Hey Dragon, You Can Have Her: Final Fantasy VIII

[Onyx Oblivion]

Squall was bad...but Selphie was worse! I loved the combat FOR its "weaknesses", drawing magic, and treating it like items was unique, and actually, in retrospect reminds me of one of my favorite RPGs ever, SaGa Frontier, which I played AFTER FF8. Before I go further...did you ever play SaGa Frontier?

Anyway, as for the villain, it was a nice change for the "Standard" overpowered villain.

I did play SaGa Frontier but admittedly totally ignored the game mechanics for the unique storytelling style and art direction... as in to say I don't really remember the mechanics that well.

Okay. It had 7 characters, each of which had their own story and possible parties. So quests were shared between them, generally the "magic gift" quests.

There were 4 types of characters...Humans, Mystics, Monsters, and Robots. Each of these had different methods of managed equipment and skills. I am thinking of the robots...Where whatever you equipped adjusted stats and abilites. And I mean WHATEVER you equipped. You could equip them with fucking healing items.

 

[SavingPrincess]

Okay. It had 7 characters, each of which had their own story and possible parties. So quests were shared between them, generally the "magic gift" quests.

There were 4 types of characters...Humans, Mystics, Monsters, and Robots. Each of these had different methods of managed equipment and skills. I am thinking of the robots...Where whatever you equipped adjusted stats and abilites. And I mean WHATEVER you equipped. You could equip them with fucking healing items.

I do remember the multiple story arcs part... that's what I liked... reminded me of Rudra no Hiho, Seiken Densetsu 3, Raibu A Raibu and all the other AWESOME Square RPG's that never made it over here. >.<

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

Okay. It had 7 characters, each of which had their own story and possible parties. So quests were shared between them, generally the "magic gift" quests.

There were 4 types of characters...Humans, Mystics, Monsters, and Robots. Each of these had different methods of managed equipment and skills. I am thinking of the robots...Where whatever you equipped adjusted stats and abilites. And I mean WHATEVER you equipped. You could equip them with fucking healing items.

I do remember the multiple story arcs part... that's what I liked... reminded me of Rudra no Hiho, Seiken Densetsu 3, Raibu A Raibu and all the other AWESOME Square RPG's that never made it over here. >.<

Legend of Mana is SD2, right?

That's my ALL TIME favorite JRPG. EVER. And will never lose that spot.

 

[SavingPrincess]

Legend of Mana is SD2, right?

That's my ALL TIME favorite JRPG. EVER. And will never lose that spot.

Close, Secret of Mana is actually Seiken Densetsu II; Legend of Mana is actually called Seiken Densetsu: Legend of Mana in Japan. The original Seiken Densetsu was Final Fantasy Adventure on the original GameBoy, which was called Mystic Quest in Europe which is not to be confused with Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest in the United States, which was called Final Fantasy USA: Mystic Quest in Japan, and Mystic Quest Legend in Europe, not to be confused with Final Fantasy Legend which is actually part of the SaGa series.

=D yay Square.

 

[Grampy_bone]

Snip

It's stated that the Garden wouldn't have sent someone on such a dangerous mission like assassinating the Sorceress without using a "safe" method like a sniper; thus Irvine. Had he not been available: no mission. Then he fails to kill her, causing Squall to attempt to kill her directly, resulting in their capture, which in turn allows them to learn about the Garden attacks. Had this not occurred Balamb Garden would not have been forewarned and thus saved: the Sorceress wins; plot = borked.

*sigh* This is what I hate about internet debates. Even when you prove someone wrong, they can just declare themselves right anyhow. I showed how all of the characters in FF8 were important to the story in the same ways as past FF games (once or twice and then never again), and you responded by saying "Nuh uh!" without showing a single example to back it up other than claiming Selphie was replaceable. No she wasn't, her character being from Trabia Garden is a major impetus for the party to attempt to thwart the Garden missile attacks; did you forget that major plot event where you control her as your lead character and infiltrate the missile base?

Saying a specific character "could have been anybody" is moot; sure the Elder of Mysidia could have sent *anyone* with Cecil instead of the twins, and then whoever he sent would have been just as important as they were (they only exist to save Cecil from the wall-crushing trap and provide magic support during Rosa and Rydia's absence). It's a meaningless statement. Your "could have been anyone" complaint applies to most characters in FF4 (could have been any mages from Mysidia, any martial artist from Fabul, any ninja from Eblan, etc.) Rosa only exists to get captured or sick, Rydia only exists to save the party from Golbez through Deus Ex Machina, Kain only exists to be a dick, etc. These characters are each only important one or two times and that's it.

FF6 is exactly the same. Gau is only important because of his "shiny thing" and that's it, which to use your words could have been provided by an NPC. All they needed was a single NPC saying "Here is a diving helmet you need to get through the Serpent Trench" and *poof!* goodbye Gau. Cyan isn't important, Sabin could have passed through Leo's camp and the Phantom Train without meeting him and the plot wouldn't have been affected at all. Shadow is only important for his act of screwing Kefka just long enough for the party to escape the floating isle and then never again. Relm and Strago are plot exposition characters who could have been NPCs, Mog is indistinguishable from the other moogles, Locke's only job is to help Terra and Celes meet the returners; they could have done these things on their own/he could have been an NPC, etc.

In fact given the open-ended nature of FF6's World of Ruin almost NONE of the characters are important; the only characters that *must* be in your endgame party are Celes, Setzer, and Edgar. All the others are optional! I suspect that you simply *like* the characters from FF4/FF6 better than those from FF8, which is fine, but don't confuse affection for plot importance.

 

[Threx]

I personally don't know why there so much hate. I like the idea of jRPG in there whole.

 

[CmdrGoob]

Final Fantasty VIII is ass.

The characters are mostly unlikable, moronic jerks. Square seems to be trying to rehabilitate them buy making the characters in subsequent series even worse, but regardless FFVIII set the ground with the prototypes like Zell or Selphie or Squall who continue to plague the series like a bad stench.

The plot starts of promising and then just ruins that promise with 3 disks of unmitigated stupidity. Yeah, the idea of being trained mercenaries sent to assassinate an evil sourceress was cool. Having the sorceress turn out to be your fucking childhood nurse, in the most stupid, retarded and pointless plot twists I've ever seen in any sort of medium is not cool. Who the hell thought that was a good idea? And then she's possessed by a villain from the future who wants to fuck up time for no adequately explained reason blahblah it's all so stupid that by the time you're reaching the end and they're explaining that their grand plan to stop the villain from ruining time is to *drumroll* let the villain ruin time, you've pretty much lost so many IQ points to even notice this shit anymore, let alone reflect on how they manage to ruin a promising premise about mercenary schools and political assassinations by chucking it away for this garbage.

They also manage to weave in the world's least convincing romance in there, what with Squall acting like a jerk who acts like he still thinks girls have cooties right up until the moment Rinoa falls unconcious. Then she wakes up again and *bamn* it's back to being a jerk, with Squall literally telling her "I'm not your mom" when she's trying to have a cuddle. Oh yeah, feel the attraction. It sounds like a romance written by a 14 year old boy who's never had a date, and isn't likely to get one until they fucking grow up.

Then there's the gameplay, which is even worse. Anyone quickly realizes that gathering magic is fucking boring in this game, and since using it means you get weaker and you then need to go get more you quickly learn not to bother with magic. Summons are equally pointless because they have a lengthy delay and then a lengthy unskippable animation for not that much damage unless you learn boost and spam a button (fuck that). So you end up doing nothing but spamming attack and limit breaks which is really boring but sadly enough the game is still really easy because limit breaks are absurbly powerful and absurdly easy to get. Especially because the enemy levelling system is broken and levellilng makes the enemies harder, not easier, so as long as you aren't boring enough to grind for no reason, the game remains incredibly easy.

I'm 99% sure people who like this played it as their first RPG when they were age 14 or less, because that's the only way you could be naive enough to like this dull, poorly written crap. Sorry FF8 lovers, but that's the way I see it, and I'm not going to sugar coat it.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Relative plot relevance...well. There's something to be said about "pointless/filler" characters in these games.

For Final Fantasy 8, I found there to be at least a small amount of true relevance for each of the characters. But that's all confined to the first disc (and up to the point where you return to Balamb Garden), and most of these characters are just there to fill out the ranks and give "commentary" for the player; most of them don't really develop much of a personality beyond their token/cliche' designation at the start.

First, there are characters that might as well be called "catalyst characters": These are characters who do not directly move the plot, but act as a supporting role. These are what most of the characters in post FF6-games will be, actually. Tangentially related, but never directly important.

Zell, Selphie, Quistis, and Irvine are all Catalysts. They all do something tangential to the plot, but never really develop beyond what you knew them as at the start, except maybe Irvine, but he's just there to point out one of the absolute worst, most bullshit plot contrivances ever devised (Even Uwe Boll inadvertently used this as a minor plot point in his Alone in the Dark movie. See if you can find it).

On the other hand, perhaps this style of writing was intentional, because the only person that anyone really seems to have a problem with, personality-wise, is Squall. There are NO OTHER lasting conflicts within the group. The entire relationship of their group can be described as "It's one big group hug and Squall doesn't want to join, so lets MAKE HIM!"
Uh, yeah...just a quick question: Weren't they supposed to be trained SPECIAL FORCES?
Did I miss something?

You know, just about every character in FF7 was a Catalyst save for Cloud, Tifa, and Aeris...

A character being relevant/essential in one small segment of the game is hardly compelling evidence as them being a good character. The same exact problem arose in FF12, where the PROTAGONIST has little to no clear motivation to do what he is doing after the first quarter or so of the plot. Same with Penelo and Fran. Balthier was the game's "tour guide" , essentially.

 

[sms_117b]

You generated a lot of heat from your review, whilst I do conseed a lot of your points, the grinding, the chores, the interchangable characters, "the woooooo look at the graphic power we have" (although I thought it was far more prevalent in FFX). I still loved this game, I love this game more than any other FF I have ever played.

I think the Junction-GF system is one of the best systems I've used in a game, magic gathering was a chore but 100 firegas junctions correctly provided a justified bonus. Getting to the end of the game having every character at level 100 (after abusing Tonberry's "lv Up" ability and Shiva's "Doom" ability), each with 8 pages of 100 magics and everyone perfectly junctioned and syncronised with their 2 or 3 GF's gave me such a sense of accomplishment I can't even begin to describe it.

Squall to resonated with me, more than any other character before or since, yeah I was young (13, Holy moley this game came out in '99!), but everyone said me and him were identical even though no-one called me angsty, ever. I never called Squall angsty, (plus back in '99 angsty wasn't common) like me he was reserved, rarley letting out emotions and slowly falling for a girl and not quite sure how to deal with it but still having a slight chivilric-romantic inside him. Oh how I could go on, much like yourself.

But, to each their own I guess, I may disagree here, but I'll continue to read and enjoy your reviews as they're all good. Keep it up please.

 

[Craftybonds]

Honestly, the ancient fanboy war between ff7 and ff8 is way overplayed. Pretty much anyone who played the final fantasy series before the existence of 7 will tell you that 6 is one of their favorites, this doesn't apply to everyone, of course, but most of the fanboys from NES/SNES would admit to as much. what i'm trying to say here, is that most people determine their favorites on whichever they played first

I was one of those kids, i had started out with the series on FF4 on the SNES, and continued on out. 6 is still my favorite to this day, but if we're limiting this strictly to ff7-9, 8 was probably my favorite. the junction system was a really nice update to the standard turn based format, it was essentially the same gameplay mechanic, but there was a truly amazingly level of customization between characters. it felt like i was really tuning the strings of all of my characters, instead of these pre-determined levels of magic, defense, and attack power, that would probably carry your toons through the rest of the game.

the even better part? none of the adjustments were permanent. if there was a boss that was really kicking your ass, you didn't have to go back out and grind yourself retarded until you could, all you had to do was adjust your spell and GF systems. most people disliked this junction system (i guess it was far too complex for them), but i still think it is one of the most perfectly executed systems from a strategical standpoint. not very user friendly, but that isn't something that kept me away from it.

I also look at the completely random story as a plus instead of a negative. a good plot is one thing, but a plot that keeps you thinking, several hours/days after your first encounter? those two can't even be measured. look at the success of LOST.

 

[Craftybonds]

(Answer to all of that is that drawing magic ONLY gives you magic, every other system you described you are "grinding" more than one thing at a time. In Final Fantasy VIII drawing magic is an action that provides no other benefits other than gaining magic, you don't get experience, you don't get gold, you don't get anything other than more magic... so you have to grind them separately, as sometimes you'll encounter that RARE monster that has the magic you're missing and spending 10-20 minutes on a single battle that nets you negligible other things because you know it could be 30 minutes before you encounter that monster again)

You're making this sound like draw magic was the only thing you could ever do. you could gain magic from items and draw points as well. also, it's not like you had to drop everything you were doing and constantly draw magic. characters are able to swap their inventory of magic spells, so i would usually have my healing/support character do nothing but draw when they weren't healing. they did shit damage, so what else were they going to do?

It's almost like...oh what's the phrase...tactical turn planning?

 

[domble]

I'm reminded of that old saying "I disagree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it"... Unfortunately this doesn't seem to apply in the gaming world.

Nah I can understand a lot of what you've said here, and in all honesty I agree with it - but I still love the game. It's not the best game ever and it's not even my favourite of the FF series, but I would still argue that there's a lot to love about it, if only for nostalgic reasons.

Hm... If only I could put my feelings into words and ram them, wholesale, into my tired formatting route... Oh wait, I did

haha good stuff man anyway, I actually enjoyed reading it, you give a lot of detail and insight into the development stages as well as the game itself (something I usually only mention in passing, and even then it's just to chide Hollywood executives) so it's given me a lot to think about.

Kudos, good sir, kudos.

 

[SavingPrincess]

-Snip3-

Nostalgia is a hell of a drug. There are a ton of "bad" games that I go back and still love while thinking to myself "this game is bad." I know I point to it more than a 4 year old seeing his first amputee but Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest for the Super Nintendo is a prime example of this. I think my problem with Final Fantasy VIII is its portrayal of itself. On every level it was being touted as the "next step" from Final Fantasy VII and the dev's all had something to prove with Big Papa Sakaguchi all but gone entirely, so they just kind of hung their pieces out a bit too far and the game development cycle came by and nearly bit them off.

The only shining examples of progression in this game were obviously the "quality" of graphics (though arguments could be said about the art "direction") and the music. Uematsu's score for this game was absolutely brilliant. Final Fantasy VIII arguably has one of the best standard battle themes in the series (Final Fantasy IV previously holds that crown for me), and the opening FMV cutscene's piece, "Liberi Fatali" is special to me because it's the first time an actual orchestra appears in a Final Fantasy game. Laguna's theme, "Man With a Machine Gun" is obnoxiously catchy and was awesome to see performed with an orchestra live when I saw Uematsu's concert in Seattle. The music in the game is chock full of awesomeness... and really the only thing that kept me playing it until the end.

 

[SavingPrincess]

First, there are characters that might as well be called "catalyst characters": These are characters who do not directly move the plot, but act as a supporting role. These are what most of the characters in post FF6-games will be, actually. Tangentially related, but never directly important.

This is absolute truth. I could not have said it better myself.

A character being relevant/essential in one small segment of the game is hardly compelling evidence as them being a good character. The same exact problem arose in FF12, where the PROTAGONIST has little to no clear motivation to do what he is doing after the first quarter or so of the plot. Same with Penelo and Fran. Balthier was the game's "tour guide" , essentially.

That's because Basch is really the main character, but they decided to tell the story from the perspective of Vaan to make it somehow more... erm... relatable. If they'd have told the story from Basch's perspective, you'd have had more of a mature Vagrant Story type of plot and the game would have had a way more serious tone to it... ... and pretty much would have been a better game overall. Even Ashe was a far more serious character and the connection between her and Basch from a political standpoint should have been more of a focus... but Ashe borderlined on being shoved into the "Yuna" role sadly.

Fran was there specifically for fan-created hentai purposes... I'm certain of it.

 

[ShroomMinus]

Meh story, bad junction system, horrible characters that make using a stapler on my balls a better idea than playing this again, the ending cutscene was good (graphics wise and laguna who I loved) I liked it...
I still don't fully understand the story to it, it seems to go from one place to another without explaining anything, as most FF games do, even to date, they still have this problem...
For example, what the hell is with all those Laguna scenes? They all fall to the ground and suddenly you're them? It never gets explained, and if it does, then not properly.

The best bits are the starting missions when you have your seeD exams, after that it all goes pear shaped to me. (I do realise this is on the first disc..)

Honestly, the ancient fanboy war between ff7 and ff8 is way overplayed. Pretty much anyone who played the final fantasy series before the existence of 7 will tell you that 6 is one of their favorites, this doesn't apply to everyone, of course, but most of the fanboys from NES/SNES would admit to as much.

I hated 6 and I played all of them in order.
well from 5 I did, the whole I II and III are confusing as hell...
VII and VIII are pretty much Mario 64 vs Super Mario Sunshine
End of discussion.

 

[Atmos Duality]

That's because Basch is really the main character, but they decided to tell the story from the perspective of Vaan to make it somehow more... erm... relatable. If they'd have told the story from Basch's perspective, you'd have had more of a mature Vagrant Story type of plot and the game would have had a way more serious tone to it... ... and pretty much would have been a better game overall. Even Ashe was a far more serious character and the connection between her and Basch from a political standpoint should have been more of a focus... but Ashe borderlined on being shoved into the "Yuna" role sadly.

Fran was there specifically for fan-created hentai purposes... I'm certain of it.

I actually maintain that in practice, it is actually Ashe who is the main character, not Basch. However, sources have told me(keep in mind this is strictly hearsay) that the original protagonist was indeed meant to be Basch, but was changed as time went on.
It probably didn't help that the lead story writer for FF12 left in the middle of development.

On the other hand, I've seen sources claiming it was Balthier who was intended to be the leader; take that for what you will.

I see Vaan as being a "marketable twit" much like Tidus.

And...I believe you are absolutely correct about Fran. There is absolutely no other reason for her character in the game, though at least the furries in the Square-Enix design team are more subtle with their wishes (or silent commissions of disturbing fan art) than some; Fran is bland and serious throughout the entire game.

 

[SavingPrincess]

I actually maintain that in practice, it is actually Ashe who is the main character, not Basch. However, sources have told me(keep in mind this is strictly hearsay) that the original protagonist was indeed meant to be Basch, but was changed as time went on.
It probably didn't help that the lead story writer for FF12 left in the middle of development.

On the other hand, I've seen sources claiming it was Balthier who was intended to be the leader; take that for what you will.

I see Vaan as being a "marketable twit" much like Tidus.

And...I believe you are absolutely correct about Fran. There is absolutely no other reason for her character in the game, though at least the furries in the Square-Enix design team are more subtle with their wishes (or silent commissions of disturbing fan art) than some; Fran is bland and serious throughout the entire game.

The game definitely suffered when the one of the directors left (not the writer by the way), but most of the confusion in story came in the way of rifts between the two "teams" working on the game. One team, the "Tactics" team, where the people responsible for the more political oriented story, and the other team, the "PlayOnline" team, were (to my knowledge) the ones responsible for trying to make the game more "appealing" to potential fans.

I often wonder how much actual hentai is made by the people who actually come up with/draw these characters professionaly; like Quistis and Fran. How much of it is locked in the basement in a safe for none but the creator and close friends to see...

[sub]... that's a self reflective comment. I would totally do that if I had the ability.[/sub]

 

[Cabisco]

Oh god. 8 was my favorite. 7 isn't even all that great.

That's just "t3h best gaem evar" because it was so many people's first...

I would agree with that statement, then again 7 was my first Final Fantasy and I didn't like it. Then my brother got 8 and I fell in love

May I ask, this is the second FF8 review i've seen in the last day or two, whats caused the sudden reviews?

 

[SavingPrincess]

May I ask, this is the second FF8 review i've seen in the last day or two, whats caused the sudden reviews?

I posted this about 3 weeks ago totally unrelated to anything. I just found this particular game to be interesting in the behind the scenes sense... I honestly don't know why people love this game. Even Domble's review which I consider fantastic even though he looks on the game favorably, cites many issues with the game's story and mechanics. Like I said in other places, nostalgia is a hell of a drug.

 

[Stranger of Sorts]

Wow this has been going on for a while hasn't it? Why anyone is prepared to argue their views on an internet forum when they're not going to get anyone to change their mind is beyond me.

[sub]I think I may have taken the 100th comment...Score![/sub]