Heteronormaltivity in games

[thebakedpotato]

Good for you! That still doesn't change the fact that homosexuals are still a minority market. Every homosexual that exists could be a regular game buyer, and they'd still be a minority market. Just because you, a single person, bought a fair amount of games this year doesn't change that fact.

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Also, isn't Lillet Blan from GrimGrimoire heavily implied to be a lesbian? I rarely see people mention her. I liked GrimGrimoire. Had a great cast of characters.

So you are saying that my money is inferior and that no developer at all should try to cater to my market because of that?

 

[m19]

Dear games industry, y u no gay characters in games?

Because less than 5% of people are gay.

 

[thebakedpotato]

Dear games industry, y u no gay characters in games?

Because less than 5% of people are gay.

And 5% of the gaming market is 500 million dollars at least.

Total chump change. No one should bother.

 

[Carpenter]

You ask why "no gay characters in games" right before naming a game where you can play a gay protagonist.

There are plenty of gay protagonists in games. Hetrosexual characters are still more common or "the norm" because that is what our reality is. People can push for all the equal treatment they want, I support that, but don't try to tell me that homosexuality is just as valid as heterosexuality. Homosexuality is a mutation of the norm.

If that offends you, too bad. Sometimes reality is offensive. Fact is that a majority of people are sexually attracted to the opposite sex, it's how our species developed, it's kind of a big factor for our reproductive cycle.

It's great that homosexual protagonists are becoming more common in games, now don't mess it up by trying to demand that all games have homosexual protagonists. Your only going to make your cause look like another social supremacy campaign.

 

[Carpenter]

Keep in mind that games are generally intended for as wide an audience as possible (hopefully without sacrificing the intention of the game, *coughdeadspace3cough*). With that concept, do you think it's a wise business decision to create a game with a homosexual character when the majority of gamers are heterosexual (likely over 95%1 unless homosexuals are more likely to be gamers than heterosexuals are)? Don't get me wrong, I understand your feelings here and completely get it. I support you being able to make whatever decisions you want to in a game and really want the future of gaming to be about cutomiseability in this way. But if it's a slight negative for you to have to play as a heterosexual, why is it fair to turn that around to negatively impact the 95% of gamers in games that are non-customiseable? Not only would it potentially significantly limit the target market (e.g. punish the company brave enough to do this) but it would also impact the heterosexual gamers in the same way you feel impacted when playing heterosexual-normative games.

I think you're slightly misunderstanding my problem, here. It's not a slight negative for me when I play a game with a heterosexual protagonist.

It only becomes a negative when that's all there is to play.

It isn't the same as hiring an employee. 100% of the time that games are offered to a AAA audience the demographics will still have hugh proportion being heterosexual with the very small minority being gay or lesbian. There isn't a line of gay characters being told that they'll get a call back with the decision they never have. It is just a character designed to function as an avatar for the gamers.

In games with high customisation, or even those with silent protagonists, the protagonist is indeed an avatar for the gamer-- but not so in many others. I dread to think which players are seeing themselves in F.3.A.R.'s Point Man!

So I guess I have to ask, is it enough that there are games in which you can be anyone and anything including homosexual? Or is it more important that you have a game in which the player must be homosexual? If the former, then there are ever more of those options available, it holds a bright future. If the latter, you've got to ask yourself why that in particular is so important. I've had this discussion with LGBT friends and the answer often surprises them as well.

I don't think it is "so important", exactly.

I'm just sick of gay people being considered unimportant. Straight people take for granted how much things are weighted towards them. In video games, they don't exist as protagonists outside self-customisation. In films, they don't exist as protagonists outside of tragedies. I know books with gay protagonists exist, but since I've never sought one out specifically, I've never found one-- I'm a prolific reader, and I've only ever encountered straight protagonists there, as well. As background characters, they're fine, but don't let them take the protagonist's role, lest they make straight people flip their shit as they momentarily forget they have the other 99% of media to turn to.

This wasn't aimed at you, Lightknight, you mentioned that you do sympathise earlier. It was just a general rant.

Good for you! That still doesn't change the fact that homosexuals are still a minority market. Every homosexual that exists could be a regular game buyer, and they'd still be a minority market. Just because you, a single person, bought a fair amount of games this year doesn't change that fact.

I'd have thought that most straight gamers wouldn't be small-minded enough to avoid those games on that basis alone.

Oddly enough, quite a few boys played Tomb Raider, Metroid, Portal & Mirror's Edge.

You say it yourself, you are sick of people saying gay people are unimportant.

Get use to it.

I'm straight, I am unimportant to literally most people on the planet, you don't see me whining about it.

The fact that you are gay and treated like you don't matter doesn't mean they are treating you like you don't matter because you are gay.

My desires and the things I care about are not catered too by the mainstream, neither are yours. The only difference between us in that case is that you have a little label you use for yourself so you can pretend that you are being especially mistreated.

They don't care about any of us as individuals, that's the point. They are corporations, they are there to make money.

 

[Frozengale]

I think the funniest thing about threads like these is that the people writing them automatically assume that 99.9% of characters in games are straight. When really most characters don't show a leaning one way or the other. I honestly thought that gays were just normal people, and that it didn't matter who they were or how they acted, that the only real difference was who they wanted to bone. But apparently gay people are different from everyone else.

 

[m19]

And 5% of the gaming market is 500 million dollars at least.

Total chump change. No one should bother.

Where did I say no one should?

 

[Silvanus]

You say it yourself, you are sick of people saying gay people are unimportant.

Get use to it.

I'm straight, I am unimportant to literally most people on the planet, you don't see me whining about it.

The fact that you are gay and treated like you don't matter doesn't mean they are treating you like you don't matter because you are gay.

My desires and the things I care about are not catered too by the mainstream, neither are yours. The only difference between us in that case is that you have a little label you use for yourself so you can pretend that you are being especially mistreated.

They don't care about any of us as individuals, that's the point. They are corporations, they are there to make money.

The hostility isn't necessary.

Being regarded as unimportant as an individual, and as a demographic, are different things.

And saying, "corporations are there to make money"-- well, yes, of course they are. That's why I'm not asking them to stop making money.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6814-Companies-Exist-To-Make-Money

I honestly thought that gays were just normal people, and that it didn't matter who they were or how they acted, that the only real difference was who they wanted to bone. But apparently gay people are different from everyone else.

If every single written protagonist was white, and somebody asked, "perhaps it'd be fine if one were black?"

Would you say, "I thought black people were just normal, but I guess they're different from everyone else"?

Genuine question, here. I've edited out the snark, because I felt bad about all the snarkiness.

 

[wintercoat]

Good for you! That still doesn't change the fact that homosexuals are still a minority market. Every homosexual that exists could be a regular game buyer, and they'd still be a minority market. Just because you, a single person, bought a fair amount of games this year doesn't change that fact.

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Also, isn't Lillet Blan from GrimGrimoire heavily implied to be a lesbian? I rarely see people mention her. I liked GrimGrimoire. Had a great cast of characters.

So you are saying that my money is inferior and that no developer at all should try to cater to my market because of that?

Projecting much? Unless you believe being a minority is being called inferior, I said nothing of the sort. And you seem to have a gross misunderstanding of what a market demographic is, and how they figure into who gets marketed to.

 

[Nokturos]

Entertainment media caters to the largest demographic. The largest demographic for video games is straight white males. It's extremely difficult for a developer to have a female protagonist, or even supporting character, as evidenced by The Last of Us, so imagine how hard it would be to have a gay protagonist/supporting character. It'd be hell just getting it past marketing, and even if you did, your sales would probably be terrible because the vast majority of your audience actively disassociate themselves from anything even remotely gay.

 

[thebakedpotato]

I think the funniest thing about threads like these is that the people writing them automatically assume that 99.9% of characters in games are straight. When really most characters don't show a leaning one way or the other. I honestly thought that gays were just normal people, and that it didn't matter who they were or how they acted, that the only real difference was who they wanted to bone. But apparently gay people are different from everyone else.

It is a bit different than that. It is a significant part of your identity. As it is for straight people. Look at how many portrayals of relationships there are in the media. One of the discussions I have seen in this thread is that there are few ways to implement this without resorting to stereotypes (Though I think that ParaNorman did a good job of avoiding this). And that's kind of true with the real world day to day of folks.

Unless I trumpet it out loud to the world, or make it obvious in context, people will assume that I am straight. And, more often than not. This leads to them airing some rather uncomfortable biases out there. ("Oh I like your sandwich shop better because the other one hires -those- kinds of people.")
And when it gets ignored with pop culture that is driven so much by relationships (Pretty much any comedy show, and a lot of dramas have romantic plots that are almost always, straight.) it gets easy to feel invisible.

Is it a big deal in the grand scheme of things? Maybe not. But at times it kind of makes me feel a little sad. And I'm willing to pay a little bit of money to feel sad about other things instead.

 

[Shraggler]

I think it's pretty hard honestly. You either have to make it obvious, like in a flamboyant way, in which case it can get offensive due to how stereotypical the portrayal, but if you minimilize it too much, like a characters goes "by the way, I like men", it might come of like something you did just so you can fill out a checklist of minorities to represent.

Because 95% of the time, sexuality has no bearing on the plot of the game at all.

Pretty sure these two posts sum it up effectively.

Sexuality, gender identity, all that shit is being taken to a ridiculous degree within the gaming industry at this point. Why the fuck does any of it matter in a video game? No matter how hard a dev tries to make it so, a game is never going to supplant real life. Why is there even a discussion of "gender issues" in games? Why is that a trend? It seemingly came up out of nowhere and now everyone from forgettable YouTubers & bloggers to actual game publications are latching onto it to varying degrees, as if it is of the same sociological concern as the Space Race was in the 50's and 60's. What the hell is going on?

You know what happens when I meet someone who's gay/transgender/lesbian/whatever? "Cool. Now! Where shall we go get food/water/something to do?" Exactly the same way I react to a straight person. It's not a factor. It's none of my business. It's their personal, private life. It's part of their identity. Why should it impact me in any way at all? How could it?

It's like every time someone meets another person with a differing gender or sexual orientation from what's expected, they first act surprised, and then they're either repulsed because all they can think about is buttsecks (which is incredibly patronizing, in my point of view) or react as if it were some significant anomaly in reality. It's getting more and more annoying.

Sure, I may ask said person some questions about their personal life later on. I might want to get to know them and develop more than a superficial relationship with that person most of the time. I hate passive relationships. I don't like wasting my time. I like learning and gaining new perspectives, especially if there's no way I could physically obtain that perspective. I like understanding new concepts and ideas, because if being alive has taught me anything, is that there is a whole fuckload I do not understand.


Sorry. Taking another breath. I think I went way off topic. It hasn't been the greatest of Mondays.

 

[bug_of_war]

Seriously? Your argument is simply that romance isn't there?

Alright, let's look at my game shelf. FF7, 8 & X, Nightfall, Dead Space (mostly #1), Heavy Rain, Shadow of the Colossus, the Uncharted series, Red Dead, Braid.

That's only looking at games I have direct experience with, and excluding games based on other media.

The Final Fantasy games and Heavy Rain have the most cringe worthy romance plots, not to mention you can skip the romance in Heavy Rain so...

Dead Space, I'll give you that, they did a pretty good job at inserting the romance into the game to give you reason to push on. Red Dead wasn't so much romance as it was love for family, though I guess they're similar aspects.

As for the others, I haven't played them so I can't make a judgement call either way.

Teenage girls' magazines are tailored solely to teenage girls. Gamers are not exclusively straight people.

No they're not, but straight people make up the larger portion of the gamer demographic. It'd be EXTREMELY risky for a triple A company to make a game where in which the minority of it's consumers would be able to relate to. As for why indie devs don't do it...I dunno...

That's your compromise? "Sure, all written protagonist romances are tailored to me and not you, but just shut up and be happy with what you get"?

I think you might take it a little bit for granted that 98% of media is tailored to your liking, Bug.

That's the only compromise until the majority of gamers/and or game developers become gay. It's not fair, but most of life isn't fair, and to expect an industry where in which the big backers are scared to make a game that doesn't have online multiplayer capability should show you why written gay characters aren't the norm. Yes, you should be happy that games where in which you choose your story and whom your character is allow for same sex relations as they could have easily left the feature out and still make profit.

98% of media is not tailored to me. Pop music, reggae, rap, love songs, nu metal, children's cartoons, musicals, romantic comedies, women magazines, children magazines, comic books, romance novels, romance films, puzzle games, table top RPGs, silent films, paintings, I could go on. Look, I get a great deal of media is created for straight males, but I am more than just a straight male, I think comics are a waste of time, yet I play video games, that in itself puts me in a different category of people whom visit this site who are also "straight males". You need a little more than gender and sexual orientation before you can put someone in a demographic.

 

[Frozengale]

I honestly thought that gays were just normal people, and that it didn't matter who they were or how they acted, that the only real difference was who they wanted to bone. But apparently gay people are different from everyone else.

If every single written protagonist was white, and somebody asked, "perhaps it'd be fine if one were black?"

Would you say, "I thought black people were just normal, but I guess they're different from everyone else"?

Genuine question, here. I've edited out the snark, because I felt bad about all the snarkiness.

The difference here being that you can look at a black person and a white person and say, "Hey those guys look different" So unless there is some outward manifestation that I was unaware of that gays have then I don't see the issue. The only way you can know someone is gay is if they tell you so. And honestly that is what a gay person is, no? Just a normal person that isn't different then anyone else. I'm saying that thinking that all characters in video games are straight is stupid because sexuality rarely plays a part in a game and therefore can't be seen. I'm not the one assuming that all video games characters are straight. I'm assuming that there are some gays in there as well, but there is no way to know, and there is no reason to know because sexuality is not a part of video game characters in most games.

I'm arguing that gay people are just people. Some people here seem to be arguing that gay people are something strange and that we need a blinking sign on the character that says, "HEY, THIS ONE IS GAY!"

 

[Silvanus]

The Final Fantasy games and Heavy Rain have the most cringe worthy romance plots, not to mention you can skip the romance in Heavy Rain so...

So what? They're still written romances. Whether you like them or not is irrelevant. My point was that romantic plots are actually pretty frequent in video games.

98% of media is not tailored to me. Pop music, reggae, rap, love songs, nu metal, children's cartoons, musicals, romantic comedies, women magazines, children magazines, comic books, romance novels, romance films, puzzle games, table top RPGs, silent films, paintings, I could go on. Look, I get a great deal of media is created for straight males, but I am more than just a straight male, I think comics are a waste of time, yet I play video games, that in itself puts me in a different category of people whom visit this site who are also "straight males". You need a little more than gender and sexual orientation before you can put someone in a demographic.

You are in multiple demographics-- that's how they work.

I'm saying that thinking that all characters in video games are straight is stupid because sexuality rarely plays a part in a game and therefore can't be seen. I'm not the one assuming that all video games characters are straight.

I'm tired of saying this. Sexuality rarely becomes a plot point. Romance frequently does.

I'm arguing that gay people are just people. Some people here seem to be arguing that gay people are something strange and that we need a blinking sign on the character that says, "HEY, THIS ONE IS GAY!"

When did I say anything even approaching that?! When did anybody say anything about gay people making it more obvious that they're gay? I'm not asking that characters needlessly declare themselves to be gay.

There are romances frequently in video games, just like in films and books.

 

[Lightknight]

Major props on your avatar. One of my favorite TV series of all time.

I think you're slightly misunderstanding my problem, here. It's not a slight negative for me when I play a game with a heterosexual protagonist.

It only becomes a negative when that's all there is to play.

Ah, so it isn't a negative per game, it's a negative in general. I think it's been clearly well defined that there are games where the player may choose to be gay. So we do know that this is not all there is to play as in the market as a whole. Please understand, I'm not trying to dismiss your trivialize your feelings, I'm just trying to get a better understanding of them.

In games with high customisation, or even those with silent protagonists, the protagonist is indeed an avatar for the gamer-- but not so in many others. I dread to think which players are seeing themselves in F.3.A.R.'s Point Man!

This actually isn't true. Even playing a game with a stable and strong character (with clearly expressed characteristics, not physically strong) like Nathan Drake, that character is still the player's avatar and the player still sees it as them playing as that avatar. Please bear in mind this isn't to say that playing as avatars that are drastically different from the individual are necessarily a bad thing. Just that they see the avatar as themselves because that's what they're controlling. No different than the concept that the mouse pointer on a screen is you. Even now, you are expressing overall discontent with none of your avatars reflecting your personhood to the extent you'd want. This very conversation wouldn't exist if that wasn't the case.

I don't think it is "so important", exactly.

I'm just sick of gay people being considered unimportant. Straight people take for granted how much things are weighted towards them. In video games, they don't exist as protagonists outside self-customisation. In films, they don't exist as protagonists outside of tragedies. I know books with gay protagonists exist, but since I've never sought one out specifically, I've never found one-- I'm a prolific reader, and I've only ever encountered straight protagonists there, as well. As background characters, they're fine, but don't let them take the protagonist's role, lest they make straight people flip their shit as they momentarily forget they have the other 99% of media to turn to.

This wasn't aimed at you, Lightknight, you mentioned that you do sympathise earlier. It was just a general rant.

I understand the need to rant and feel free to do that to me any time.

Your answer falls in-line with what my other gay friends have stated on this topic and more important ones like gay marriage. You feel a need to have your orientation publicly legitimized and accepted in a medium that you enjoy/participate. Similar to being allowed into the "in-crowd". Having some games with stable main characters whose orientation matches yours would help you feel better about yourself and the society you live in as a homosexual individual. This isn't a bad desire, it's natural to want to fit in and feel like you're OK. (You are, OK, by the way. And you do have every right to have a full place in society.)

But it isn't that homosexuals are unimportant. It's merely that your demographic represents a small segment of the target market. In a business, that still makes you a customer but it makes catering something specifically to you a lot more costly to the business and something that may be a negative to even more members of the 95% than the 5% it benefits. It isn't as simple as a hotdog stand keeping 5 veggie dogs just in case a vegetarian stops by. Customization that allows for homosexuals is companies specifically catering to your market segment. I understand why a stable character would mean more to you but please don't dismiss being allowed the option in customizeable games as trivial. Those are companies that have taken the time to add the option specifically for you. Whether it's Dragon Age or Saints Row 4 or whatever, these are companies that spent extra resources to add it just for you and people like you. They had the discussion, "Should we encorporate homosexuality" and they said, "Absolutely" or "Why not?". The increasing trend to include this option needs to be seen as the gaming market catering to you.

While I hope you never feel like you don't count, you absolutely do count, you're going to have to come to terms with being a member of a very small minority. That does have and will always have its downsides. Complaining that the norm (straight individuals in this case) is treated like the norm is merely stating how things are what what they typically should be in a fair society. I'm not exactly sure how to get my point across, but I just want you to know that you aren't being uncatered to because you or people like you are unimportant or don't count. It is simply a numbers thing and doesn't deal with your orientation specifically. Like if you were a member of a political party that made up 5% of the US but only voted for members of your own party. You'd all have the same vote that anyone in the other parties have, it's just that the combined force of your party can't get anything passed by themselves. While many individuals like myself wouldn't have any problem with a gay protagonist and support companies that would design games with homosexuals in mind, I still want to be able to play characters that are like me for the same reason you want characters that are like you.

As a side note, I'll bring up Fable 1 if that hasn't been mentioned in which a non-customiseable protagonist may marry another man. I apologize if you're female, I don't know your sex and I don't recall a non-customizeable female/female relationship game. Most games that allow that now though are customiseable and I think that's the fairest way to accomodate the 5% without incurring any cost to the 95%.

I really hope I didn't step on your toes here. I'm just trying to discuss it in a realistic and honest manner.

 

[Smeatza]

I don't get what this thread is suggesting.
Are we suggesting that 15% of romance plots in mainstream games should be homosexual?
Are we suggesting it should be more than 15%? If so how does that make sense when only 15% of the worlds population are gay?
Or are we suggesting that if there's a hetero romance option, there should be a homo romance option as well, so as to avoid exclusion?
I wont have noticed because I'm not gay, but is there a shortage of games where gay romance options are a possibility?

Why is it that games with create a character modes are discounted in these kinds of discussions?

 

[DataSnake]

Many games do not explicitly tell you the orientation of the characters, most just ASSUME they are straight. However, there is no reason why you cant assume they are gay.

This is pretty much what I was going to say. Who's to say Gordon Freeman, for example, isn't more interested to Barney than to Alyx?