Heteronormaltivity in games

[Silvanus]

...let alone when they start making characters flaunt their sexuality.

When did anyone advocate having characters "flaunt their sexuality"?!

Funny, how nobody accused Tidus or Isaac Clarke of "flaunting their sexuality"; how it was just romance in those games. If its straight, it's "romance" (or, more often, not even mentioned at all); if it's gay, it's "flaunting sexuality".

So many straight people insisting that, because they don't have a problem, no problem exists for anybody (or is unimportant enough to ignore).

Honestly, if people want to see more gay protagonists, they should go make one. Same with female characters.

You're right. I'll go and mobilise the games company I own.

 

[ninjaRiv]

You're right. I'll go and mobilise the games company I own.

FINALLY.

But you could always just learn programming, create a small indie game and move from there taking small steps. Or, perhaps, collaborate with the many coders, artists, writers, designers etc that you can find all over the internet to achieve the goal. You don't need a games company.

 

[jehk]

It is not bigoted at all. When a "niche" group wants something that caters to that niche they should show to someone who could provide the commodity that there is a viable market.

Stamping feet and yelling "I wish I wish I wish I wish" isn't going to make it happen. The gaming industry isn't anyone's genie.

I'm really put off by the phrase "The gaming industry SHOULD make more games with gay PCs" because in the real world "should" has nothing to do with it. The gaming companies WILL make what they think will sell. At the moment, gay protagonists are not a selling point.

Yes, developers don't just pull ideas from a black holes. They do consider people who wish for certain features. Do you really think delivering on those wishes won't sell more copies?

I wish I could play GTA as a women. That would sell at least one more copy.

So, telling developer "I wish for this" is exactly how it happens. It's called feedback.

 

[Shingro]

Is it strange to anyone else how games are the only place where no one sees anything weird about telling artists what they should and shouldn't make? No? Just me?

That's a very good point, actually. But, considering recent stories (such as the developers of Remember Me having to fight to have a female protagonist), I wonder how many artists and writers have already been pushed around and told what to do by big publishers.

At the same time, it is a decent idea to encourage creators to do something they wouldn't normally do or want to do. But there's a fine line between encourage and bully.

It's very interesting you bring that up, we're aghast when we're told that a publisher forced the creative team to make this character male, or bald, or whatever, but if we heard that a publisher forced the creative team to make their lead character gay, or female, would we cheer?

Should we cheer?

 

[vIRL Nightmare]

Generally speaking Probably not something that is thought of too much in video games. They come up with a character design and then work from there.

 

[Kanova]

You can have it two ways, have a gay character that shows he is gay with a good plot and cutscenes or something, or just have it "Hey, I am gay."

If they did it the former, it would make a lot of people uncomfortable, like me, and if you did it the latter then what is the point of putting in a gay guy?

 

[Aramis Night]

Okay i'm a son of a ***** for being straight. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that the world cators to my needs in video games, tv, and movies.
Only I'm not. See when your really sorry your apologizing for something you intend to stop doing.

And honestly there is nothing I can do to give away these privileges. Nor would I even if i had 100s of people trying to shame me out of them. Why can't everyone say this who thinks it?

No one is asking you to give away privileges. Privilege and equality aren't zero sum. Women (and other minority groups) can have the same privileges across gaming as men do.

The best thing you could do is not act like a jerk. Instead of coming up with excuses like "Business is business" you could say "yes, you should enjoy the same privileges I do."

EDIT: Whoops. Screwed up the quote.

He's not making excuses. Business is Business. Economics has everything to do with it. What video game characters get made is not a matter of "privilege". It's a matter of cost benefits analysis. Nothing else. We can argue back and forth about how things "should be" all day, but it changes nothing to address the issue on those terms. Very little in the world operates under the rules of how things should be in regards to fairness, and even less so in business. Corporations don't care about your views on social justice. Money, that is all.

If you're willing to put your cash on the line, then join with others and make it happen. Kickstarter is great for this. But expecting larger companies to put up there money is silly. Any publicly traded corporation has a legal obligation to create profit for its shareholders. If a game like what you want was made, and it tanked, the shareholders would be in a position to make heads roll because of the loss and could blame its risk taking as to the source of their loss in profits.

I've been called out for being a bigot just for daring to bring up the PC term. If people think i'm a bigot, then you have no idea how much more bigoted other people are. It would indicate that the odds of lost revenue would be quite high. Don't expect others to take risks for you.

 

[ninjaRiv]

Is it strange to anyone else how games are the only place where no one sees anything weird about telling artists what they should and shouldn't make? No? Just me?

That's a very good point, actually. But, considering recent stories (such as the developers of Remember Me having to fight to have a female protagonist), I wonder how many artists and writers have already been pushed around and told what to do by big publishers.

At the same time, it is a decent idea to encourage creators to do something they wouldn't normally do or want to do. But there's a fine line between encourage and bully.

It's very interesting you bring that up, we're aghast when we're told that a publisher forced the creative team to make this character male, or bald, or whatever, but if we heard that a publisher forced the creative team to make their lead character gay, or female, would we cheer?

Should we cheer?

That's a very good question. Imo, it'd be a backwards step if publishers did that because the game would most likely be awful. But even if it's acceptable, I don't think we SHOULD cheer. I think plenty of people might, though.

 

[jehk]

Okay i'm a son of a ***** for being straight. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that the world cators to my needs in video games, tv, and movies.
Only I'm not. See when your really sorry your apologizing for something you intend to stop doing.

And honestly there is nothing I can do to give away these privileges. Nor would I even if i had 100s of people trying to shame me out of them. Why can't everyone say this who thinks it?

No one is asking you to give away privileges. Privilege and equality aren't zero sum. Women (and other minority groups) can have the same privileges across gaming as men do.

The best thing you could do is not act like a jerk. Instead of coming up with excuses like "Business is business" you could say "yes, you should enjoy the same privileges I do."

EDIT: Whoops. Screwed up the quote.

He's not making excuses. Business is Business. Economics has everything to do with it. What video game characters get made is not a matter of "privilege". It's a matter of cost benefits analysis. Nothing else. We can argue back and forth about how things "should be" all day, but it changes nothing to address the issue on those terms. Very little in the world operates under the rules of how things should be in regards to fairness, and even less so in business. Corporations don't care about your views on social justice. Money, that is all.

If you're willing to put your cash on the line, then join with others and make it happen. Kickstarter is great for this. But expecting larger companies to put up there money is silly. Any publicly traded corporation has a legal obligation to create profit for its shareholders. If a game like what you want was made, and it tanked, the shareholders would be in a position to make heads roll because of the loss and could blame its risk taking as to the source of their loss in profits.

I've been called out for being a bigot just for daring to bring up the PC term. If people think i'm a bigot, then you have no idea how much more bigoted other people are. It would indicate that the odds of lost revenue would be quite high. Don't expect others to take risks for you.

Businesses can make money and be fair (among other things) at the same time. Plenty of corporations do it. The idea of maximizing profits at all costs is pretty bull. Most corporations maximize a number of different metrics besides just profit. It's a very myopic excuse.

 

[Silvanus]

But you could always just learn programming, create a small indie game and move from there taking small steps. Or, perhaps, collaborate with the many coders, artists, writers, designers etc that you can find all over the internet to achieve the goal. You don't need a games company.

I don't want to learn programming, solely to create a game to fulfil a shortfall I see. I have other plans for myself. There are people better suited to that task than me; and besides, I can hold views on these products that I buy and play without necessarily being involved in their production.


I think the film industry is lacking in imaginative modern horror, too. Must I go and film my own?

 

[ninjaRiv]

But you could always just learn programming, create a small indie game and move from there taking small steps. Or, perhaps, collaborate with the many coders, artists, writers, designers etc that you can find all over the internet to achieve the goal. You don't need a games company.

I don't want to learn programming, solely to create a game to fulfil a shortfall I see. I have other plans for myself. There are people better suited to that task than me; and besides, I can hold views on these products that I buy and play without necessarily being involved in their production.

Then why the sarcastic response?

 

[Silvanus]

Then why the sarcastic response?

I was sarcastic, because I found your original response dismissive.

People can have valid criticisms of art without necessarily going out there and creating alternatives themselves. I imagine this forum is composed almost entirely of people who aren't actively involved in the creation of video games, and yet they discuss them all the time.

 

[jehk]

Then why the sarcastic response?

Because saying "go make your own" is a ridiculous response.

People often give criticism and feedback to developers of the products they consume. This feedback affects future products those developers make.

 

[ninjaRiv]

Then why the sarcastic response?

I was sarcastic, because I found your original response dismissive.

People can have valid criticisms of art without necessarily going out there and creating alternatives themselves. I imagine this forum is composed almost entirely of people who aren't actively involved in the creation of video games, and yet they discuss them all the time.

Then why the sarcastic response?

Because saying "go make your own" is a ridiculous response.

People often give criticism and feedback to developers of the products they consume. This feedback affects future products those developers make.

If you have valid criticisms then I wasn't talking to you. I have criticisms. I have things I want to see from the industry. I don';t make games (would like to, though). But I think it's a very good response to the constant demands out there. "Waaaa, gimme this character! Waaaaa!" If it means so much to you that you NEED a character to be a woman or gay, making the games yourself must certainly be worth it. But let's not forget how many people out there WANT to work in the industry but don't do anything. or those who have no designs for their life and sit around playing video games working jobs they hate. Those are the people I'm talking to.

 

[The_Echo]

Kanji isn't gay. He's confused. He doesn't trust women because of his enjoyment of sewing and other stereotypically 'feminine' things, and he thinks men will understand. After his dungeon, the only person who calls him gay or even insinuates it is Yosuke because he doesn't entirely trust Kanji.

Whatever he is, I think he still fits into a discussion of non-heterosexuality in games.

Did Dead Space, or Skyward Sword, or Gears of War "bring in sexuality"? No, they brought in romance. It's never considered "bringing in sexuality" when it's straight; hell, it's never even questioned at all.

I'm not... entirely sure why it would be.

 

[jehk]

If you have valid criticisms then I wasn't talking to you. I have criticisms. I have things I want to see from the industry. I don';t make games (would like to, though). But I think it's a very good response to the constant demands out there. "Waaaa, gimme this character! Waaaaa!" If it means so much to you that you NEED a character to be a woman or gay, making the games yourself must certainly be worth it. But let's not forget how many people out there WANT to work in the industry but don't do anything. or those who have no designs for their life and sit around playing video games working jobs they hate. Those are the people I'm talking to.

Who said anything about need?

Also, I work a job I don't particularly like. Sometimes I do hate it. So my criticism is invalid now? What are you even getting at?

 

[ninjaRiv]

Then why the sarcastic response?

I was sarcastic, because I found your original response dismissive.

People can have valid criticisms of art without necessarily going out there and creating alternatives themselves. I imagine this forum is composed almost entirely of people who aren't actively involved in the creation of video games, and yet they discuss them all the time.

Then why the sarcastic response?

Because saying "go make your own" is a ridiculous response.

People often give criticism and feedback to developers of the products they consume. This feedback affects future products those developers make.

If you have valid criticisms then I wasn't talking to you. I have criticisms. I have things I want to see from the industry. I don';t make games (would like to, though). But I think it's a very good response to the constant demands out there. "Waaaa, gimme this character! Waaaaa!" If it means so much to you that you NEED a character to be a woman or gay, making the games yourself must certainly be worth it. But let's not forget how many people out there WANT to work in the industry but don't do anything. or those who have no designs for their life and sit around playing video games working jobs they hate. Those are the people I'm talking to.

Who said anything about need?

Also, I work a job I don't particularly like. Sometimes I do hate it. So my criticism is invalid now? What are you even getting at?

If you're not shouting about how you NEED the character, then I wasn't talking to you. That's my point. I respect any criticism and desires for games you might have. Probably share a lot of them. I think it's ridiculous that people think changing things yourself is such a ridiculous idea, though.

 

[jehk]

If you're not shouting about how you NEED the character, then I wasn't talking to you. That's my point. I respect any criticism and desires for games you might have. Probably share a lot of them. I think it's ridiculous that people think changing things yourself is such a ridiculous idea, though.

Do you understand what its takes to get into a position of power to make those changes?

Instead people give feedback to developers about changes they would like to see in their products.

 

[ninjaRiv]

If you're not shouting about how you NEED the character, then I wasn't talking to you. That's my point. I respect any criticism and desires for games you might have. Probably share a lot of them. I think it's ridiculous that people think changing things yourself is such a ridiculous idea, though.

Do you understand what its takes to get into a position of power to make those changes?

Instead people give feedback to developers about changes they would like to see in their products.

Why do you assume you could go from beginner to place of power so quickly? Why should change be quick? I'm not saying one person should run out and make a AAA game. I'm saying a small team (possibly one person) could make a good indie game and go from there. Kind of like how the big developers did it.

giving feedback is fine. I do it professionally, as do many people, but there's a difference between giving constructive feedback and bullying. My comment was aimed at bullies and shitty people who think change is immediate and requires no work at all.