Heteronormaltivity in games

[Demongeneral109]

I'm not... entirely sure why it would be.

That's entirely my point.

Why must the idea of gay romance justify its existence in games? A lot of people in this thread have been asking, "why must there be gay characters?", or sentiments to that effect, as if gay characters/romances/sub-plots must have a damn good reason for being there.

My aim was to illustrate that straight romances are taken for granted, and gay ones are held to a very different standard.

not for anything, but you have to realize that being straight is the norm, and in fact, we are evolutionary inclined to be so for the sake of baby making. Being heterosexual is standard, and so that is the way it is in games. If you meet someone new IRL, you don't assume gay until proven straight, its the other way around. As such, it makes sense to say "if a character is going to be gay, it needs to be a central aspect of his character" because there are unique challenges about being gay that will never exist for straight people. By necessity, there must be different standards.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

I'm not... entirely sure why it would be.

That's entirely my point.

Why must the idea of gay romance justify its existence in games? A lot of people in this thread have been asking, "why must there be gay characters?", or sentiments to that effect, as if gay characters/romances/sub-plots must have a damn good reason for being there.

My aim was to illustrate that straight romances are taken for granted, and gay ones are held to a very different standard.

You're misunderstanding. Why should someone put a homosexual character in a game if they want to put in a heterosexual one? If they don't need a reason to be there then you are also saying there's no reason to put them there either. This isn't like the issue with female representation in games, homosexuals do not make up about half the population so there's no reason to increase the number of them as adding more won't make the stories any more realistic.

 

[Miss G.]

I'd like a Bi, Gay, or Lesbian character in a game that isn't a love interest.
That'd be nice.

Then play The Last of Us and enjoy all that is Bill for the amount of time he's with you on your journey. You might like it.

does bills homosexuality stem from the fact that perhaps there wasn't many female survivors around and the only person he has been in contact with for years is another man? you know like in prison men who on the outside were straight will have sex with other men purely due to the fact they are there for life.

Doesn't seem so. He trades with people, so it's not like he's never come across anyone else, paranoia be damned. Also, I'm pretty sure his gay porn stash wasn't something he just found in his church safe-house randomly one day and decided to keep around if he wasn't already into men, especially since this is a whole town he could loot for straight porn. As far as I know, from the suicide note, he and Frank parted ways because Frank wanted to leave the town and Bill wanted to stay. If it was just convenience on Bill's part, why introduce him as someone he cared about to Joel or get so worked up about it when they find him dead, especially in a world where human lives are so cheap, and for Frank, why even bother leaving a note to ease the pain (in an Old Yeller way) should Bill came across it? That's what I get out of it.

 

[Cybylt]

I don't want to play as a gay man in a game. I don't like playing as a female either. Thats probably why things like that are optional and can be skipped.

What if I don't want to play as a straight man? Can I skip that in Dead Space? Or Gears of War? Or Grand Theft Auto?

Woah, woah, woah, Marcus and Dom aren't a couple? There is tons more chemistry between them than the rest of the series' cast combined on top of all of the co-op achievements being some kind of innuendo about the two.

They were just in the closet because they live in a society that requires procreation to survive.

Then I'm sure Dom became depressed and suicidal when his wife died because he was so deep in the closet. If anything, the chemistry between Dom and Marcus is of the stereotypical "bromance" fair. I never got any romantic/sexual undertones from their interaction, so I REALLY doubt either one of them are homosexual. Especially Dom for the whole "really loved his wife" thing.

He was depressed because society couldn't accept their love. Marcus toughed it out because that's what he does, but Dom is the more emotional of the two and took it hard.

 

[Silvanus]

not for anything, but you have to realize that being straight is the norm, and in fact, we are evolutionary inclined to be so for the sake of baby making. Being heterosexual is standard, and so that is the way it is in games. If you meet someone new IRL, you don't assume gay until proven straight, its the other way around. As such, it makes sense to say "if a character is going to be gay, it needs to be a central aspect of his character" because there are unique challenges about being gay that will never exist for straight people. By necessity, there must be different standards.

Of course I realise heterosexuality is the norm-- it'd be hard to miss! You'll notice, however, that I'm not asking that for homosexual protagonists to become the new "norm"; I'll be happy with just a few.

I do not see the logic in saying, "if a character is gay, it needs to be a central aspect of his character", because I see nothing that excludes gay people from quests/ wars/ zombie apocalypses/ any other video game premise.

You're misunderstanding. Why should someone put a homosexual character in a game if they want to put in a heterosexual one? If they don't need a reason to be there then you are also saying there's no reason to put them there either. This isn't like the issue with female representation in games, homosexuals do not make up about half the population so there's no reason to increase the number of them as adding more won't make the stories any more realistic.

Homosexuals make up more than 0% of the population, so the current proportion of protagonists is indeed unrealistic.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

Serious question. Which AAA gaming company operates without profit? Now which AAA gaming companies operate without being fair? The point is that being fair is optional, as are many of these other metrics you refer to. Producing a profit, is not an option, it is an imperative. Therefore every other consideration takes a backseat to profit. Especially the moment shareholders get involved, expecting their quarterly dividends.

And you're missing the point. Businesses can earn profit and be fair. Excusing the "be fair" part with a business is business (what does that even mean) assertion is bull. Also, have you never heard of nonprofit organizations?

A non-profit organization has register with the Government in order to get certain tax breaks, they won't last long otherwise. Good luck getting the Government to give you non-profit status as a video-game developer.

A business CAN earn a profit and be fair, the question is why should they? If the marketing researchers tell the head honchos that they estimate their new game will sell 3 million copies with a straight white protagonist and make a big profit, or will sell 2 million copies with a black lesbian protagonist and make a medium profit, why is it the companies job to give up profit in the name of 'fairness'?

Also, the difference between criticism such as "I think FPS games are too linear these days" and "game companies need to put more gay/black/female/muslim/whatever characters in them" is that no one ever says that the games industry makes linear FPS games because the industry is racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. etc., while people say that all the time in regards to the second criticism. One of them is insulting and criticizing the product, the other is insulting and criticizing the product AND the people who are making the product.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

You're misunderstanding. Why should someone put a homosexual character in a game if they want to put in a heterosexual one? If they don't need a reason to be there then you are also saying there's no reason to put them there either. This isn't like the issue with female representation in games, homosexuals do not make up about half the population so there's no reason to increase the number of them as adding more won't make the stories any more realistic.

Homosexuals make up more than 0% of the population, so the current proportion of protagonists is indeed unrealistic.

What does them being the protagonist have to do with them being represented? Or do you think that there is one person in the whole world right now that's the protagonist for the story of our universe? Several games have homosexuals in them, why does them being the protagonist matter so much when a lot of protagonist's love lives aren't even brought up in games? As I said before, I can think of only two games that have an aspie in them that I've ever played and neither of them featured the aspie as the PC. I should technically have more to complain about than you since my minority has even LESS representation but I'm not going to start complaining about there not being a PC aspie in games, it'll happen when it happens.

I'd rather someone that actually WANTS to make a homosexual protagonist in a game try to make one than try to pester someone who doesn't into doing it. The former will likely lead to a much better character than the later.

 

[jehk]

A business CAN earn a profit and be fair, the question is why should they?

Do you think all people who run businesses are amoral and greedy? Businesses are composed of people. People that want more than to just make money at all costs.

The rather large corporation I work is like this. They put a ton of money back into the community because that's the kind of world they want to live in (ie helping people).

I know greed is often synonymous with corporate culture but its far from universal.

 

[The_Echo]

That's entirely my point.

Why must the idea of gay romance justify its existence in games? A lot of people in this thread have been asking, "why must there be gay characters?", or sentiments to that effect, as if gay characters/romances/sub-plots must have a damn good reason for being there.

My aim was to illustrate that straight romances are taken for granted, and gay ones are held to a very different standard.

Well, like I said in an earlier post: we can't expect homonormality in games until we have it in real life.

We question the need for gay characters because, quite frankly, sexuality plays little to no part in many games. And with the current sociopolitical air surrounding LGBT issues, inserting gay characters into any medium is kind of a risky endeavor, and something that doesn't get handled very well very often (we get the token gay in the same way we get the token black or token female).

Though that's not to say we don't question heterosexual romances, either. Especially in games, forced and token romances are fairly prevalent. Sometimes it feels like you can't enjoy anything without the protagonist making googly-eyes at someone (or in some cases, the fans insisting that it happens).

 

[Silvanus]

Well, like I said in an earlier post: we can't expect homonormality in games until we have it in real life.

We question the need for gay characters because, quite frankly, sexuality plays little to no part in many games. And with the current sociopolitical air surrounding LGBT issues, inserting gay characters into any medium is kind of a risky endeavor, and something that doesn't get handled very well very often (we get the token gay in the same way we get the token black or token female).

As I said earlier; it's not homonormativity that I want. I'd be happy with just one or two. I'm not looking to turn the tables here.

Sexuality plays little to no part; romance frequently plays a large role. When Tidus and Yuna got together, it wasn't sexuality playing a part in the game. It was romance.

 

[bug_of_war]

When did anyone advocate having characters "flaunt their sexuality"?!

Funny, how nobody accused Tidus or Isaac Clarke of "flaunting their sexuality"; how it was just romance in those games. If its straight, it's "romance" (or, more often, not even mentioned at all); if it's gay, it's "flaunting sexuality".

So many straight people insisting that, because they don't have a problem, no problem exists for anybody (or is unimportant enough to ignore).

It's funny cause I don't remember writing about Tidus or Issac Clarke, or even giving an example of a character flaunting their sexuality, just that I find the act of doing so unnecessary in video games. As I said before, I cringe enough at romance scenes as is, to watch them focus the story/a portion of it on a character's sexuality would make me uncomfortable be them straight or gay, I don't play a game for the story. I admit, I feel more comfortable playing as a straight male character and that's because it makes it easier for me to identify with, hell I even find playing as a female character less enjoyable.

 

[Silvanus]

It's funny cause I don't remember writing about Tidus or Issac Clarke

That's because you didn't give those examples. Those were my examples.

or even giving an example of a character flaunting their sexuality, just that I find the act of doing so unnecessary in video games. As I said before, I cringe enough at romance scenes as is, to watch them focus the story/a portion of it on a character's sexuality would make me uncomfortable be them straight or gay, I don't play a game for the story. I admit, I feel more comfortable playing as a straight male character and that's because it makes it easier for me to identify with, hell I even find playing as a female character less enjoyable.

That last part, "I feel more comfortable playing as a straight male character", is the important sentence here. That's fine! Most people feel the same way!

But why should a gay person not have a single damn game in which they can feel the same way?

 

[Specter Von Baren]

It's funny cause I don't remember writing about Tidus or Issac Clarke

That's because you didn't give those examples. Those were my examples.

or even giving an example of a character flaunting their sexuality, just that I find the act of doing so unnecessary in video games. As I said before, I cringe enough at romance scenes as is, to watch them focus the story/a portion of it on a character's sexuality would make me uncomfortable be them straight or gay, I don't play a game for the story. I admit, I feel more comfortable playing as a straight male character and that's because it makes it easier for me to identify with, hell I even find playing as a female character less enjoyable.

That last part, "I feel more comfortable playing as a straight male character", is the important sentence here. That's fine! Most people feel the same way!

But why should a gay person not have a single damn game in which they can feel the same way?

I was under the impression that games like Saints Row 4 and Mass Effect 3 had it so the PC can be homosexual.

 

[Aramis Night]

Serious question. Which AAA gaming company operates without profit? Now which AAA gaming companies operate without being fair? The point is that being fair is optional, as are many of these other metrics you refer to. Producing a profit, is not an option, it is an imperative. Therefore every other consideration takes a backseat to profit. Especially the moment shareholders get involved, expecting their quarterly dividends.

And you're missing the point. Businesses can earn profit and be fair. Excusing the "be fair" part with a business is business (what does that even mean) assertion is bull. Also, have you never heard of nonprofit organizations?

I have heard of nonprofit organizations. What i have not heard of is a nonprofit video game company that is still with us producing AAA games. Any company big enough to produce AAA games will be big enough to have shareholders. The moment that happens, fairness flies out the window since convincing shareholders to exchange their share of the corporate profits they feel entitled to for the sake of fairness tends not to fly. Why do you think it is that every company is obsessed with making more money every quarter than they did last year? Even when they are still pulling in millions/billions in profits. Because when you have shareholders, it isn't enough to just be profitable. You have to grow that profit every year, or the stock stagnates and the shares do not continue to increase in value. Stockholders often expect to get paid just for having the stock. They view it less as an investment and more like a replicating paycheck. AAA developers and the corporations they work for are hamstrung by this fact. If they fail to do everything in their power to create as much profit as possible, it will be their necks. Do not look to the AAA company's to take these risks.

 

[jehk]

I was under the impression that games like Saints Row 4 and Mass Effect 3 had it so the PC can be homosexual.

Sure but can you think of a single protagonist that was written as gay?

 

[jehk]

Serious question. Which AAA gaming company operates without profit? Now which AAA gaming companies operate without being fair? The point is that being fair is optional, as are many of these other metrics you refer to. Producing a profit, is not an option, it is an imperative. Therefore every other consideration takes a backseat to profit. Especially the moment shareholders get involved, expecting their quarterly dividends.

And you're missing the point. Businesses can earn profit and be fair. Excusing the "be fair" part with a business is business (what does that even mean) assertion is bull. Also, have you never heard of nonprofit organizations?

I have heard of nonprofit organizations. What i have not heard of is a nonprofit video game company that is still with us producing AAA games. Any company big enough to produce AAA games will be big enough to have shareholders. The moment that happens, fairness flies out the window since convincing shareholders to exchange their share of the corporate profits they feel entitled to for the sake of fairness tends not to fly. Why do you think it is that every company is obsessed with making more money every quarter than they did last year? Even when they are still pulling in millions/billions in profits. Because when you have shareholders, it isn't enough to just be profitable. You have to grow that profit every year, or the stock stagnates and the shares do not continue to increase in value. Stockholders often expect to get paid just for having the stock. They view it less as an investment and more like a replicating paycheck. AAA developers and the corporations they work for are hamstrung by this fact. If they fail to do everything in their power to create as much profit as possible, it will be their necks. Do not look to the AAA company's to take these risks.

Yeah, yeah, same excuses different words. Companies, big companies exist and they don't all do this. This is a fiction. All profit doesn't just automatically go back to shareholders. Some is reinvested back in the company, some given to charity, some back to the stockholders and sometimes nothing happens (ie they sit on the money). A lot things are done with the profits companies earn.

 

[Silvanus]

snippity

A great many books feature gay protagonists; a number of films (though a smaller proportion, I'd bet) have them, too.

Their publishing companies haven't folded just yet.

Do you imagine gamers to be that much more dominantly straight than readers or cinema-goers?

I was under the impression that games like Saints Row 4 and Mass Effect 3 had it so the PC can be homosexual.

They do. Those that allow you to choose your sexuality are a step forward, I have to admit.

But you can see how the choice is pretty restricted, if the only option to have a gay character is to spend time in the "Imagine it your way" box. I'm sure some gay gamers would enjoy playing something with a romantic plot actually written and plotted. I might even find it fun myself.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

I was under the impression that games like Saints Row 4 and Mass Effect 3 had it so the PC can be homosexual.

Sure but can you think of a single protagonist that was written as gay?

His/her question was, "But why should a gay person not have a single damn game in which they can feel the same way?"

I gave two examples of why that isn't true.