Holy crap, folks...this one's a doozy...

[dancinginfernal]

Besides, regardless of what the biological mother remembers, the girl has no memory of the first mother and believes she has lived with her current family her whole life.

So she has no memory of the first 4 years of her life? Oh I do want to see you prove this. Or are you just making shit up?

She was kidnapped at age 2, wise-ass.

She was adopted at 4. For her to believe that she was living with that family her whole life that would require her to not remember any of the first 4 years of her life. And consider yourself reported. Do remember not to insult me if you reply.

Oh my, you're a vicious one.

Excuse me while I go remember how to cower in fear.

Regardless, I responded in hostility to your hostility.

Or are you just making shit up?

 

[Belaam]

Um. She goes to the biological parents. Who hopefully allow visitation from the adoptive.

Kind of appalled that this is a debate. My daughters are one and four respectively. If the one year old were kidnapped and they found her years later, I wouldn't just go, "Eh, she was adopted legally, so I guess she stays with them now." How is this even a debate, much less an 11 page debate?

Not in the least because any adoption involving a kidnapped child is clearly not legal. For the exact same reason that someone who steals a car and then "legally" sells it to me, it's not really legally my car.

 

[Naqel]

When doing "the right thing" fails in either case(what's best for the child vs what's best for the mother), you go by the book.

The book says the child shouldn't even be in the US, much less up for adoption.

It's out of question given the situation for her to stay with her adoptive parents, however harsh it may be for the kid.

 

[dancinginfernal]

Besides, regardless of what the biological mother remembers, the girl has no memory of the first mother and believes she has lived with her current family her whole life.

So she has no memory of the first 4 years of her life? Oh I do want to see you prove this. Or are you just making shit up?

She was kidnapped at age 2, wise-ass.

She was adopted at 4. For her to believe that she was living with that family her whole life that would require her to not remember any of the first 4 years of her life. And consider yourself reported. Do remember not to insult me if you reply.

Oh my, you're a vicious one.

Excuse me while I go remember how to cower in fear.

Regardless, I responded in hostility to your hostility.

Or are you just making shit up?

I pointed out that you were making shit up, which is pretty clear. I'll note that you have failed to actually address the fact she was adopted at 4 in favor of pointless chatter. You say she thinks she's been with this family her whole life, so prove it. Prove she only remembers the last 2.5 years of her life. Really, go on. It's not as if you were just lying to support your side, right?

I made my initial argument based on information inferred from the original post. If said information is false I'll gladly admit my argument has no weight. Since returning to see many people calling him out on his being incorrect and assuming the feelings of the girl, I'd say my arguments against giving the original mother custody are flimsy at best. However, I do persist in believing it is fitting on moral grounds that the daughter at least have some say on whose custody she is put in.

Also, maybe if you didn't pride yourself on pointless hostility in the plane of debate you wouldn't have to report me for a single sarcastic remark. I'm not trying to start a fistfight in the streets, I'm having a casual argument with you on a public forum.

 

[BNguyen]

this sounds about the same as a post about a woman killing another just because she wanted that woman's child. This shouldn't even be debated unless the biological mother is unfit, the child must and needs to be with the blood parents.
I wouldn't care who got my child after being kidnapped that child is mine and no one else's. Sucks to be the adoptive parents but they shouldn't be a factor in this.
In fact, legally, they would be accessories to the kidnapping as well as human trafficking even if they had no prior knowledge they are still involved.

besides, no one could afford visitation like this situation, coming and going from Guatemala just to spend maybe 3 days at a time pretty much every other week is ludicrous.

 

[Use_Imagination_here]

She's effectively been raised by this family. She shouldn't have to adapt to a completely different family and a completely different country with a different language at this point. The whole conflict gets simpler when you ignore what the mother wants and what the adopers want and focus on the girl. Of course the mother should get to visit her.

 

[Namehere]

Well heard and seen it all here today. I'm voting... best interests of the Child. I'm not saying I know what that is, not that I think anyone else posting here is absolutely sure what that is either. I'm just saying I hope that is the primary consideration of any deliberation in the courts over this issue. Anything else seems to me to be absurd.

 

[Piorn]

Taking a 7-year-old child away from the family because of some birthright is just selfish.
The mother should leave the kid at the family that raised it.

Just imagine, being taken away from your family, having to leave your home country to live among strangers in guatemala. Horrifying.

 

[EightGaugeHippo]

The kid should stay with her adoptive parents. She is only seven, and anyone on the escapist who's parents spilt up when they where young can agree that adapting to a new family at that age is difficult. So I can only imagine how hard it would be in a situation of this magnitude.
Of course her biological parents should have every right to come to see her when ever they can/want to and when the child reaches her teens maybe she should have her own choice who she wants to live with.

Thats my thoughts on this. But either way what ever happens I hope its right for the kid.

 

[halfeclipse]

It's entirely possible that she was kidnapped, abandoned, and then discovered by authorities, who then put her into an adoption agency.

As far as the morality goes, it is a very difficult issue. I'm thinking that the child should go back to her original mother, providing that she can properly care for the child. It would be sad for teh adoptive parents, but it seems like the right thing to do.

By the standards of a first world nation, chances are she can't. Guatemala isn't exactly a great country

Off the failed state index:
Demographic Pressures: 7.3
Refugees and IDPs: 5.6
Group Grievance: 6.9
Human Flight: 6.5
Uneven Development: 7.7
Poverty and Decline: 6.5
Legitimacy of the State: 6.8
Public Services: 6.9
Human Rights and Rule of Law: 6.9
Security Apparatus: 7.6
Factionalized Elites: 6.0
External Intervention: 5.3
Total: 80.1

Each is scored on a 1-10, high numbers are bad.

It's not exactly Somalia, but there isn't a 1st world nation with a FSI over 50, most under 40 and and a dozen or so under 30.



The answer needs to be what's best for the child, not what's best for the parents (Adoptive or otherwise.)

 

[MyNameIsNowNotMyName]

I feel for the child's mother. This is her little girl - her hopes, her dreams and her child. She has been fighting tooth and nail to find her for years and now there is a chance all she will get is: "sorry. New family now. You can't have her".

There isn't a right answer to this. I think the best solution would be to allow both families to be involved in her life - but that is hard considering one is from Guatemala and one is from the States.

Leave her in Missouri. I mean honestly, how many people here think she would really be better off living in Guatemala than she would be living in the US?

That doesn't make sense.

It would've made a little more sense if you kept reading, but I'm not sure if that was an edit...

 

[kuolonen]

I think I've heard of a precedent case for this kind of legal issue.

Solution was simple: get a sword and cut the child in half. One half for biological mother and the other half for the foster parents.

 

[Vaishnav Reddy]

Boo-hoo, my kid was kidnapped and adopted and has been gone for five years now but I want her back.

The kid is my PROPERTY! I -deserve- it back!

Preposterous.

Biology doesn't mean shit, when it comes to a child identifying with their parents. We've shown that time and time again, with adoption and adopted families. What matters is trust and emotional attachment. The girl has no memory at all of her biological family.

The idea of 'justice' being to rip the child from the family she DOES know, throw her into a 'foreign' (that's to HER, as well, folks) country, and tell her that her NEW family is actually these OTHER people? It's ridiculous.

It's more than ridiculous. IT'S BLATANTLY STUPID.


I get it. We're all materialistic and greedy, even about our offspring. Nevermind that we can always make more, we're possessive of the ones we have. It's a genetic thing, really. Ensures the species survives.

But what I don't get is that anyone actually has the gall to act like this is SENSIBLE.

You want to fuck up a kid for life? Take them from their parents. Give them new parents. Then take them from their parents again. If you're lucky, they learn how to cope with change... and then have difficulties maintaining a stable lifestyle with any kind of emotional attachments to anybody.

"Congratulations! It's a Sociopath!"

The girl belongs with the parents she knows. And as long as she knows that they aren't her biological parents, which ought to be REQUIRED, she ought to be given the choice to maintain contact with said biological parents if she so chooses. She's seven. That's old enough to know whether or not you want to talk to somebody. And that gives her plenty of time to get to know her biological family and reform all those severed attachments.

But she's already got one to the family she has now. Legal or not. And severing her familial bonds AGAIN is just asking for all kinds of trouble.

This. Just simply this.

 

[Vaishnav Reddy]

There is one solution where you make the kidnappers pay for relocating either set of parents.

Captcha -: very nice. Why , thank you.