Hey Dragon, You Can Have Her: Final Fantasy VIII

[SavingPrincess]

I liked the fact that you could be powerful a lot more easy then in the other games (100 quakes on atk) and the junction system was intresting, sence the GFs played a key role in the first 2 disks.

Interesting. I generally don't like being "overpowered" in games unless the gameplay itself is horrible or boring and I just want to cheat my way through for the story. That being said, I definitely want to hear your personal synopsis of the story... to get a more balanced perspective on someone who actually enjoyed it.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

... and if you want me to go in depth on WHY the story and mechanics of the game were "bad," I will happily do so; but be forewarned, if you love this game I will make you cry... so you might just want to love it in private.

-SP

Make me cry. I challenge you.

 

[Grampy_bone]

This "review" is pure historical revisionism. Final Fantasy games were never known for their storytelling prior to FF7 (and even that is debatable), and as I understand it Kitase had more to do with FF7 than Sakaguchi did; plus Spirits Within was terrible.

Every Sakaguchi plot can be summed up as "Oh noes!!! Environment is dying!" and he gave us such wonderful game mechanics as the Random End Boss From Nowhere, which FF8 used as well, so in that regard it's actually more like past FF games than 7 was.

Let's see about your other complaints:

- Disjointed overall story arc
FF4: Um okay, now there are crystals UNDERGROUND! And then ON THE MOON! DEATH HAS ONLY INCREASED ZEROMUS'S HATRED!

- Totally unremarkable inconsequential supporting cast
FF3: Onion kids? FF4: Spoony bard? FF5: Old dude, pirate chick? Half the cast of FF6? Everyone other than Cloud, Aeris, and Tifa in FF7? NONE OF THE CHARACTERS ARE IMPORTANT!

- Boring and distant villain(s)
FF1: Chaos FF2: Emperor FF3: Cloud of Darkness? FF4: Zeromus (Golbez was good though) FF5: Exdeath (lamest FF villain ever) FF6: Exception! Kefka was awesome (but as I understand it this had more to do with Woolsey's translation than the original script) FF7: Sephiroth (YMMV, but he only stays interesting for about 1/3 of the game)

- Guardian Force, Junction, and Draw systems were all horribly implemented, unbalanced and exploitable
I'm willing to give this one to you, except that I like exploitable game mechanics, because they make the player input more meaningful. In most FF games the player can simply level up and trounce all the bosses, but in FF8 you actually have to figure the system out in order to succeed. I can understand though if it's too hard for you to comprehend complex game mechanics!

- The Draw system broke what it means to be a video game and turned it into a mindless chore (not even a grind, an outright chore)
See above. No more a chore than grinding for AP, job points, etc. It's purely your opinion.


So all your criticisms apply easily to past games. If you didn't like 8 that's fair, but don't re-write history to suit your arguments.

 

[SavingPrincess]

Make me cry. I challenge you.

Onyx are you flamebaiting me?

Quite simply, Final Fantasy VIII is the worst attempt at a cohesive narrative in not only the Final Fantasy world, but in most of video gaming, and media in general. Nothing connects in any sort of sensible way, 80% of the characters are pointless, the "villain" is one of the weakest and least threatening in the series lineage, the battle system is a joke and unintentionally exploitable. In contrast, if you don't exploit it in just the right way, the endgame becomes completely impassable to the point of having to start the game over entirely; that's not difficulty, that's a bug (a "Class A" bug to use an industry term, in where a "Class A" bug is a bug that hard locks, crashes, or otherwise makes game progression impossible).

Keep in mind this is coming from a veritable "fanboy" of the series... I LOVE Final Fantasy and have spent more money on that single franchise than I have on any other (save for maybe Castlevania just for volume purposes), so it's not like I'm a "hater" or don't like jRPG's or something. I take games, and play them, and even if I love them, I can point out where they went wrong and parts of a game that I love that are bad. Mystic Quest was an AWFUL game, but I enjoyed the heck out of it... kind of like a bad "B Movie"... but Final Fantasy VIII was not a bad "B Movie," it was a horribly shallow "AAA Blockbuster". It's the Jersey Girl of Final Fantasy's, the Gigli, the Transformers 2.

Squall was a horrible protagonist and never even became likable. He was like the side character that quietly broods and no one pays attention to until he commits some kind of horrible betrayal at some point in the story, only he never became that interesting or deep, and he was the protagonist! It's as if they wrote the Laguna story, fleshed it out, made everything fit, and then wrote a game around it and shoved the more sensible Laguna narrative violently into the middle of this jelly-doughnut of a game; but like, the jelly and the dough were reversed... like a jelly-doughnut where the outside is made of jelly and the dough is on the inside. It's like, sure all the pieces are there, but now your hands are covered in jelly and you've made a mess everywhere. It would have been better to just have a cup of jelly or a doughnut...

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

The game has a few saving graces, it's got great scenario writing (the art of crafting the individual events you engage in, rather than the overall narrative), a fairly solid soundtrack and some of the best graphics on the PS1 (which isn't saying much) but overall yes, I would have to agree with you.

 

[SavingPrincess]

FF4: Um okay, now there are crystals UNDERGROUND! And then ON THE MOON! DEATH HAS ONLY INCREASED ZEROMUS'S HATRED!

Fair enough, but the characters and their relation to the story made sense, if in albeit a decidedly fantasy sort of way. See here [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/9.181071] for more information.

- Totally unremarkable inconsequential supporting cast
FF3: Onion kids?

Kenji Terada was told to "make Final Fantasy III more like the original and less like Final Fantasy II" and he did, which made the story and the characters inconsequential, but you're right.

FF4: Spoony bard?

If you're referring to either Tellah or Edward in this, as nonsensical as you feel the story was to that game, it would fall apart without either of those characters, as Tellah is your only true link to finding Golbez and Edward (Anna) is Tellah's only motivation for moving forward.

FF5: Old dude, pirate chick?

Again, admittedly not my favorite game, but the "old dude" (assuming you're referring to Galuf) is one of the only important characters IN that game, as he is the tie in with the actual story that's happening (much like Basch in Final Fantasy XII, and Faris the "Pirate Chick" is another progression mechanic to the story, as without her, the game wouldn't have been able to go very far.

Half the cast of FF6?

Hair stood up on the back of my neck on this one... not gonna lie. Final Fantasy VI's greatest strength is the fact that the story of all of its characters is the driving force behind everything that's going on. With the exception of the "bonus" characters (i.e. Umaro, Mog, Gogo), every character in Final Fantasy VI is absolutely central to the storyline overall. No Setzer? No airship (either time). No Gau? Party dies on the Veldt. No Cyanne? Game ends at Doma invasion. No Sabin? No Strago, party never learns the history of the War of the Magi, which means Kefka blows up the world unchallenged game over. While maybe not your favorite characters, every character is vital to the continual progression of the plot... unlike Final Fantasy VIII where every character could have been replaced by empty space or NPC's you only have to meet once.

Everyone other than Cloud, Aeris, and Tifa in FF7? NONE OF THE CHARACTERS ARE IMPORTANT!

Not gonna work too hard to defend this one as it's not my favorite... but here goes. No Barret, no Avalanche, no 7th Heaven, no Tifa, Cloud never gets hired... story goes nowhere. No RedXIII? Party never learn what a "Cetra" is, story dies. No Cait Sith? Someone else has to die to get the Black Materia and Shinra has no connection to the party. No Cid? No airship/rocket. I hate Yuffie. My biggest regret with Final Fantasy VII was that they didn't flesh out the Turks more and make them playable, they scrapped Rufus in the game, and... well... Yuffie I guess.0

- Boring and distant villain(s)
FF1: Chaos FF2: Emperor FF3: Cloud of Darkness? FF4: Zeromus (Golbez was good though) FF5: Exdeath (lamest FF villain ever) FF6: Exception! Kefka was awesome (but as I understand it this had more to do with Woolsey's translation than the original script) FF7: Sephiroth (YMMV, but he only stays interesting for about 1/3 of the game)

Chaos: PASS, they barely knew what they were doing. Game had little to no story anyway.
Emperor: I'd put the "empire" as an entity as more of the main villain here.
Cloud of Darkness: Again, have to say that Xande is the main villain, sort of like Seymour to Sin and Golbez to Zemus. Still not that well written, you're right.
Zeromus: Again, Golbez IS the villain... Zemus/Zeromus is just the entity that he's trying to bring back.
Exdeath: Not gonna argue this one... though you gotta love the anti-environmentalism. "KILL THE TREE! KILLITKILLITKILLIT!"
Kefka: The best villain in any game ever. Yes, Woolesy definitely was responsible for a lot of Kefka's comedy... but the situational interference and "in your face-ness" that Kefka had made him great. He wasn't some aloft power, he was a jerk, and he was ALWAYS there, one step ahead of you to laugh and bounce his way away as you have to stumble through the damage he JUST caused. He reminds me of a comic book villain... it was brilliance.
Sephiroth: Would have made a better protagonist than antagonist. Would have much rather seen a conflicted hero than watch him just go insane and sprout his Oedipus complex.

- Guardian Force, Junction, and Draw systems were all horribly implemented, unbalanced and exploitable

I'm willing to give this one to you, except that I like exploitable game mechanics, because they make the player input more meaningful. In most FF games the player can simply level up and trounce all the bosses, but in FF8 you actually have to figure the system out in order to succeed. I can understand though if it's too hard for you to comprehend complex game mechanics!

I said the mechanics were broken and exploitable... not difficult. They made the game easy.

- The Draw system broke what it means to be a video game and turned it into a mindless chore (not even a grind, an outright chore)

See above. No more a chore than grinding for AP, job points, etc. It's purely your opinion.

It broke apart the standard grind and added a separate grind. So not only did it have the usual "gold/xp" grind of the other games, it ADDED a "mining" grind. Hence making it chore-like.

So all your criticisms apply easily to past games. If you didn't like 8 that's fair, but don't re-write history to suit your arguments.

What am I rewriting? I thought all of this info was publicly available.

 

[Dedae]

Princess's (lol) perspective is negative, but his points are still valid and worth taking into consideration, as long as everyone keeps in mind that what someone hates, other people might love.

...

What do you mean by "this type of game" exactly? jRPG's? Final Fantasy's?

Granted I haven't played an FF game since since Final Fantasy 8 but I just found them really really boring. Nothing against Final Fantasy 7, I'm not calling it a bad game but I was bored out of my mind playing what many consider the pinnacle of the jrpg genre. Even games that mixed up the formula like Xenosaga, Lunar or SaGa Frontier, I don't know if it was the dull combat or the characters or long dialogue or lack of action or the fact that they are so f-ing long, but I can't stand them. When your running around the map do you still hit invisible enemies that jump you into combat screens? I always hated that too.

Super Mario RPG and Chrono Trigger are my only two exceptions. Don't ask me why, I can't explain it, but I love those two games, and don't like anything Final Fantasy.

But just because I don't like them doesn't mean they are bad, but tons of people attack reviews/reviewers just to defend their game. I've caught a lot of stick at Gametrailers for my review and recent comments about Dante's Inferno. You love Final Fantasy 7 or Dante's Inferno and don't agree with me? Congratulations now shut the hell up you mean nothing to me.

 

[SavingPrincess]

When your running around the map do you still hit invisible enemies that jump you into combat screens? I always hated that too.
---
Super Mario RPG and Chrono Trigger are my only two exceptions. Don't ask me why, I can't explain it, but I love those two games, and don't like anything Final Fantasy.

Possibly because those two games didn't use the "random battle" mechanic? Sounds like the formula for you is to be able to see your enemies on the map before you fight them.

Did you ever play Final Fantasy VI? Xenogears? Secret of Mana?

 

[Dedae]

By six do you mean three? Either way I never played them new, I was too young. I played most of SNES final fantasy games recently but of course they are old now so I'm not in a position to formulate an impartial opinion. However, I found them really boring, but really liked Chrono Trigger and Super Mario RPG despite only playing them recently too, so maybe that says something about the SNES FF games. No I never played Secret of Mana or Xenogears, I'm only one girl who can only play so much!!!

I spent the day yesterday going over about a dozen old Nintendo games to help educate myself but give me a break most of you guys have like 10 years on me!

 

[stok3r]

There seems to be quite a bit of jRPG hate in the world. I have a theory as to why this is:

Let's say you had a friend tell you about this rock concert they went to. It was one of the best concerts ever, the lights were awesome, the stage was amazing, the music was perfect; everything just seemed to come together in some magical way. Excited because you've never seen a rock show before, you look up when the next tour from this band is coming; the only problem is that the lead singer, the guy who started everything, left the band and they're touring on an album they'd written and released after said breakup; oh, and everyone in the band has switched instruments. Still, in the history of this band, no matter what members they've interchanged (except the singer) they've rarely put on a bad show and have developed a huge cult following. So, you see that the band is coming to your town and you plop down your $49.99 for a ticket, drive there, find parking, walk in, take your seat and get ready for the show.

What you end up experiencing however, is a cluster of sappy half-hearted emo love songs and hours of needless repetitive rhythm tracks.

You leave completely confused as to what the fuss is about, and with good reason. Up until now this band had garnished very little attention from the world outside of Japan and only did occasional tours in your country, and after having seen this show, you don't feel as if you were missing much at all. This one single experience has turned you off the entire genre and you'll never look back.

This is what happened for western cultures with the release of Final Fantasy VIII (that's 8 for you non-Romans). Hot off the heels of the jRPG that made everyone sit up and take notice (Final Fantasy VII), Final Fantasy VIII's chance to knock the ball out of the park was unavoidable. It would be a hit, it would be the best Final Fantasy to date, and it would show the world just what they were missing.

Then it all went wrong... horribly wrong.

Here's a quick list of the obvious problems first because they're not the REAL problem, which will be discussed in a moment:

• - Disjointed overall story arc
  - Totally unremarkable inconsequential supporting cast
  - Boring and distant villain(s)
  - Guardian Force, Junction, and Draw systems were all horribly implemented, unbalanced and exploitable
  - The Draw system broke what it means to be a video game and turned it into a mindless chore (not even a grind, an outright chore)

Now, here's what actually went wrong. In the house of Final Fantasy, artistic positions seem to operate more like jobs on a corporate ladder. There's the producer, director, artists, writers, designers, and so on. Now, it's rare from an artistic standpoint, to find a great writer who is also a great director, or to find a great concept artist that would make a good producer, and that concept is what broke Final Fantasy's back.

Up through Final Fantasy VII, the Final Fantasy projects have always been closely watched over by series creator Hironobu Sakaguchi. During the creation and production of Final Fantasy VIII however, Sakaguchi was hard at work on Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within and only served as a distant "Executive Producer" role leaving the direction solely to former writer Yoshinori Kitase, who was a writer and co-director on Final Fantasy VI and VII. With the writing position vacant so that Kitase can focus on directing, Kazushige Nojima, who was newly brought onto the Final Fantasy VII team as a "scenario writer," took over the job of lead writer coming up with the story and characters for Final Fantasy VIII and having much of the creative control over the game as a whole. Nojima had said he wanted the protagonist to be "quiet" and "reserved" and "like Cloud" but with the ability to "hear what the character is thinking."

This amounted to the "emo-ness" of Squall, the protagonist from the game, and with scrutinizing eyes of the world focused on this genre, the stereotypical jRPG "emo-tagonist" was born.

Then there's Tetsuya Nomura. Nomura was the character designer for Final Fantasy VII, VIII, X, X-2 and XIII and replaced Yoshitaka Amano as the lead series character designer in that position with the exception of Final Fantasy IX & XI. Before that however, Nomura was hired on at Square as a "debugger" for Final Fantasy IV, was "promoted" to the "monster designer" for Final Fantasy V, then "promoted" to "graphic director" and "minor character designer" for Final Fantasy VI before taking over as lead-character designer for Final Fantasy VII. With Nomura having even more creative control over the art direction of Final Fantasy VIII than the previous title with Amano completely out of the picture, coupled with the PlayStation maturing graphically and SquareSoft having more experience with the hardware, Nomura was able to more realistically portray his ideal for the Final Fantasy protagonist and because of the success of Final Fantasy VII, went completely unchallenged.

Again, with all eyes looking on the release of this highly anticipated title, this helped solidify the androgynous male-protagonist stereotype that exists today.

Going down the list of developers involved in this title, you will see that everyone sort of "moved up a step." The seemingly only case that goes against this is the ever impeccable Nobuo Uematsu who wrote yet another brilliant musical score as he has done for the entire series up to Final Fantasy XI in which he only did select themes (so, yay for musicians writing music. It's what we do).

What this ultimately amounts to is a ton of inexperienced experience. While most of the team were used to working on Final Fantasy titles in the past, for many crucial key roles, the experience was new to them. Couple that with the fact that Papa Sakaguchi was MIA working on various other projects, and what you have is the first Final Fantasy that didn't really feel like a Final Fantasy.

Many, many people loved Final Fantasy VIII for what it was, but what it was left many Final Fantasy series fans questioning what direction their beloved series was going to take. The commercial success of Final Fantasy VIII was not indicative of its quality or reception, as most people bought it simply because of the title alone. In story, design, art, theme and system, it was a vast departure from those leading up to it.

It can be (and will by me) be argued that Final Fantasy VIII is a bad game; but at the very least it can be argued that it was a bad Final Fantasy. Kitase and Nojima stated that they wanted the "opposite" feel of the previous title in that Final Fantasy VII had a "light coming from darkness" theme to it, so instead started everything all cheery and drove it into the dark. It could also be said that they were going for the opposite of Final Fantasy VII in that Final Fantasy VII was a good game that had a good story and was fun to play... and they were going for the opposite of that.

They succeeded.

... and if you want me to go in depth on WHY the story and mechanics of the game were "bad," I will happily do so; but be forewarned, if you love this game I will make you cry... so you might just want to love it in private.

-SP

Dude. I don't know if its just me, but I don't like VII. Sure, I didn't play it at the time, but still, I think that VIII is better than VII.

Maybe its just cause I played heaps of RPGs before I got VII, but it seems.. generic..

Also, I'm not one who usually cares about graphics, but they are REALLY off-putting. I mean, seriously. I know they were good back then, but now, it makes the game hard to play. I much prefer VIII's style. I know graphics don't matter, but its also what makes Persona 3 literally unplayable for me.

And I'm not going into a huge rant on why I think its better, but they are just some of it.

Nothing against Final Fantasy 7, I'm not calling it a bad game but I was bored out of my mind playing what many consider the pinnacle of the jrpg genre

^-- okay this is what I think

 

[SavingPrincess]

By six do you mean three? Either way I never played them new, I was too young. I played most of SNES final fantasy games recently but of course they are old now so I'm not in a position to formulate an impartial opinion. However, I found them really boring, but really liked Chrono Trigger and Super Mario RPG despite only playing them recently too, so maybe that says something about the SNES FF games. No I never played Secret of Mana or Xenogears, I'm only one girl who can only play so much!!!

That's no excuse! I do find that us older folk as a stereotype had a lot more patience back when these games were new. I don't know how old you are, but people from the newer generations seem to definitely require an element of 'upped pacing' to the games... kind of like television was to radio back in the day. More stimulation the better nowadays I suppose.

Since you loved Super Mario RPG have you tried any of the Paper Mario or DS Mario RPG games? I know you're only one girl... but you gotta prioritize!

 

[SavingPrincess]

Dude. I don't know if its just me, but I don't like VII. Sure, I didn't play it at the time, but still, I think that VIII is better than VII.

Maybe its just cause I played heaps of RPGs before I got VII, but it seems.. generic..

Also, I'm not one who usually cares about graphics, but they are REALLY off-putting. I mean, seriously. I know they were good back then, but now, it makes the game hard to play. I much prefer VIII's style. I know graphics don't matter, but its also what makes Persona 3 literally unplayable for me.

And I'm not going into a huge rant on why I think its better, but they are just some of it.

Nothing against Final Fantasy 7, I'm not calling it a bad game but I was bored out of my mind playing what many consider the pinnacle of the jrpg genre

^-- okay this is what I think

I wouldn't call Final Fantasy VII the "pinnacle" of jRPG's no more than I would say that Halo is the "pinnacle" of First-Person Shooters... what those games were, were really popular and accessible games. There are betters out there... trust me.

 

[stok3r]

Dude. I don't know if its just me, but I don't like VII. Sure, I didn't play it at the time, but still, I think that VIII is better than VII.

Maybe its just cause I played heaps of RPGs before I got VII, but it seems.. generic..

Also, I'm not one who usually cares about graphics, but they are REALLY off-putting. I mean, seriously. I know they were good back then, but now, it makes the game hard to play. I much prefer VIII's style. I know graphics don't matter, but its also what makes Persona 3 literally unplayable for me.

And I'm not going into a huge rant on why I think its better, but they are just some of it.

Nothing against Final Fantasy 7, I'm not calling it a bad game but I was bored out of my mind playing what many consider the pinnacle of the jrpg genre

^-- okay this is what I think

I wouldn't call Final Fantasy VII the "pinnacle" of jRPG's no more than I would say that Halo is the "pinnacle" of First-Person Shooters... what those games were, were really popular and accessible games. There are betters out there... trust me.

Dude I know that, but with all the freaking hype around it *just maybe* I was expecting to play a game crafted by the very hands of God himself.

Star Ocean, especially the first and second ones, are much better than FFVII, for example. Has anyone here heard of Legend of Kartia? THAT was better then FFVII. I know there are alot better ones out there, cause if VII really was the pinnacle, I wouldn't like JRPGs as much as I do

 

[Divine Miss Bee]

maybe i'm just jaded by bad sequels, but i didn't expect the greatness to go on forever, and i know that can't be the only one who called this when VII was as good as it was. when all the hype was going on, a small group of my friends and i knew it was senseless. "they can't top VII," we said. and we were right. so i got to chill over here in my rightness while the rest of the world stopped in its tracks and felt that growing horror sensation in its collective belly. it's an empty victory, and i'm still waiting to be proven wrong, but i have chosen to keep going with the series and try to like the games for what they are, not what they could have been.

pretty much failed that with VIII, but i'm working out kinks in the system.

 

[Grampy_bone]

So you admit that the storylines in the past games are all pretty ridiculous, and we both agree that Kefka is a fantastic villain, which is an exception to the rule. I liked him because he's still the only FF villain who actually succeeded at what he set out to do.

As for characters, everything you say about the other games applies to FF8. No Quistis? Squall doesn't pass the SeeD exam. It's clear at the beginning that Seifer and Squall are both delinquent "problem students" and the only reason Squall succeeds is because Quistis believes in him (for some reason, though I'd argue Quistis's Teacher/Student crush makes more sense than Tifa's lame childhood promise bullcrap). When Seifer disobeys orders at Dollet Squall approves of it, and it's likely he would have done something similar had he been in command. If this had happened then he would have failed to become a SeeD, washed out of the Garden, fallen in with the Sorceress, et al. That's the great part about FF8's protagonist; He could have just as easily been the villain. No Selphie? The team dies at Dollet. No Irvine? They never attempt the assassination of Edea, get captured, and learn of the missile attacks on the Gardens. No Zell? The party lacks a hideout in occupied Balamb

It's the same in each game. The secondary characters are introduced for one or two relevant plot points and then fade into the background for the rest of the game.

The need to Draw spells in FF8 has been greatly overstated. I fail to see how it's any different from grinding for AP for materia, Magic Points for Espers, Job points for class abilities, etc. Many FF games have "secondary leveling systems" in them. Its like in FF6 you grind for XP in the dragon forest, collect magic points from cactuars, and gain Gau's Rages on the Veldt. Saying you need to spend hours drawing spells in FF8 is like saying you need to spend hours growing/splitting Materia in FF7. Sure, it makes the game easier, but it's never *required.* It's actually quite feasible to make it through FF8 with minimal Drawing; once you get the ability to refine spells from items you never *need* to do it again.

Also, you're contradicting yourself here. You say the system is exploitable and thus too easy, yet you admit the game is very hard if your characters are not optimized (calling this a "Class A bug"). So which is it? Too easy or too hard? Compare this to FF6 or FF7 where the end bosses are a complete joke if you've spent any amount of time leveling up. Ultimecia presents a stiff challenge even to a well-prepared party.

When I say that you are rewriting history I'm referring to how you grant higher undeserved status to past games which present the exact same faults as the game you are attacking.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Great dissection of FF8!

I would like to point out that without a guide or FAQ to guide you, FF8 can actually be a challenging game (until you trip over the Aura spell anyway) because all of the broken stuff is well hidden, or at least not immediately obvious.

My biggest complaint with the Final Fantasy series from 7 onward (excluding 9, oddly enough), gameplay-wise, is that Squaresoft/Squeenix eliminated character role entirely, replacing it with the rubberstamp model. That is, 90% of a character's attributes and abilities were interchangeable, so in essence, you were only picking a character for their Limit Break and model, as those were the only unique traits to that character.

(Before someone says it: FFX International Version started everyone at the center of the sphere grid, eliminating role except for the models you chose, and their Overdrives).

Complaint #2: The art direction under Nomura is a waking nightmare.
Dirge of Cerberus has to have some of the most ridiculous art direction ever undertaken in a game that's trying to be serious. It's like one of those cheaply drawn shock-anime's where the characters and premise are so surreal and stupid looking because the leading artist is trying to damn hard to be "original".

At least the art direction in Dirge goes with the story: Insane, stupid, and woefully inept while being strangely surreal for all the wrong reasons.

(On that note.. Everyone [except one character] in FF9 looks like they have some sort of terminal brain cancer. I understand that the head sizes were exaggerated to emphasize facial features, but good GOD, are some of the models awful. Zidane's adopted father looks like Booster from Super Mario RPG.)

Another strike against RPGs though, is probably the recent rise of backlash against "grind" (possibly influenced by World of Warcrap: The Quest for More Money). I just finished looking over a Lets Play of Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Saga and most of the challenge from that game looks like it comes from just getting money to buy the abilities you need.

To beat the game on a first playthrough, it appears that you have to grind for a minimum of 2 hours per hour of story. So, at best, you are doing nothing but goddamn busywork for roughly 66% of the time you spend playing.
That's using an FAQ to maximize efficiency. And a map to get through the repetitive dungeons.

And just about every single JRPG has this at some point in the game. It's hard to justify creating a strong, well balanced tactical metagame that requires you to master it once, and then nearly die of boredom once you get the setup right just to progress in the story.
In fact, that paragraph perfectly describes FF12..an automated setup where you grind yourself mercilessly (do a search for "Danguerro" and look at what goes into THAT grind. It's absolutely batshit INSANE. Optional, but why the fuck would anyone subject themselves to THAT?!).

 

[SavingPrincess]

As for characters, everything you say about the other games applies to FF8. No Quistis? Squall doesn't pass the SeeD exam. (Only time she's important.) It's clear at the beginning that Seifer and Squall are both delinquent "problem students" and the only reason Squall succeeds is because Quistis believes in him (for some reason, though I'd argue Quistis's Teacher/Student crush makes more sense than Tifa's lame childhood promise bullcrap) (And way hotter.). When Seifer disobeys orders at Dollet Squall approves of it, and it's likely he would have done something similar had he been in command. If this had happened then he would have failed to become a SeeD, washed out of the Garden, fallen in with the Sorceress, et al. That's the great part about FF8's protagonist; He could have just as easily been the villain. (But just came off as an unlikable protagonist) No Selphie? The team dies at Dollet. (Only time she's important too, though even that's arguable, as it could have likely been another character) No Irvine? They never attempt the assassination of Edea (Why not?), get captured, and learn of the missile attacks on the Gardens. (again, why not?) No Zell? The party lacks a hideout in occupied Balamb (Could have been provided by an npc)

It's the same in each game. The secondary characters are introduced for one or two relevant plot points and then fade into the background for the rest of the game. (I'd say Final Fantasy IV & VI don't fall to this. The entire cast of Final Fantasy VI becomes relevant again in the second half of the game for new and different reasons, and characters like Rydia, Yang, Cid, and Edward... pretty much all of them have multiple points in the story where the omission of their entire storyline up to that point break the events of the story overall, not the case with Final Fantasy VIII which was about Squall, Rinoa and Seifer... and that's about it)

The need to Draw spells in FF8 has been greatly overstated. (Unless you want to use magic, otherwise it's just attack all the time) I fail to see how it's any different from grinding for AP for materia, Magic Points for Espers, Job points for class abilities, etc. Many FF games have "secondary leveling systems" in them. Its like in FF6 you grind for XP in the dragon forest, collect magic points from cactuars, and gain Gau's Rages on the Veldt. Saying you need to spend hours drawing spells in FF8 is like saying you need to spend hours growing/splitting Materia in FF7. Sure, it makes the game easier, but it's never *required.* It's actually quite feasible to make it through FF8 with minimal Drawing; once you get the ability to refine spells from items you never *need* to do it again.

(Answer to all of that is that drawing magic ONLY gives you magic, every other system you described you are "grinding" more than one thing at a time. In Final Fantasy VIII drawing magic is an action that provides no other benefits other than gaining magic, you don't get experience, you don't get gold, you don't get anything other than more magic... so you have to grind them separately, as sometimes you'll encounter that RARE monster that has the magic you're missing and spending 10-20 minutes on a single battle that nets you negligible other things because you know it could be 30 minutes before you encounter that monster again)

Also, you're contradicting yourself here. (No I'm not, yes I am... am not, are too.) You say the system is exploitable and thus too easy, yet you admit the game is very hard if your characters are not optimized (calling this a "Class A bug"). So which is it? Too easy or too hard? (Neither, it's called broken, as your party can easily become godlike, but unless you do things very specifically, a certain point in the game becomes impassable despite previous godlike status, that's NOT difficulty, it's poor design) Compare this to FF6 or FF7 where the end bosses are a complete joke if you've spent any amount of time leveling up (I agree, way too easy... one of my major gripes too). Ultimecia presents a stiff challenge even to a well-prepared party.(that is IF your party/gf's/magic isn't mistakenly broken and it's impossible to get through the dungeon to get to her and have to start the game over)

When I say that you are rewriting history I'm referring to how you grant higher undeserved status to past games which present the exact same faults as the game you are attacking.(Same perceived faults, which is fine)

I see where you're coming from on all accounts, but for every fault that other games in the series may have, Final Fantasy VIII makes them a focal point. Are some other characters in other games unimportant, sure... but not nearly all of them like in Final Fantasy VIII. Are some games "grindtastic?" Sure... you rarely have to choose what you're grinding, as focusing on one will likely give you pieces of the other. Sure, there are some enemies that give you like 10AP and 1 EXP/1 GIL, but that's ONE enemy, and you don't have to fight them, it's just a choice if you happen to want THAT type of thing... rather than making EVERY enemy a choice between just finishing the fight for exp/gil or grinding that one enemy for magic. See what I mean?

You're points about the other games are valid they're just not strong... I said that Final Fantasy VIII was the worst in the series for various reasons, that's not to say those reasons aren't spread out through other games, they're just the most intensely concentrated in this ONE game. That's all.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

Make me cry. I challenge you.

Onyx are you flamebaiting me?

Quite simply, Final Fantasy VIII is the worst attempt at a cohesive narrative in not only the Final Fantasy world, but in most of video gaming, and media in general. Nothing connects in any sort of sensible way, 80% of the characters are pointless, the "villain" is one of the weakest and least threatening in the series lineage, the battle system is a joke and unintentionally exploitable. In contrast, if you don't exploit it in just the right way, the endgame becomes completely impassable to the point of having to start the game over entirely; that's not difficulty, that's a bug (a "Class A" bug to use an industry term, in where a "Class A" bug is a bug that hard locks, crashes, or otherwise makes game progression impossible).

Keep in mind this is coming from a veritable "fanboy" of the series... I LOVE Final Fantasy and have spent more money on that single franchise than I have on any other (save for maybe Castlevania just for volume purposes), so it's not like I'm a "hater" or don't like jRPG's or something. I take games, and play them, and even if I love them, I can point out where they went wrong and parts of a game that I love that are bad. Mystic Quest was an AWFUL game, but I enjoyed the heck out of it... kind of like a bad "B Movie"... but Final Fantasy VIII was not a bad "B Movie," it was a horribly shallow "AAA Blockbuster". It's the Jersey Girl of Final Fantasy's, the Gigli, the Transformers 2.

Squall was a horrible protagonist and never even became likable. He was like the side character that quietly broods and no one pays attention to until he commits some kind of horrible betrayal at some point in the story, only he never became that interesting or deep, and he was the protagonist! It's as if they wrote the Laguna story, fleshed it out, made everything fit, and then wrote a game around it and shoved the more sensible Laguna narrative violently into the middle of this jelly-doughnut of a game; but like, the jelly and the dough were reversed... like a jelly-doughnut where the outside is made of jelly and the dough is on the inside. It's like, sure all the pieces are there, but now your hands are covered in jelly and you've made a mess everywhere. It would have been better to just have a cup of jelly or a doughnut...

Squall was bad...but Selphie was worse! I loved the combat FOR its "weaknesses", drawing magic, and treating it like items was unique, and actually, in retrospect reminds me of one of my favorite RPGs ever, SaGa Frontier, which I played AFTER FF8. Before I go further...did you ever play SaGa Frontier?

Anyway, as for the villain, it was a nice change for the "Standard" overpowered villain.

 

[SavingPrincess]

Squall was bad...but Selphie was worse! I loved the combat FOR its "weaknesses", drawing magic, and treating it like items was unique, and actually, in retrospect reminds me of one of my favorite RPGs ever, SaGa Frontier, which I played AFTER FF8. Before I go further...did you ever play SaGa Frontier?

Anyway, as for the villain, it was a nice change for the "Standard" overpowered villain.

I did play SaGa Frontier but admittedly totally ignored the game mechanics for the unique storytelling style and art direction... as in to say I don't really remember the mechanics that well.