Heteronormaltivity in games

[Aramis Night]

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic.

Excusing the homogeneity of video game characters with "business is business" is pretty unsympathetic. A sympathetic answer would be "maybe there should be a few more gay/female video game characters".

Also, take your own advice. Figure out what companies work before you dictate it to others.

Sympathy does not in fact require you to agree with a person. You could be sympathetic with a child that doesn't like going to the dentist because they think tooth work is uncomfortable and painful and still not agree that they shouldn't go to the dentist.

So saying "business is business" is sympathetic then?

*sigh*

sym·pa·thy
ˈsimpəTHē
noun
noun: sympathy

1.
feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.
"they had great sympathy for the flood victims"

2.
understanding between people; common feeling.
"the special sympathy between the two boys was obvious to all"

The word you're looking for is kindness, not sympathy.

What? Number 2 totally works.

Using "business is business" to excuse video game character homogeneity totally demonstrates a lack of understanding between people.

Yes, because people have never conducted business between themselves. Therefore i couldn't possibly understand that relationship.

 

[jehk]

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic.

Excusing the homogeneity of video game characters with "business is business" is pretty unsympathetic. A sympathetic answer would be "maybe there should be a few more gay/female video game characters".

Also, take your own advice. Figure out how companies work before you dictate it to others.

I'm sympathetic enough to offer more than a feel good circle jerk about the way things should be. And you're in no position to be telling me about running a business. You have offered no insights outside of "But they don't have to make profit, they should be fair." so you'll forgive me for not taking your business acumen seriously. But hey, if your bank is so generous, then by all means, take a loan out and make the game you want to make. I'm sure your current employer will be very supportive.

I work on projects that connect our employees with the community. If I thought a game could do that they would certainly support me.

Your "business is business" assertion does demonstrate your deft understand on corporation culture and business practices.

You keep stating "Business is Business" as though i actually ever used those words. Though I'll follow through on it i suppose. At least then maybe you'll make a point against this strawman you want to battle so much. Community outreach is good PR. Good PR is in the interests of your banks profits, no matter how much you want to pretend its entirely altruistic. People like to think that a company they give money to gives a damn about them on some level. It is in your employer's interest to make sure you drink the kool aid, because you will do a better job of fooling shills if you're one as well. I'm guessing you must be very good at your job.

Haha! Whatever you say Glenn Beck. Drink the kool aid. Really guy? You sound like a conspiracy crackpot.

 

[jehk]

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic.

Excusing the homogeneity of video game characters with "business is business" is pretty unsympathetic. A sympathetic answer would be "maybe there should be a few more gay/female video game characters".

Also, take your own advice. Figure out what companies work before you dictate it to others.

Sympathy does not in fact require you to agree with a person. You could be sympathetic with a child that doesn't like going to the dentist because they think tooth work is uncomfortable and painful and still not agree that they shouldn't go to the dentist.

So saying "business is business" is sympathetic then?

*sigh*

sym·pa·thy
ˈsimpəTHē
noun
noun: sympathy

1.
feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.
"they had great sympathy for the flood victims"

2.
understanding between people; common feeling.
"the special sympathy between the two boys was obvious to all"

The word you're looking for is kindness, not sympathy.

What? Number 2 totally works.

Using "business is business" to excuse video game character homogeneity totally demonstrates a lack of understanding between people.

Yes, because people have never conducted business between themselves. Therefore i couldn't possibly understand that relationship.

I really have no idea where you're coming from. Did I do a misquote? My problem in this thread has been using the excuse of "business is business - profits are king" to dismiss concerns from women and gays about video game character homogeneity.

 

[Aramis Night]

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic.

Excusing the homogeneity of video game characters with "business is business" is pretty unsympathetic. A sympathetic answer would be "maybe there should be a few more gay/female video game characters".

Also, take your own advice. Figure out how companies work before you dictate it to others.

I'm sympathetic enough to offer more than a feel good circle jerk about the way things should be. And you're in no position to be telling me about running a business. You have offered no insights outside of "But they don't have to make profit, they should be fair." so you'll forgive me for not taking your business acumen seriously. But hey, if your bank is so generous, then by all means, take a loan out and make the game you want to make. I'm sure your current employer will be very supportive.

I work on projects that connect our employees with the community. If I thought a game could do that they would certainly support me.

Your "business is business" assertion does demonstrate your deft understand on corporation culture and business practices.

You keep stating "Business is Business" as though i actually ever used those words. Though I'll follow through on it i suppose. At least then maybe you'll make a point against this strawman you want to battle so much. Community outreach is good PR. Good PR is in the interests of your banks profits, no matter how much you want to pretend its entirely altruistic. People like to think that a company they give money to gives a damn about them on some level. It is in your employer's interest to make sure you drink the kool aid, because you will do a better job of fooling shills if you're one as well. I'm guessing you must be very good at your job.

Haha! Whatever you say Glenn Beck. Drink the kool aid. Really guy? You sound like a conspiracy crackpot.

Really? Glen Beck? That's your argument. Yes, large businesses operate on a profit motive. IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!

 

[Dango]

I don't want to play as a gay man in a game. I don't like playing as a female either. Thats probably why things like that are optional and can be skipped.

What if I don't want to play as a straight man? Can I skip that in Dead Space? Or Gears of War? Or Grand Theft Auto?

Then honestly who cares. I don't want to come off as harsh, but they're video games, and at that, they're video games where the main mechanics revolve around killing things, so the protagonist's sexuality isn't going to determine much of what goes on during the game.

Edit: I'm also a bit perplexed at the idea of someone avoiding the game because they're gay and the game features a heterosexual romance. I just don't like the idea of someone who asks for their romantic relationships to be approved of when they can't tolerate the sexual preference of a fictional character. Basically, if you do love someone in real life, you should be able to understand and sympathize with another character who's in love, even if they don't share your sexual preference.

 

[Silvanus]

When I say, "why can't a game just be that, a game" it's suppose to imply "Why does sexuality matter in a game?". That means who cares if they are straight, gay or bi, just play the game and enjoy the game. You don't play basketball because you wanna fuck someone or find out if someone is gay, straight or bi. All I'm saying is that why can't games just be games, why do we have to have the sexuality of the character come into question?

For the third (fourth?) time, sexuality does not matter in a game. Romance often does, and there's no reason it should always be straight.

Also, the answer to why a character isn't specifically written as being gay is because being gay is not common. This also ties into the whole whom should be represented more first so...

It's hardly some rare, errant phenomenon.

As to "whom should be represented more", there's no bloody question. I don't want gay people as protagonists more often than straight people. I'd just like one or two.

Yes, it is, but just read up on really any cultures history and you will see that when stacked up women are treated poorly much more often than homosexuals. I'm not saying that currently in some countries gays aren't treated as unequal (Hell, my country wont allow them to marry) all I'm saying is that I think in terms of a game a female character would be more refreshing and seem less "check list" than a gay character.

"More refreshing"? Don't get me wrong, I'm in favour of more well-rounded female protagonists, but a number exist already. Lara Croft, Samus, Yuna & Lulu, Chell, Faith.

Notice how I didn't have to resort, at any point, to pointing out games that let us make the protagonists however we want, like the Elder Scrolls series or Mass Effect. Because it's not the same.

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic. I just don't understand what is to be gained by being naive. I just have little patience for clinging to fantasy lands we clearly don't live in. You don't change things by acting ignorant of the way the world is. People here seem to expect to be understood but have so little interest in understanding others. Like in this case, they don't seem to have any interest in learning how companies operate, but want to dictate what they should be doing.

I'm not ignorant of the way the world is. It just seems to me that pointing out how companies exist to make a profit is just restating the problem.

It's not naive to discuss how we'd like things a bit differently.

 

[Aramis Night]

When I say, "why can't a game just be that, a game" it's suppose to imply "Why does sexuality matter in a game?". That means who cares if they are straight, gay or bi, just play the game and enjoy the game. You don't play basketball because you wanna fuck someone or find out if someone is gay, straight or bi. All I'm saying is that why can't games just be games, why do we have to have the sexuality of the character come into question?

For the third (fourth?) time, sexuality does not matter in a game. Romance often does, and there's no reason it should always be straight.

Also, the answer to why a character isn't specifically written as being gay is because being gay is not common. This also ties into the whole whom should be represented more first so...

It's hardly some rare, errant phenomenon.

As to "whom should be represented more", there's no bloody question. I don't want gay people as protagonists more often than straight people. I'd just like one or two.

Yes, it is, but just read up on really any cultures history and you will see that when stacked up women are treated poorly much more often than homosexuals. I'm not saying that currently in some countries gays aren't treated as unequal (Hell, my country wont allow them to marry) all I'm saying is that I think in terms of a game a female character would be more refreshing and seem less "check list" than a gay character.

"More refreshing"? Don't get me wrong, I'm in favour of more well-rounded female protagonists, but a number exist already. Lara Croft, Samus, Yuna & Lulu, Chell, Faith.

Notice how I didn't have to resort, at any point, to pointing out games that let us make the protagonists however we want, like the Elder Scrolls series or Mass Effect. Because it's not the same.

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic. I just don't understand what is to be gained by being naive. I just have little patience for clinging to fantasy lands we clearly don't live in. You don't change things by acting ignorant of the way the world is. People here seem to expect to be understood but have so little interest in understanding others. Like in this case, they don't seem to have any interest in learning how companies operate, but want to dictate what they should be doing.

I'm not ignorant of the way the world is. It just seems to me that pointing out how companies exist to make a profit is just restating the problem.

It's not naive to discuss how we'd like things a bit differently.

I assumed people wanted workable solutions. Trying to convince large AAA game companies to not run on a profit motive is like convincing fish to live on land. Seems like it would be easier to either somehow convince a large company to take the risk appealing to its profit motive. Or to create your own game company from the bottom up and prove that games of the type you want made are profitable and fill the niche. Most of the AAA game developers of today were once small themselves. Attempting to implement a worldwide socialist corporate structure for the sake of diversity quota's in game protagonist development seems like a much taller order by comparison (and i say that as someone who has little against socialism).

 

[bug_of_war]

For the third (fourth?) time, sexuality does not matter in a game. Romance often does, and there's no reason it should always be straight.

The only game in which I have ever seen romance actually have some form of impact was The Darkness and it's sequel. That's it. Romance can be skipped in Mass Effect, Dragon Age and Skyrim, games like Gears of War, Resident Evil, Tekken, Mortal Kombat, Spec Ops: The Line, Chivalry: Medieval Warfare, Left 4 Dead, Call of Duty and Pokemon all are quite good games/series that lack romance options. The idea that romance story lines make games better is unfounded as most romance plots are just sideline crap. The Darkness interwove the romance story with the main game play goal, other than that I can't name one game where in which romance actually mattered.

It's hardly some rare, errant phenomenon.

As to "whom should be represented more", there's no bloody question. I don't want gay people as protagonists more often than straight people. I'd just like one or two.

No being gay isn't a rare thing, but it is in the minority of the demographic of people. Game companies focus their money towards making a story for a group of people. Try and think of it like this, you wouldn't find an article about how to shave your beard efficiently in a teenage girl's magazine.

As another person has said before, if you want a game where the main protagonist is gay, no choice about it, then you are going to have to make that game yourself. If you want something done, do it yourself, don't moan until someone does it for you.

"More refreshing"? Don't get me wrong, I'm in favour of more well-rounded female protagonists, but a number exist already. Lara Croft, Samus, Yuna & Lulu, Chell, Faith.

Notice how I didn't have to resort, at any point, to pointing out games that let us make the protagonists however we want, like the Elder Scrolls series or Mass Effect. Because it's not the same.

Samus' character was ruined in Other M, Chell is hardly a character at all, more a blank slate that just so happens to have a female body, and Faith from Mirror's Edge wasn't really fleshed out much at all. You keep saying RPG characters are not the same, but you seem to ignore that by giving the player the option to be gay they truly are trying to make a game to appeal to everyone. Mass Effect's Fem Shep is a good, female character, as is gay Shep in ME3. As for Skyrim, the marriage system was poorly integrated and probably could have been left out entirely, but at least they gave you the option to be gay.

You can't have your cake and eat it as well, there's always gotta be compromise, and seeing as how the majority of gamers are straight, I think people should feel damn lucky that there are RPGs that give you a choice in the matter of your character's sexuality.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic.

Excusing the homogeneity of video game characters with "business is business" is pretty unsympathetic. A sympathetic answer would be "maybe there should be a few more gay/female video game characters".

Also, take your own advice. Figure out what companies work before you dictate it to others.

Sympathy does not in fact require you to agree with a person. You could be sympathetic with a child that doesn't like going to the dentist because they think tooth work is uncomfortable and painful and still not agree that they shouldn't go to the dentist.

So saying "business is business" is sympathetic then?

*sigh*

sym·pa·thy
ˈsimpəTHē
noun
noun: sympathy

1.
feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.
"they had great sympathy for the flood victims"

2.
understanding between people; common feeling.
"the special sympathy between the two boys was obvious to all"

The word you're looking for is kindness, not sympathy.

What? Number 2 totally works.

Using "business is business" to excuse video game character homogeneity totally demonstrates a lack of understanding between people.

Okay, let me try explaining it again. A soldier can feel sympathy for the other side in a war, goodness knows that plenty of people in the American Civil War weren't comfortable fighting other people of their country, sometimes people that were their family members, and I know about a ton of stories of sides in the World Wars sometimes talking with each other before they had to go to battle the next day. Sympathy means you feel something about another person's pain, but it doesn't mean you have to speak nicely to someone. A person can feel sympathy for another and still explain to them the harshness of reality.

 

[Silvanus]

Attempting to implement a worldwide socialist corporate structure for the sake of diversity quota's in game protagonist development seems like a much taller order by comparison (and i say that as someone who has little against socialism).

What?!

Worldwide socialism, diversity quotas...

I... I just suggested something I'd like to see a bit more of in video games, Aramis. That's all. I'm not a revolutionary.

The only game in which I have ever seen romance actually have some form of impact was The Darkness and it's sequel. That's it. Romance can be skipped in Mass Effect, Dragon Age and Skyrim, games like Gears of War, Resident Evil, Tekken, Mortal Kombat, Spec Ops: The Line, Chivalry: Medieval Warfare, Left 4 Dead, Call of Duty and Pokemon all are quite good games/series that lack romance options. The idea that romance story lines make games better is unfounded as most romance plots are just sideline crap. The Darkness interwove the romance story with the main game play goal, other than that I can't name one game where in which romance actually mattered.

Seriously? Your argument is simply that romance isn't there?

Alright, let's look at my game shelf. FF7, 8 & X, Nightfall, Dead Space (mostly #1), Heavy Rain, Shadow of the Colossus, the Uncharted series, Red Dead, Braid.

That's only looking at games I have direct experience with, and excluding games based on other media.

No being gay isn't a rare thing, but it is in the minority of the demographic of people. Game companies focus their money towards making a story for a group of people. Try and think of it like this, you wouldn't find an article about how to shave your beard efficiently in a teenage girl's magazine.

Teenage girls' magazines are tailored solely to teenage girls. Gamers are not exclusively straight people.

In a different magazine published partially for men, I'd expect one or two articles for them, yes.

(And, to continue the metaphor: Games that let you play the romances gay if you want, like Skyrim, are the equivalent of articles written with gender-neutral pronouns. You can see how it doesn't cut it to say, "Well, you can imagine these articles are for men, because they use gender-neutral terms!")

Samus' character was ruined in Other M, Chell is hardly a character at all, more a blank slate that just so happens to have a female body, and Faith from Mirror's Edge wasn't really fleshed out much at all. You keep saying RPG characters are not the same, but you seem to ignore that by giving the player the option to be gay they truly are trying to make a game to appeal to everyone. Mass Effect's Fem Shep is a good, female character, as is gay Shep in ME3. As for Skyrim, the marriage system was poorly integrated and probably could have been left out entirely, but at least they gave you the option to be gay.

That's why I stated, earlier, that I thought it was good when they did that.

But games with scripted romances are a different issue.

You can't have your cake and eat it as well, there's always gotta be compromise, and seeing as how the majority of gamers are straight, I think people should feel damn lucky that there are RPGs that give you a choice in the matter of your character's sexuality.

That's your compromise? "Sure, all written protagonist romances are tailored to me and not you, but just shut up and be happy with what you get"?

I think you might take it a little bit for granted that 98% of media is tailored to your liking, Bug.

 

[jehk]

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic.

Excusing the homogeneity of video game characters with "business is business" is pretty unsympathetic. A sympathetic answer would be "maybe there should be a few more gay/female video game characters".

Also, take your own advice. Figure out how companies work before you dictate it to others.

I'm sympathetic enough to offer more than a feel good circle jerk about the way things should be. And you're in no position to be telling me about running a business. You have offered no insights outside of "But they don't have to make profit, they should be fair." so you'll forgive me for not taking your business acumen seriously. But hey, if your bank is so generous, then by all means, take a loan out and make the game you want to make. I'm sure your current employer will be very supportive.

I work on projects that connect our employees with the community. If I thought a game could do that they would certainly support me.

Your "business is business" assertion does demonstrate your deft understand on corporation culture and business practices.

You keep stating "Business is Business" as though i actually ever used those words. Though I'll follow through on it i suppose. At least then maybe you'll make a point against this strawman you want to battle so much. Community outreach is good PR. Good PR is in the interests of your banks profits, no matter how much you want to pretend its entirely altruistic. People like to think that a company they give money to gives a damn about them on some level. It is in your employer's interest to make sure you drink the kool aid, because you will do a better job of fooling shills if you're one as well. I'm guessing you must be very good at your job.

Haha! Whatever you say Glenn Beck. Drink the kool aid. Really guy? You sound like a conspiracy crackpot.

Really? Glen Beck? That's your argument. Yes, large businesses operate on a profit motive. IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!

Its not my argument. I'm ridiculing you because you're being ridiculous with the kool aid and corporate shill comments. You're in crackpot territory with your claims that all businesses do nothing by seek profit at all costs. It's pretty easy to find contradictory evidence. But yeah, whatever floats your boat.

 

[jehk]

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic.

Excusing the homogeneity of video game characters with "business is business" is pretty unsympathetic. A sympathetic answer would be "maybe there should be a few more gay/female video game characters".

Also, take your own advice. Figure out what companies work before you dictate it to others.

Sympathy does not in fact require you to agree with a person. You could be sympathetic with a child that doesn't like going to the dentist because they think tooth work is uncomfortable and painful and still not agree that they shouldn't go to the dentist.

So saying "business is business" is sympathetic then?

*sigh*

sym·pa·thy
ˈsimpəTHē
noun
noun: sympathy

1.
feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.
"they had great sympathy for the flood victims"

2.
understanding between people; common feeling.
"the special sympathy between the two boys was obvious to all"

The word you're looking for is kindness, not sympathy.

What? Number 2 totally works.

Using "business is business" to excuse video game character homogeneity totally demonstrates a lack of understanding between people.

Okay, let me try explaining it again. A soldier can feel sympathy for the other side in a war, goodness knows that plenty of people in the American Civil War weren't comfortable fighting other people of their country, sometimes people that were their family members, and I know about a ton of stories of sides in the World Wars sometimes talking with each other before they had to go to battle the next day. Sympathy means you feel something about another person's pain, but it doesn't mean you have to speak nicely to someone. A person can feel sympathy for another and still explain to them the harshness of reality.

I'm reminded of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbBAqaf6cIg

Just more bull excuses for maintaining privilege I guess. Hopefully people will realize its not a zero sum game and they don't have to resort to such excuses.

 

[Aramis Night]

Attempting to implement a worldwide socialist corporate structure for the sake of diversity quota's in game protagonist development seems like a much taller order by comparison (and i say that as someone who has little against socialism).

What?!

Worldwide socialism, diversity quotas...

I... I just suggested something I'd like to see a bit more of in video games, Aramis. That's all. I'm not a revolutionary.

The only game in which I have ever seen romance actually have some form of impact was The Darkness and it's sequel. That's it. Romance can be skipped in Mass Effect, Dragon Age and Skyrim, games like Gears of War, Resident Evil, Tekken, Mortal Kombat, Spec Ops: The Line, Chivalry: Medieval Warfare, Left 4 Dead, Call of Duty and Pokemon all are quite good games/series that lack romance options. The idea that romance story lines make games better is unfounded as most romance plots are just sideline crap. The Darkness interwove the romance story with the main game play goal, other than that I can't name one game where in which romance actually mattered.

Seriously? Your argument is simply that romance isn't there?

Alright, let's look at my game shelf. FF7, 8 & X, Nightfall, Dead Space (mostly #1), Heavy Rain, Shadow of the Colossus, the Uncharted series, Red Dead, Braid.

That's only looking at games I have direct experience with, and excluding games based on other media.

No being gay isn't a rare thing, but it is in the minority of the demographic of people. Game companies focus their money towards making a story for a group of people. Try and think of it like this, you wouldn't find an article about how to shave your beard efficiently in a teenage girl's magazine.

Teenage girls' magazines are tailored solely to teenage girls. Gamers are not exclusively straight people. In a magazine published partially for men, I'd expect one or two articles for them, yes.

Samus' character was ruined in Other M, Chell is hardly a character at all, more a blank slate that just so happens to have a female body, and Faith from Mirror's Edge wasn't really fleshed out much at all. You keep saying RPG characters are not the same, but you seem to ignore that by giving the player the option to be gay they truly are trying to make a game to appeal to everyone. Mass Effect's Fem Shep is a good, female character, as is gay Shep in ME3. As for Skyrim, the marriage system was poorly integrated and probably could have been left out entirely, but at least they gave you the option to be gay.

That's why I stated, earlier, that I thought it was good when they did that.

But games with scripted romances are a different issue.

You can't have your cake and eat it as well, there's always gotta be compromise, and seeing as how the majority of gamers are straight, I think people should feel damn lucky that there are RPGs that give you a choice in the matter of your character's sexuality.

That's your compromise? "Sure, all written protagonist romances are tailored to me and not you, but just shut up and be happy with what you get"?

I think you might take it a little bit for granted that 98% of media is tailored to your liking, Bug.

Actually given that most of the women where I live are at least bi, I'm actually a little surprised that women's magazines don't focus more on gays. I had never had a relationship with a straight girl until I was 29, they are so rare. Still with her thankfully. Got tiring having to not only compete for women with other men, but with women as well. Its amazing I've ever managed to land any women with that much competition.

 

[Aramis Night]

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic.

Excusing the homogeneity of video game characters with "business is business" is pretty unsympathetic. A sympathetic answer would be "maybe there should be a few more gay/female video game characters".

Also, take your own advice. Figure out how companies work before you dictate it to others.

I'm sympathetic enough to offer more than a feel good circle jerk about the way things should be. And you're in no position to be telling me about running a business. You have offered no insights outside of "But they don't have to make profit, they should be fair." so you'll forgive me for not taking your business acumen seriously. But hey, if your bank is so generous, then by all means, take a loan out and make the game you want to make. I'm sure your current employer will be very supportive.

I work on projects that connect our employees with the community. If I thought a game could do that they would certainly support me.

Your "business is business" assertion does demonstrate your deft understand on corporation culture and business practices.

You keep stating "Business is Business" as though i actually ever used those words. Though I'll follow through on it i suppose. At least then maybe you'll make a point against this strawman you want to battle so much. Community outreach is good PR. Good PR is in the interests of your banks profits, no matter how much you want to pretend its entirely altruistic. People like to think that a company they give money to gives a damn about them on some level. It is in your employer's interest to make sure you drink the kool aid, because you will do a better job of fooling shills if you're one as well. I'm guessing you must be very good at your job.

Haha! Whatever you say Glenn Beck. Drink the kool aid. Really guy? You sound like a conspiracy crackpot.

Really? Glen Beck? That's your argument. Yes, large businesses operate on a profit motive. IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!

Its not my argument. I'm ridiculing you because you're being ridiculous with the kool aid and corporate shill comments. You're in crackpot territory with your claims that all businesses do nothing by seek profit at all costs. It's pretty easy to find contradictory evidence. But yeah, whatever floats your boat.

I don't doubt your a true believer. It's heartening tbh. Even cute. You do realize the Kool-Aid thing was established well before Glen Beck right? The Jonestown massacre was in 1978. As for your contradictory evidence, show me this mythical AAA developer that operates on happy thoughts and no profits, and ill happily concede defeat.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Actually given that most of the women where I live are at least bi, I'm actually a little surprised that women's magazines don't focus more on gays. I had never had a relationship with a straight girl until I was 29, they are so rare. Still with her thankfully. Got tiring having to not only compete for women with other men, but with women as well. Its amazing I've ever managed to land any women with that much competition.

Meh. A great many people, women and men, probably fall somewhere between 1-5 on the Kinsey Scale when it comes to their sexuality. Men are just less likely to admit it, either to others or themselves, as traditional notions of masculinity preclude any "feminine" traits or homosexual feelings.

 

[jehk]

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic.

Excusing the homogeneity of video game characters with "business is business" is pretty unsympathetic. A sympathetic answer would be "maybe there should be a few more gay/female video game characters".

Also, take your own advice. Figure out how companies work before you dictate it to others.

I'm sympathetic enough to offer more than a feel good circle jerk about the way things should be. And you're in no position to be telling me about running a business. You have offered no insights outside of "But they don't have to make profit, they should be fair." so you'll forgive me for not taking your business acumen seriously. But hey, if your bank is so generous, then by all means, take a loan out and make the game you want to make. I'm sure your current employer will be very supportive.

I work on projects that connect our employees with the community. If I thought a game could do that they would certainly support me.

Your "business is business" assertion does demonstrate your deft understand on corporation culture and business practices.

You keep stating "Business is Business" as though i actually ever used those words. Though I'll follow through on it i suppose. At least then maybe you'll make a point against this strawman you want to battle so much. Community outreach is good PR. Good PR is in the interests of your banks profits, no matter how much you want to pretend its entirely altruistic. People like to think that a company they give money to gives a damn about them on some level. It is in your employer's interest to make sure you drink the kool aid, because you will do a better job of fooling shills if you're one as well. I'm guessing you must be very good at your job.

Haha! Whatever you say Glenn Beck. Drink the kool aid. Really guy? You sound like a conspiracy crackpot.

Really? Glen Beck? That's your argument. Yes, large businesses operate on a profit motive. IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!

Its not my argument. I'm ridiculing you because you're being ridiculous with the kool aid and corporate shill comments. You're in crackpot territory with your claims that all businesses do nothing by seek profit at all costs. It's pretty easy to find contradictory evidence. But yeah, whatever floats your boat.

I don't doubt your a true believer. It's heartening tbh. Even cute. You do realize the Kool-Aid thing was established well before Glen Beck right? The Jonestown massacre was in 1978. As for your contradictory evidence, show me this mythical AAA developer that operates on happy thoughts and no profits, and ill happily concede defeat.

Pre-EA BioWare. Sure their games made profit but that's not why they operated. The original founders were a couple of doctors that just loved gaming. Go google for the interviews.

I'm sure you'll find some excuse for this. You are in crackpot land after all.

 

[Aramis Night]

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic.

Excusing the homogeneity of video game characters with "business is business" is pretty unsympathetic. A sympathetic answer would be "maybe there should be a few more gay/female video game characters".

Also, take your own advice. Figure out how companies work before you dictate it to others.

I'm sympathetic enough to offer more than a feel good circle jerk about the way things should be. And you're in no position to be telling me about running a business. You have offered no insights outside of "But they don't have to make profit, they should be fair." so you'll forgive me for not taking your business acumen seriously. But hey, if your bank is so generous, then by all means, take a loan out and make the game you want to make. I'm sure your current employer will be very supportive.

I work on projects that connect our employees with the community. If I thought a game could do that they would certainly support me.

Your "business is business" assertion does demonstrate your deft understand on corporation culture and business practices.

You keep stating "Business is Business" as though i actually ever used those words. Though I'll follow through on it i suppose. At least then maybe you'll make a point against this strawman you want to battle so much. Community outreach is good PR. Good PR is in the interests of your banks profits, no matter how much you want to pretend its entirely altruistic. People like to think that a company they give money to gives a damn about them on some level. It is in your employer's interest to make sure you drink the kool aid, because you will do a better job of fooling shills if you're one as well. I'm guessing you must be very good at your job.

Haha! Whatever you say Glenn Beck. Drink the kool aid. Really guy? You sound like a conspiracy crackpot.

Really? Glen Beck? That's your argument. Yes, large businesses operate on a profit motive. IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!

Its not my argument. I'm ridiculing you because you're being ridiculous with the kool aid and corporate shill comments. You're in crackpot territory with your claims that all businesses do nothing by seek profit at all costs. It's pretty easy to find contradictory evidence. But yeah, whatever floats your boat.

I don't doubt your a true believer. It's heartening tbh. Even cute. You do realize the Kool-Aid thing was established well before Glen Beck right? The Jonestown massacre was in 1978. As for your contradictory evidence, show me this mythical AAA developer that operates on happy thoughts and no profits, and ill happily concede defeat.

Pre-EA BioWare. Sure their games made profit but that's not why they operated. The original founders were a couple of doctors that just loved gaming. Go google for the interviews.

I'm sure you'll find some excuse for this. You are in crackpot land after all.

And where is Bio-ware now? Conspiracy!!! LOL's!!! It's the tradeoff every company makes when they get big enough to be publically traded. I work for a small business myself. The owner has no intention of ever becoming a large company even if we could. We satisfy a niche in the market ourselves. Our own business operates thanks to profit, but we tend to see it in terms of existing only as long as we fill a need. Profitability is how we are forced to measure that. But we won't change markets just to keep existing or break laws or rip off our customers. If we became a large company, big enough to for example make AAA games, then we would likely have to compromise our current values, just like Bio-ware has had to. When you go from business to large corporation, you are less likely to maintain complete control of your business and it spawns a life of its own. Just ask every business founder who was forced out of the leadership position they had in their own company.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Why would you assume that about me? Just because i understand a bit about the way the world works, doesn't mean i'm unsympathetic.

Excusing the homogeneity of video game characters with "business is business" is pretty unsympathetic. A sympathetic answer would be "maybe there should be a few more gay/female video game characters".

Also, take your own advice. Figure out what companies work before you dictate it to others.

Sympathy does not in fact require you to agree with a person. You could be sympathetic with a child that doesn't like going to the dentist because they think tooth work is uncomfortable and painful and still not agree that they shouldn't go to the dentist.

So saying "business is business" is sympathetic then?

*sigh*

sym·pa·thy
ˈsimpəTHē
noun
noun: sympathy

1.
feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.
"they had great sympathy for the flood victims"

2.
understanding between people; common feeling.
"the special sympathy between the two boys was obvious to all"

The word you're looking for is kindness, not sympathy.

What? Number 2 totally works.

Using "business is business" to excuse video game character homogeneity totally demonstrates a lack of understanding between people.

Okay, let me try explaining it again. A soldier can feel sympathy for the other side in a war, goodness knows that plenty of people in the American Civil War weren't comfortable fighting other people of their country, sometimes people that were their family members, and I know about a ton of stories of sides in the World Wars sometimes talking with each other before they had to go to battle the next day. Sympathy means you feel something about another person's pain, but it doesn't mean you have to speak nicely to someone. A person can feel sympathy for another and still explain to them the harshness of reality.

I'm reminded of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbBAqaf6cIg

Just more bull excuses for maintaining privilege I guess. Hopefully people will realize its not a zero sum game and they don't have to resort to such excuses.

Stop trying to paint yourself as if you're some sort of oppressed activist. Explaining how the world works does not equal, "Don't change things". Trying to explain that companies are usually more interested in money is not saying, "You can't change things", it's explaining that the way you're going about it won't work. Explanation does not equal excuse. I'm sick of people using these buzzwords as if they know what they're even talking about, minorities all across the world are going through far worse than having their minority be a freaking protagonist in a video-game and you're going to talk about it like it's some sort of oppressive plot to keep homosexuals down? Talk about this, discuss this but stop trying to make this out to be more than it is.