Heteronormaltivity in games

[Aramis Night]

Okay i'm a son of a ***** for being straight. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that the world cators to my needs in video games, tv, and movies.
Only I'm not. See when your really sorry your apologizing for something you intend to stop doing.

And honestly there is nothing I can do to give away these privileges. Nor would I even if i had 100s of people trying to shame me out of them. Why can't everyone say this who thinks it?

No one is asking you to give away privileges. Privilege and equality aren't zero sum. Women (and other minority groups) can have the same privileges across gaming as men do.

The best thing you could do is not act like a jerk. Instead of coming up with excuses like "Business is business" you could say "yes, you should enjoy the same privileges I do."

EDIT: Whoops. Screwed up the quote.

He's not making excuses. Business is Business. Economics has everything to do with it. What video game characters get made is not a matter of "privilege". It's a matter of cost benefits analysis. Nothing else. We can argue back and forth about how things "should be" all day, but it changes nothing to address the issue on those terms. Very little in the world operates under the rules of how things should be in regards to fairness, and even less so in business. Corporations don't care about your views on social justice. Money, that is all.

If you're willing to put your cash on the line, then join with others and make it happen. Kickstarter is great for this. But expecting larger companies to put up there money is silly. Any publicly traded corporation has a legal obligation to create profit for its shareholders. If a game like what you want was made, and it tanked, the shareholders would be in a position to make heads roll because of the loss and could blame its risk taking as to the source of their loss in profits.

I've been called out for being a bigot just for daring to bring up the PC term. If people think i'm a bigot, then you have no idea how much more bigoted other people are. It would indicate that the odds of lost revenue would be quite high. Don't expect others to take risks for you.

Businesses can make money and be fair (among other things) at the same time. Plenty of corporations do it. The idea of maximizing profits at all costs is pretty bull. Most corporations maximize a number of different metrics besides just profit. It's a very myopic excuse.

Serious question. Which AAA gaming company operates without profit? Now which AAA gaming companies operate without being fair? The point is that being fair is optional, as are many of these other metrics you refer to. Producing a profit, is not an option, it is an imperative. Therefore every other consideration takes a backseat to profit. Especially the moment shareholders get involved, expecting their quarterly dividends.

 

[jehk]

If you're not shouting about how you NEED the character, then I wasn't talking to you. That's my point. I respect any criticism and desires for games you might have. Probably share a lot of them. I think it's ridiculous that people think changing things yourself is such a ridiculous idea, though.

Do you understand what its takes to get into a position of power to make those changes?

Instead people give feedback to developers about changes they would like to see in their products.

Why do you assume you could go from beginner to place of power so quickly? Why should change be quick? I'm not saying one person should run out and make a AAA game. I'm saying a small team (possibly one person) could make a good indie game and go from there. Kind of like how the big developers did it.

giving feedback is fine. I do it professionally, as do many people, but there's a difference between giving constructive feedback and bullying. My comment was aimed at bullies and shitty people who think change is immediate and requires no work at all.

I'm still not sure what you're getting at. So only bullies should "make their own"? That second paragraphs seems like a pretty big non sequitur.

I don't want to make a game. I want to play one. One where I can be the kind of women I'm can't be in real life. Am I being a bully for wanting something like that in GTA V?

 

[ninjaRiv]

If you're not shouting about how you NEED the character, then I wasn't talking to you. That's my point. I respect any criticism and desires for games you might have. Probably share a lot of them. I think it's ridiculous that people think changing things yourself is such a ridiculous idea, though.

Do you understand what its takes to get into a position of power to make those changes?

Instead people give feedback to developers about changes they would like to see in their products.

Why do you assume you could go from beginner to place of power so quickly? Why should change be quick? I'm not saying one person should run out and make a AAA game. I'm saying a small team (possibly one person) could make a good indie game and go from there. Kind of like how the big developers did it.

giving feedback is fine. I do it professionally, as do many people, but there's a difference between giving constructive feedback and bullying. My comment was aimed at bullies and shitty people who think change is immediate and requires no work at all.

I'm still not sure what you're getting at. So only bullies should "make their own"? That second paragraphs seems like a pretty big non sequitur.

I don't want to make a game. I want to play one. One where I can be the kind of women I'm can't be in real life. Am I being a bully for wanting something like that in GTA V?

... No. You know what I'm talking about. You know I'm trying to say "be the change you want to see." I've stated already that the comment was not even aimed at you, it's aimed at those who genuinely want to fight for the change but, sometimes, use bullying tactics.

 

[jehk]

Serious question. Which AAA gaming company operates without profit? Now which AAA gaming companies operate without being fair? The point is that being fair is optional, as are many of these other metrics you refer to. Producing a profit, is not an option, it is an imperative. Therefore every other consideration takes a backseat to profit. Especially the moment shareholders get involved, expecting their quarterly dividends.

And you're missing the point. Businesses can earn profit and be fair. Excusing the "be fair" part with a business is business (what does that even mean) assertion is bull. Also, have you never heard of nonprofit organizations?

 

[jehk]

If you're not shouting about how you NEED the character, then I wasn't talking to you. That's my point. I respect any criticism and desires for games you might have. Probably share a lot of them. I think it's ridiculous that people think changing things yourself is such a ridiculous idea, though.

Do you understand what its takes to get into a position of power to make those changes?

Instead people give feedback to developers about changes they would like to see in their products.

Why do you assume you could go from beginner to place of power so quickly? Why should change be quick? I'm not saying one person should run out and make a AAA game. I'm saying a small team (possibly one person) could make a good indie game and go from there. Kind of like how the big developers did it.

giving feedback is fine. I do it professionally, as do many people, but there's a difference between giving constructive feedback and bullying. My comment was aimed at bullies and shitty people who think change is immediate and requires no work at all.

I'm still not sure what you're getting at. So only bullies should "make their own"? That second paragraphs seems like a pretty big non sequitur.

I don't want to make a game. I want to play one. One where I can be the kind of women I'm can't be in real life. Am I being a bully for wanting something like that in GTA V?

... No. You know what I'm talking about. You know I'm trying to say "be the change you want to see." I've stated already that the comment was not even aimed at you, it's aimed at those who genuinely want to fight for the change but, sometimes, use bullying tactics.

I really don't know what you're talking about. Sorry.

"Being the change you want to see" is just not realistic for most people. Bullying doesn't even enter into it.

 

[ninjaRiv]

If you're not shouting about how you NEED the character, then I wasn't talking to you. That's my point. I respect any criticism and desires for games you might have. Probably share a lot of them. I think it's ridiculous that people think changing things yourself is such a ridiculous idea, though.

Do you understand what its takes to get into a position of power to make those changes?

Instead people give feedback to developers about changes they would like to see in their products.

Why do you assume you could go from beginner to place of power so quickly? Why should change be quick? I'm not saying one person should run out and make a AAA game. I'm saying a small team (possibly one person) could make a good indie game and go from there. Kind of like how the big developers did it.

giving feedback is fine. I do it professionally, as do many people, but there's a difference between giving constructive feedback and bullying. My comment was aimed at bullies and shitty people who think change is immediate and requires no work at all.

I'm still not sure what you're getting at. So only bullies should "make their own"? That second paragraphs seems like a pretty big non sequitur.

I don't want to make a game. I want to play one. One where I can be the kind of women I'm can't be in real life. Am I being a bully for wanting something like that in GTA V?

... No. You know what I'm talking about. You know I'm trying to say "be the change you want to see." I've stated already that the comment was not even aimed at you, it's aimed at those who genuinely want to fight for the change but, sometimes, use bullying tactics.

I really don't know what you're talking about. Sorry.

"Being the change you want to see" is just not realistic for most people. Bullying doesn't even enter into it.

Then... What's your problem here? Comment was not directed at you.

And, my point is, it's a lot more realistic than people think. They just refuse to put in the effort.

 

[jehk]

If you're not shouting about how you NEED the character, then I wasn't talking to you. That's my point. I respect any criticism and desires for games you might have. Probably share a lot of them. I think it's ridiculous that people think changing things yourself is such a ridiculous idea, though.

Do you understand what its takes to get into a position of power to make those changes?

Instead people give feedback to developers about changes they would like to see in their products.

Why do you assume you could go from beginner to place of power so quickly? Why should change be quick? I'm not saying one person should run out and make a AAA game. I'm saying a small team (possibly one person) could make a good indie game and go from there. Kind of like how the big developers did it.

giving feedback is fine. I do it professionally, as do many people, but there's a difference between giving constructive feedback and bullying. My comment was aimed at bullies and shitty people who think change is immediate and requires no work at all.

I'm still not sure what you're getting at. So only bullies should "make their own"? That second paragraphs seems like a pretty big non sequitur.

I don't want to make a game. I want to play one. One where I can be the kind of women I'm can't be in real life. Am I being a bully for wanting something like that in GTA V?

... No. You know what I'm talking about. You know I'm trying to say "be the change you want to see." I've stated already that the comment was not even aimed at you, it's aimed at those who genuinely want to fight for the change but, sometimes, use bullying tactics.

I really don't know what you're talking about. Sorry.

"Being the change you want to see" is just not realistic for most people. Bullying doesn't even enter into it.

Then... What's your problem here? Comment was not directed at you.

And, my point is, it's a lot more realistic than people think. They just refuse to put in the effort.

Refuse to? I need to support myself and my family. It's not an option even if I wanted to. I'd still like to play as a women in GTA.

It's not realistic for most people.

 

[ninjaRiv]

Refuse to? I need to support myself and my family. It's not an option even if I wanted to. I'd still like to play as a women in GTA.

It's not realistic for most people.

So you don't get half an hour to yourself every day? At all? You're constantly working 24/7?

It's realistic for anybody who has half an hour a day and a computer with the internet.

 

[jehk]

Refuse to? I need to support myself and my family. It's not an option even if I wanted to. I'd still like to play as a women in GTA.

It's not realistic for most people.

So you don't get half an hour to yourself every day? At all? You're constantly working 24/7?

It's realistic for anybody who has half an hour a day and a computer with the internet.

You're clearly not a parent.

EDIT: You really think someone can run a successful indie company with a half hour of free time a day?

You're pretty far out there in defending your position. I can't follow you anymore.

 

[ninjaRiv]

Refuse to? I need to support myself and my family. It's not an option even if I wanted to. I'd still like to play as a women in GTA.

It's not realistic for most people.

So you don't get half an hour to yourself every day? At all? You're constantly working 24/7?

It's realistic for anybody who has half an hour a day and a computer with the internet.

You're clearly not a parent.

Thank fuck for that...

No, I've seen enough of parenting to know two things.
1. I don't fancy it
2. It's a lot of work

But not everyone is a parent and not everyone's time is completely taken up by it. There are plenty of people who do get that small amount of time every day. or even every other day.

EDIT: Edit to your edit:

I think someone can make a successful game, yes. Company? Yes but it'd take longer. Things move slowly, buddy.

 

[Miss G.]

I'd like a Bi, Gay, or Lesbian character in a game that isn't a love interest.
That'd be nice.

Then play The Last of Us and enjoy all that is Bill for the amount of time he's with you on your journey. You might like it.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

whyy would writing an interesting gay character be any different then writing an interesting straight character? Or are you saying you just want less story and character development in general?

Same reason why writing female characters is harder then writing males. They can't be cookie-cutter stereotypes like most of the male characters without somebody crying foul on how sexist/homophobic it is.

 

[Silvanus]

I'm not... entirely sure why it would be.

That's entirely my point.

Why must the idea of gay romance justify its existence in games? A lot of people in this thread have been asking, "why must there be gay characters?", or sentiments to that effect, as if gay characters/romances/sub-plots must have a damn good reason for being there.

My aim was to illustrate that straight romances are taken for granted, and gay ones are held to a very different standard.

 

[white_wolf]

There are already several gay heros in Persona 4 or something like that you get to play as a conflicted gay hero, Fable, Mass Effect retconned male Shepard for 3 when previously they did put out a press release for the male versions stating he wouldn't and isn't going to be made gay ever...so yeah. Then there was always Female Shepard.

If its optional and done in away where not everyone in your group or the world is HEROsexual then its not a huge deal however for those who do not want to role play that life style it can be immersion breaking or downright lose players.

There are lots more gay npcs like the maid in clock tower, obviously mass effect even Kaiden got retconned into this category, fallout 4, the witcher, yakuza, way of the samurai, dragon age, dragon's dogma, and others. Its just most gamers are hetro and hetro writers write them how many idie games have s/s heros? I haven't seen any.

In some games it can make sense like the rpgs or open worlds but with a predefined character the writer puts out what they want and if you place in the advertising you have a gay male lead doing X even if thats a solider whose white, brown haired, and has a tough attitude you still aren't going to get the sales or more accurately the game maker isn't going to get the sales they want to see.

Until the game market opens up if it opens for women in their unique povs and gets innovative again like it was in the 70 - 90's then you'll get more characters with more view points and life styles until then you're only getting weeds and npcs.

 

[Sing]

If you don't see gay characters your yaoi goggles aren't on tight enough.

This comment made my evening.

OT: More gay characters in games! Many gay people are stuggling not only for their rights, but also against prejudice and the hetero norm. I belive games is a great medium for breaking the norm and sharing to the world what it means to be homosexual today. This could (and should) be done in a playful and interesting way without the cheesy drama.

[small]That's my two cents anyway...[/small]

 

[Cybylt]

I don't want to play as a gay man in a game. I don't like playing as a female either. Thats probably why things like that are optional and can be skipped.

What if I don't want to play as a straight man? Can I skip that in Dead Space? Or Gears of War? Or Grand Theft Auto?

Woah, woah, woah, Marcus and Dom aren't a couple? There is tons more chemistry between them than the rest of the series' cast combined on top of all of the co-op achievements being some kind of innuendo about the two.

They were just in the closet because they live in a society that requires procreation to survive.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Something I'm noticing here is that a lot of people seem to be under the assumption that in all these games that the characterization of the characters is a completely disinterested aspect to the game.

When someone DOES make a story, they typically are making it based on their own perspective, wants, beliefs and ideals. When characterization is being used it will either be someone trying to pander to people by making what they assume they want, or they are writing what they want to write and putting effort into what they want to write. A person needs no more reason to make a heterosexual character than they wanted to make a heterosexual character. What you want is that you want the game makers to want to make homosexual characters and are complaining about the fact that they don't want to.

If the character is so unimportant that their sexuality could be switched with either a heterosexual one or a homosexual one then there's not much reason for a heterosexual person to make them homosexual as it doesn't really do anything to advance the bland character. If the character IS important then the a heterosexual person is more likely to make them heterosexual, particularly when that sexuality is the dominant one by a huge majority. It doesn't mean they can't, but there isn't any obligation (Nor should there be) for them to make a homosexual character.

I'm an aspie but you don't see me getting up in arms about there not being enough characters with aspergers in games (The only ones I can think of that do have aspies are Borderlands and To The Moon), because I realize that aspies make up a small portion of the population and realistically there is no reason there SHOULD be more aspies in games.

 

[Demongeneral109]

Dear games industry, y u no gay characters in games?

I mean, I remember in Bully it was kinda cool that you could kiss the boys as well as the girls. Even though it sucked that you still had to give them gifts, even though you didn't with the girls if you leveled up. And it doesn't seem to have evolved past that in the last 7 years. With the portrayals of romance and relationships I can relate to being relegated to at best some kind of token afterthought to a system already in place. It just seems to be a cop out more than anything else.

I think that the gaming community mostly wouldn't mind a gay hero. No one really batted an eye at Bully, or Skyrim, or Mass Effect or anything like that. So why not give it a try games industry, y u no do that?

I believe that if the story/world/setting allows for it, then by all means go for it. However, I find it stupid to make a character gay just to make them gay and to have a gay character in the game. Same with female. It adds nothing and won't do the gender/sexual orientation the stuff it deserves.

Then is also stupid to make a white straight male character? shall we just play blobs from now on?
You can have a character who is gay, female, black, Indian, whatever without there being some specific reason to have them. The fact that everything is white straight male by default and portraying "minorities" without making that the central feature of their character is considering ticking off a check list and having no point is one of the reason they are poorly represented.

you're missing the point, sex and race can be anything if not relevant to the plot, so while I agree that we could use more female, Asian, black, and other minority characters, its silly to complain about sexuality. With gender/race, they are physical characteristics i.e, no matter what is going on these are things that you see and have no choice but to show the audience unless they are in space marine armor. For sexuality, unless there is some reason to make it become a focus, there is no circumstance in which it can be brought up without being tacky or 'by the way' only to be quickly discarded. A game were we find out the character is gay, must necessarily have a degree of discussion on sexuality, something that we have no reason to discuss in Bioshock, COD, Halo, Starcraft,ect. Vns and character driven dramas(not like the Last of Us, where sexuality, again, has no real place) are where discussion like this takes place, and outside of notable examples, there has just not been much discussion yet. Hell, even race has difficulty being discussed in games, and that has been relevant for far longer then atypical sexuality, just give the medium to figure out how to make relevant mechanics and techniques to discuss this problem, and we will see it happen eventually

 

[shootthebandit]

I'd like a Bi, Gay, or Lesbian character in a game that isn't a love interest.
That'd be nice.

Then play The Last of Us and enjoy all that is Bill for the amount of time he's with you on your journey. You might like it.

does bills homosexuality stem from the fact that perhaps there wasn't many female survivors around and the only person he has been in contact with for years is another man? you know like in prison men who on the outside were straight will have sex with other men purely due to the fact they are there for life.