with a bit more depth and roundness to them than "omnicidal maniac" and character development consisting of "getting even more power/insanity".

I like villians who aren't evil in the sense of "just out to break shit". Evil done for the sake of good, or on principle, is much more entertaining. Beating 'evil' doesn't make you think. I do agree Rufus/Shinra was a better antagonist, but Kefka just sucked. I felt no motivation to keep going, because there was nothing else there. "Good guys smash bad guys", c'mon.

Ugh no... you can't compare the "customization" abilities of Final Fantasy VII and place them above Final Fantasy VI. In Final Fantasy VI you could teach any character any spell, you could give any character melee weapons, ranged weapons, any accessory... you could make them defense oriented, magic oriented, attack oriented (Genji Glove + Offering anyone?), and you had to be creative with how you developed them if you wanted to low-level the final encounter. I could not (read: STILL cannot) stand the "You get the sword, you get the gun, you get the megaphone" weapon mechanic of the newer Final Fantasy's. It's insulting to me. It's like they're saying I can't manage my own party or put people into appropriate rolls. Adding the "skill" mechanic to characters however (i.e. Tools, Blitz, Runic, Steal, etc.) made you care about who you took in your party and it gave the characters interesting battle mechanics. ALL of the characters in Final Fantasy VII played the exact same way with the exception of limits so I never cared "who" I had in my party. In Final Fantasy VI you had characters that played NOTHING like one another, but could be balanced out if you so chose. Gau and his 'rage' abilities, Terra's esper transformation, Celes' Runic ability, Cyanne's SwordTechniques, etc. etc. It set the characters apart, and during the dividing battles/dungeons, it made you think about who you wanted to group with who. Way more fun.

Perhaps for you. But in the same way you can't stand the "you get the sword, you get the gun, you get the fists" mechanic, I despise the "you get this set of abilities, you get this set, you get this set" and no interchangeability. I want to be able to give Terra the rage abilities, give Celes transformations, give Gau swordfighting, ect. You talk about hating not being able to customize, then then praise FFVI for not allowing you to customize

I prefer to think about how I want to develop the group I actually like rather than having to think about who of the fifteen characters, most of whom I rarely played, I should bring. I like having my group of four characters I like using, and being able to customize them, rather than having to switch out for characters I dislike.

 

[SavingPrincess]

Snip

How did the materia system make any sense though?

"Putting this yellow ball inside my sword makes me able to steal things in the middle of battle!"
Uh... no... being a talented thief makes you able to steal things.

"Hey look! By putting this (cleverly titled) yellow ball called Master Command in my gun I can now do this set of six particular actions. Oh wait... I mean spear, I can't use a gun, my hands are only capable of holding spear shaped objects... luckily every town I visit has sequentially stronger spears for me to purchase. Though, since I'm the only one that apparently can use a spear, I wonder why every shop we visit carries a spear? They must get excited when they see me coming, they're about to make their one sale ever since they opened since I am the only eligible customer they will ever have. Can't say it's the most intelligent business model... you think they would carry something that more than just me and my friends that happen to be with me at the time can use. Oh well. Hey CLOUD! Do you have another little purple ball that makes me able to cast this one spell on more than one person? Thanks... oh wait... the holes in my weapon don't have the little connect-y thingy... crap."

You can dislike the Final Fantasy VI skill mechanic, but it made sense. Edgar was an inventor, he can use tools. Cyan was a skilled swordsman... why should he be able to use tools? Gau was a kid raised by monsters, why should he be able to transform into an Esper? The customization I was praising in Final Fantasy VI made sense. Magicite was almost mechanical in nature and taught you MAGIC... people should be able to use both melee and ranged weapons... anyone can put on an accessory. Not everyone should be able to have martial arts skills if they're not a martial artist. You shouldn't be able to transform into an esper if you are NOT AN ESPER... savvy?

And just because you like fat bad guys doesn't mean Kefka wasn't a good villain. You want motivation? Take a psychology class... Kefka was insane. He wanted to bring the world to nothingness... just because his motivations weren't spelled out for you doesn't mean that they weren't there.

 

[Zukonub]

I've never played through, or attempted to play through a final fantasy game.


I have a life.

Not if you say something like that you won't, not for long anyway. *sharpens hammer*[sub]... wait...[/sub]

Start with FFX. It's got a nice story, likable characters[footnote] Except the protagonist, obviously[/footnote] and is quite fun. The turn-based combat is usually what annoys people about FF games. If you're not a fan of chess, I'd recommend FFXIII or FFX-2 to start with.

Just don't play FFXII, it's horrible.

Lol while I agree that XII isnt the best your saying that X-2 is... X-2 was terrible!!

How was it terrible, might I ask?

It screwed up the story, yeah.

Give me another reason.

Despite having a fun battle system (that XIII improved upon in every way conceivable), the game is just filler. Poor characterization, poor plotting, as little fighting as possible, and tons of stupid ass minigames hampered the experience quite a bit. And now that we've gotten a better successor to its school of battle system philosophy, I don't see why anybody would want to play it.

 

[Seldon2639]

Snip

How did the materia system make any sense though?

"Putting this yellow ball inside my sword makes me able to steal things in the middle of battle!"
Uh... no... being a talented thief makes you able to steal things.

"Hey look! By putting this (cleverly titled) yellow ball called Master Command in my gun I can now do this set of six particular actions. Oh wait... I mean spear, I can't use a gun, my hands are only capable of holding spear shaped objects... luckily every town I visit has sequentially stronger spears for me to purchase. Though, since I'm the only one that apparently can use a spear, I wonder why every shop we visit carries a spear? They must get excited when they see me coming, they're about to make their one sale ever since they opened since I am the only eligible customer they will ever have. Can't say it's the most intelligent business model... you think they would carry something that more than just me and my friends that happen to be with me at the time can use. Oh well. Hey CLOUD! Do you have another little purple ball that makes me able to cast this one spell on more than one person? Thanks... oh wait... the holes in my weapon don't have the little connect-y thingy... crap."

I'm sorry. I blanked out for a second. You're complaining that magic doesn't make sense, right? That's kind of like complaining that water is wet, isn't it? You can attach an object to your body which provides you the ability to use magic? That sounds a lot like Magicite, doesn't it? Or like the L'Cie symbol in FFXIII.

Do you prefer when they just gloss over it and say "you can use magic, just roll with it"? You're bashing one magic system that doesn't make sense while promoting another one that doesn't make sense. Try something for me. Just say "I prefer Final Fantasy Six; I don't have to justify it, or prove myself right, it's my opinion and I get to have it". Then take a breath, and stop trying to show that one completely unbelievable system is more believable than another unbelievable system.

Also, good thing that all of the Esper crystals were in easy-to-find locations related to the backstories of the side-characters, huh? Would have sucked to have had to excavate for them or anything, I'm glad they landed in pre-existing caves.

I just don't understand how one system (which limits the types of weapons someone can use) is "bad" and "doesn't make sense", while another (which limits the types of skills someone can use) makes perfect sense. Lemme put it this way: Cid trained in spears, not guns. He'd suck with guns, so doesn't use them. Cloud trained with swords, he wouldn't do well with spears, or guns, or hand-to-hand combat.

You can dislike the Final Fantasy VI skill mechanic, but it made sense. Edgar was an inventor, he can use tools. Cyan was a skilled swordsman... why should he be able to use tools? Gau was a kid raised by monsters, why should he be able to transform into an Esper? The customization I was praising in Final Fantasy VI made sense. Magicite was almost mechanical in nature and taught you MAGIC... people should be able to use both melee and ranged weapons... anyone can put on an accessory. Not everyone should be able to have martial arts skills if they're not a martial artist. You shouldn't be able to transform into an esper if you are NOT AN ESPER... savvy?

See above. Either both make sense, or neither. Edgar was an inventor, so he can use tools. Barret had a gun for an arm, so he can use gun-arms. Cyan was a swordsman, so he can't use tools. Tifa was a martial artist, so she can't use gun-arms. Cloud trained with big-assed swords, why should he be able to use guns?

The lack of customization you're deriding in FFVII makes just as much sense.

Not everyone should be able to have gun skills if they're not a shooter. You shouldn't be able to wield a spear if you've never trained in it... Savvy?

And just because you like fat bad guys doesn't mean Kefka wasn't a good villain. You want motivation? Take a psychology class... Kefka was insane. He wanted to bring the world to nothingness... just because his motivations weren't spelled out for you doesn't mean that they weren't there.

Fat? Where'd that come into it.

Also, there's no condition in psychology known as "just insane". The DSM-IV doesn't recognize "bat-shit crazy" as a legitimate condition. Kefka, actually, doesn't have any psychological conditions recognized in the DSM-IV. Anti-social behavior disorder, I suppose, but even that's a stretch.

I understand his motivations, nor did they need to be spelled out. They were so simple and obvious anyone with half a brain could figure them out simply from the maniacal laugh. The fact that I found his motivations simplistic and lacking in depth, believability, and entertainment doesn't mean I didn't understand them.

I can both understand a game, and dislike it.

 

[Seldon2639]

I've never played through, or attempted to play through a final fantasy game.


I have a life.

Not if you say something like that you won't, not for long anyway. *sharpens hammer*[sub]... wait...[/sub]

Start with FFX. It's got a nice story, likable characters[footnote] Except the protagonist, obviously[/footnote] and is quite fun. The turn-based combat is usually what annoys people about FF games. If you're not a fan of chess, I'd recommend FFXIII or FFX-2 to start with.

Just don't play FFXII, it's horrible.

Lol while I agree that XII isnt the best your saying that X-2 is... X-2 was terrible!!

How was it terrible, might I ask?

It screwed up the story, yeah.

Give me another reason.

Despite having a fun battle system (that XIII improved upon in every way conceivable), the game is just filler. Poor characterization, poor plotting, as little fighting as possible, and tons of stupid ass minigames hampered the experience quite a bit. And now that we've gotten a better successor to its school of battle system philosophy, I don't see why anybody would want to play it.

Fanservice.

Lots, and lots, of fanservice.

Fanservice coming out the bum, bursting out the shirt, and hugging every curve of the main characters' bodies.

Seriously:

Fanservice.

 

[SavingPrincess]

Fat? Where'd that come into it.

ahem:

I like my bad guys with a bit more depth and roundness to them

I don't take myself that seriously... so calm down. I just know I can hold a sword, a spear, and shoot a gun... I might be better with one than another, but I can use them all as weapons. All the series systems were illogical, but yes, Final Fantasy VII's system was MORE illogical than the illogical system in Final Fantasy VI

Psychopathy (and to a lesser extent sociopathy) is a personality disorder characterized by an abnormal lack of empathy combined with strongly amoral conduct, masked by an ability to appear outwardly normal.

Sounds pretty accurate to me. Couple that with cunning and talent... I think you have yourselves a Kefka.

 

[Seldon2639]

~snip~

Neither psychopathy nor sociopathy are recognized as diagnoses unto themselves in the DSM-IV. I actually have taken psychology classes.

But, on the point about weapons:

Okay, so if we want full realism, we let Cloud use any weapon. But, he's used swords for years, so he'd be best with those. If we give Cloud a spear, he'll be more likely to hurt himself and others swinging it around, and he shouldn't get better very quickly. The skill of using a big ol' sword is different from using a big ol' spear, so he'll start from nothing, and it'll be very slow, arduous training to get better.

If we wanted to be really accurate, anyone using a gun should have to train for months (if not years) to be able to hit a target from any considerable distance. Martial arts would take even longer.

Which means, for all intents and purposes, no one would be able to use any weapon aside from what they start with.

If you want realism, we can do realism

 

[Space Spoons]

The only advice I can give is to start at the bottom and work your way up. Some of the early games in the series are masterpieces to be sure, but the way the series evolved as time went on makes it very difficult to go back once you've had a taste of the future.

Or, if you want to avoid that mess altogether, just play Final Fantasy Tactics. It is, in my opinion, the only Final Fantasy game that could be classified as truly perfect. The only trouble you might run into is deciding which version to play. The original, PSOne version runs like a dream, but the translation is kind of wonky in places. The PSP port has some added features, a retranslated and rewritten script and cutscenes, but suffers from some pretty abysmal slowdown. It also uses that weird, annoyingly pretentious, pseudo-Olde English dialect that FFXII used, so I'm inclined to side with the original translation, as awkward as it can sometimes be.

 

[SavingPrincess]

Okay, so if we want full realism, we let Cloud use any weapon. But, he's used swords for years, so he'd be best with those. If we give Cloud a spear, he'll be more likely to hurt himself and others swinging it around, and he shouldn't get better very quickly. The skill of using a big ol' sword is different from using a big ol' spear, so he'll start from nothing, and it'll be very slow, arduous training to get better.

And as a martial artist, I can tell you that if you're skilled with one martial weapon, it's not hard to move to another and even on the first time picking it up, be competent with it. Most of us train multiples to begin with. Plus (if you wanna take the realism angle), wasn't Cloud a member of Soldier, do you really think he would injure people if he had to use a spear instead of his sword? If so that would be the best FMV sequence ever. I'd totally pay to see that.

I've also shot a gun, and hit a target at the back of the shooting range multiple times on my first try so I'm pretty certain I can hit Emerald Weapon with no problem. Heh.

Maybe I'm a Final Fantasy hero! OMG!

"FIRE"

...
...

...

Damn. Where's my little green ball?

 

[Kortney]

I've never played any FF either. Only because I am not a fan of Japanese RPG's. At all.

I've never played through, or attempted to play through a final fantasy game.


I have a life.

Lying swine! No one here has a life!

You have been exposed!!1

 

[Seldon2639]

Okay, so if we want full realism, we let Cloud use any weapon. But, he's used swords for years, so he'd be best with those. If we give Cloud a spear, he'll be more likely to hurt himself and others swinging it around, and he shouldn't get better very quickly. The skill of using a big ol' sword is different from using a big ol' spear, so he'll start from nothing, and it'll be very slow, arduous training to get better.

And as a martial artist, I can tell you that if you're skilled with one martial weapon, it's not hard to move to another and even on the first time picking it up, be competent with it. Most of us train multiples to begin with. Plus (if you wanna take the realism angle), wasn't Cloud a member of Soldier, do you really think he would injure people if he had to use a spear instead of his sword? If so that would be the best FMV sequence ever. I'd totally pay to see that.

I've also shot a gun, and hit a target at the back of the shooting range multiple times on my first try so I'm pretty certain I can hit Emerald Weapon with no problem. Heh.

Maybe I'm a Final Fantasy hero! OMG!

"FIRE"

...
...

...

Damn. Where's my little green ball?

Having done martial arts myself, as well as weapons training (kendo, fencing, and sais), your statement lacks credence with me.

The actions for fighting with a bo are completely different from a katana, from a Kama, from a naginata, from an epee, from a foil.

Also, did you try hitting a moving target from further away than a range would be set up? Or shot in a combat situation where a simple tea-cup grip and isosceles stance wouldn't be possible? Picking up a gun and hitting a target isn't the same as being competent with one in a combat situation. Or do you not know how long they spend teaching soldiers how to shoot?

Some weapons are closer to others (a naginata and no-dachi are close in how they're used), and concurrent training is possible, but let's even accept Cloud as being a master with every weapon. Tifa? Cid? Barret? Cait Sith? Vincent? Why would any of them have multiple weapon expertises?

And you never responded to any of my other points. Are you accepting you were wrong?

Why in the world would