How did The Escapist's culture change so much?

[Fappy]

Has the site not been in a decline since the 2009-2011 era? Going back to page 20 of the off-topic discussion brings you back 2 months instead of 20 days. The fourms seem nowhere near as active as they were, and it only seems to be getting worse.

I haven't seen any of the celebrities, such as Daystar, for quite a while. For someone who used to attempt to make threads based on a funny and original premise/idea(and not of the x is trapped in a whirlpool with y variety) it was disheartening to see your thread gain 70 or so replies, while the weekly friendzone/double-standards/feminist thread managed to reach the 250-500 mark(though, to be fair, friendzone threads seem nowhere near as prominent as they once were).

Daystar quit the site (outside RPs) some time ago. He just got tired of all the bullshit, really. Don't blame him.

 

[Zontar]

I don't recall people being offended by the articles which started GamerGate. Angry, yet, at being insulted, but not offended. There's a difference between anger and offence. They can overlap but they aren't the same thing.

Hmm, I'm inclined to agree with IceForce here. What is the difference between GamerGaters feeling angry about articles calling 'gamers' dead, and, say, a transgendered person finding the Pillars of Eternity joke insulting?

Simple, in the case of GamerGate the companies in question explicitly attacked and insulted members of our community, and did so through a means which they directly made income from doing so.

Pillars of Eternity, on the other hand, had a joke that arguably didn't even reference a transgendered person that didn't paint anyone except a straight man who happened to be full of himself in any negative light, and for those playing the game could be easily ignored, assuming they ever found it at all (compared to the hard to miss articles that anyone frequenting the sites in question couldn't miss if they tried).

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

I posted a link to an Escapist article on my facebook wall and got a response along the lines of "eww, the escapist is a bunch of gamergate creeps" and it got me thinking. I've been coming to this site since back when it was an online magazine, I've been a paying subscriber for years, but somehow I'd missed the transformation taking place.

I felt that it was a safe place, where we weren't like the people on Joystiq or PC Gamer, we were more civil, more considerate. The Escapist was a place where a comic like WHITE GUY DEFENSE FORCE GO! ( http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comicsandcosplay/comics/critical-miss/10597-WHITE-GUY-DEFENSE-FORCE-GO ) could be run with a minimum of controversy, where there were people like Movie Bob who could give more analysis to a movie than just "EXPLOSION GOOD".

Now I look at the list of popular forum posts and they're all about how men are oppressed, how women are stupid, exactly the sort of stuff that I'd loved this site for avoiding. How did the site's culture change so fast? Is it a coarsening of the gaming community at large, or is it just the new people? Was I wrong to think that this site was ever any different than all the others?

Did you miss the point in the sites evolution where it became incredibly insular and unwelcoming of any opinion outside of a pretty small sphere of acceptable views? I don't want a "safe-space", I want diversity of opinion. Anything else is boring and can only lead to ridiculously self-congratulating and lazy thinking.

I honestly believe that if you think this site is civil, you're just not paying attention. It's not civil, or adult... It's passive-aggressive... Infuriatingly passive aggressive. You wouldn't be impressed by it in real-life, so why is it clever on a forum? See it for what it is: Childish petulance masquerading in adult clothing. The sleeves are clearly too long and the shoes won't stay on the feet.

 

[Snotnarok]

Honestly I rarely post anymore because I've gotten typical youtube responses here where my opinion on a game isn't valid because it scored well and sold well, so I'm an idiot for not liking it.
As you said, community used to be different and if that happened you'd likely get someone saying "hey, everyone is different"

Now it's the front page covered in top-10 lists and comments I feel are 10 IQ points away from being in all caps.

The mods immediately ban or warn people who use ad hominems against posters for stating their opinion. So I guess you must have been reading a different forum. This is the forum where people write half a book to support their opinion, you must be confusing this place with tumblr where people reply with "shut the fuck up shitlord" or "I love your male tears" when people make a valid argument.

If they make a direct obvious insult or someone reports them.
I never bothered because if someone is going to waste their time trying to tell you your opinion is wrong on a game because of numbers or other subjective nonsense, while being aggressive/passive aggressive about it, it's at that stage more interesting to see where their crazy mind lays.

Find a popular game, movie, whatever with a big fanbase, say you dislike it and give all the valid reasons you like, you're wrong and stupid because it's on a top ten list somewhere or it's loved by everyone, I mean obviously right? That's how personal opinions work. I know the escapist has been better with that kind of mentality in general than say...well, your examples honestly but even in person you'll still be called an idiot for simply having a different opinion on something that has nostalgic backing or fanatical fans or, again is on a list.
Hell, look at Yahzee's video of Smash Brothers; not all that hate came from off-site.

I mean no offense, you're sat here telling me I'm wrong in my experiences on a forum, why? What evidence do you have and why are you telling me it's impossible? Do you know me? Have you followed my posts for the several years I've been here? I'm not offended or anything, but this is an example of being called wrong for silly reasons. Could I be lying? Sure, easily could. It's the internet but I don't really have much reason to lie. I liked the escapist, I think some people are a bit snobby about being on the site but it's mostly far more better than making a post on youtube where you'll certainly be called something stupid for no reason.

Rules be damnedI had someone say something incredibly rude to me, on this forum mind you, because I admitted something personal that he couldn't wrap his brain around. Yeah, he got banned but I still got insulted for being different, on this forum.

Yes it's the escapist, it's also on the internet where you're only right if you have followers or a phone to swat someone.

Edit: had to yank out part of a post after browser crashed mid typing, brilliant.

 

[Lightknight]

Snip

What it boils down to is people using their opinions to try to invalidate the opinion of someone else is where I actually have a problem.

Which is what transsexuals are frequently guilty of when they demand people use a pronoun that the other individuals may identify as something sex-based rather than gender based. They steamroll other peoples opinions of a term and what constitutes sex when transgendered individuals have a different gender, not sex.

Most humour is offensive to someone. Which in and of it self is fine. If someone is particularly offended by a joke, or anything else, then they do have the right to protest against it if they want. Where I get miffed with the whole situation is when either party asserts their opinion on the matter as more important than another persons opinion. Just because one person wasn't personally offended and another was doesn't mean that either party is inherently right. It's rather stupid to try and make someone be offended, or not offended by something they find offensive, or not offensive. No more no less.

There's a difference between "That offends me, here's why" and "That offends me, I DEMAND that you change it or self-censor or I'm going to huff and puff and throw paint on your fur coats".

Being offended doesn't mean you demand other people to change. It means you go somewhere else as a customer. It is a shame that we mob up when offended and demand art be altered to accommodate our own sensibilities.

A joke, once made, should stand. It should potentially be apologized for, but the art should stand and survive as is.

 

[EvilRoy]

Now I look at the list of popular forum posts and they're all about how men are oppressed, how women are stupid, exactly the sort of stuff that I'd loved this site for avoiding. How did the site's culture change so fast? Is it a coarsening of the gaming community at large, or is it just the new people? Was I wrong to think that this site was ever any different than all the others?

From what I've gathered most other gaming websites told Gamgergaters to piss off and the Escapist didn't. Also there's Alexander Maxis who owns the website and is rather pro-Gamgergate. Those Gamergate interviews this website had back when all this shit started, they were done by him. He also interviewed Adam Baldwin where it became pretty clear he supported Gamergate. So the people who used those other websites left and came here.

Now we're at the stage where The Escapist is having wide spread lay-offs/people leaving and are hiring people like Brandon Morse who's a transphobe.

Thanks for naming the owner of The Escapist. I was wondering who the prick is who's responsible for the departures of the most talented critics on the site.

This explains a lot, especially why the Escapist moved from dealing with relatively serious issues to fluffy nonsense.

The problem with ownership is that the owner can never be the one who's fired. To paraphrase The Watchmen - "Who owns the owners?". Nobody, and that's just how capitalism likes it.

Alexander Marcus does not own the escapist - the poster you're quoting is a bit confused or maybe being facetious? Defy Media owns the escapist, and Marcus works for them. It's not even well known what-if any-role he had in people being let go. Marcus seemed to know more about it that most, but that shouldn't be surprising regarding his position. Whether or not he had any say, he would at least be aware of the decision making process. He was the co-founder of the escapist as well, so if you want to blame him for the talented critics being let go, then you also have to blame him for getting them in the first place.

 

[TheMigrantSoldier]

That WGDF comic had no controversy? That's not what I remember. I still think of the loads of painfully ironic "retort" edits.

 

[13CBS]

Pillars of Eternity, on the other hand, had a joke that arguably didn't even reference a transgendered person that didn't paint anyone except a straight man who happened to be full of himself in any negative light, and for those playing the game could be easily ignored, assuming they ever found it at all (compared to the hard to miss articles that anyone frequenting the sites in question couldn't miss if they tried).

The joke, however, was based on the notion that a man sleeping with a man is somehow shameful--also, there's a strong implication that the person Firedorn (the guy who ran off a cliff) slept with was either sufficiently androgynous that he thought he was sleeping with a woman, or because the person was indeed transgendered.

Either way, I could see someone feeling insulted over the implied assertion that either a) sleeping with a transgendered person is shameful or b) a man sleeping with another man is shameful. You're right in that the Pillars joke is less facially insulting than, say, articles that directly state that 'gamers' are close-minded boy's clubs and are throwbacks, but the insult is still there.

Edit: @SexualHarassmentPanda: You are entirely correct! Sorry about that.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Pillars of Eternity, on the other hand, had a joke that arguably didn't even reference a transgendered person that didn't paint anyone except a straight man who happened to be full of himself in any negative light, and for those playing the game could be easily ignored, assuming they ever found it at all (compared to the hard to miss articles that anyone frequenting the sites in question couldn't miss if they tried).

The joke, however, was based on the notion that a man sleeping with a man is somehow shameful--also, there's a strong implication that the person Firedorn (the guy who ran off a cliff) slept with was either sufficiently androgynous that he thought he was sleeping with a woman, or because the person was indeed transgendered.

Either way, I could see someone feeling insulted over the implied assertion that either a) sleeping with a transgendered person is shameful or b) a man sleeping with another man is shameful. You're right in that the Pillars joke is less facially insulting than, say, articles that directly state that 'gamers' are close-minded boy's clubs and are throwbacks, but the insult is still there.

I didn't say these things that you're refuting. I've botched the quoting many times too, it happens. You might want to make sure the person who said those things knows that you've replied though, if you want to hear back.

 

[the December King]

The joke, however, was based on the notion that a man sleeping with a man is somehow shameful--also, there's a strong implication that the person Firedorn (the guy who ran off a cliff) slept with was either sufficiently androgynous that he thought he was sleeping with a woman, or because the person was indeed transgendered.

Either way, I could see someone feeling insulted over the implied assertion that either a) sleeping with a transgendered person is shameful or b) a man sleeping with another man is shameful.

Actually, as far as that diddy (poem? I dunno) went, I was under the impression that he threw himself off the cliff because he didn't realize who he was sleeping with. I didn't get the impression it was pushing the idea that it was shameful to sleep with another man, or even a transgendered person, only that it could be shameful for someone if they didn't know enough about the person they were sleeping with, especially if they had made it a priority to be a heterosexual slut (ie: have many sexual partners, within their preferred sex).

If you didn't know beforehand, it could incite feelings of shame, confusion, a sense of feeling duped, etc. But if you knew, and went ahead with it and had a little fun, then there shouldn't be any cause for alarm. I also don't want to imply that anyone seemed to be duplicitous, either, at least not necessarily- it's just that no one thought to ask before hand, apparently!

Not to take away from what you have said, mind you- I can see the perspective you have pointed out as well. Just wanted to offer another point of view.

 

[the_dramatica]

There was a mass exodus on 4chan /v/ near the end of 2014, when moot decided to ban all gamergate discussion.

The funny thing is that currently the Escapist forums contain more shitposting than the boards I frequent.

Then you aren't frequenting facepunch or an imageboard

 

[ForumSafari]

Then you aren't frequenting facepunch or an imageboard

I spend far longer on 4chan than here. I can't speak for other boards but /g/, /lit/ and /tg/ are lighter on shitposting. As is /v/ but I hardly use /v/ anyway.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

Nothing that isn't happening everywhere else on the internet. An element of loud, angry, and ignorant posters got mad at another group of posters that was loud, angry, and ignorant enough to justify and engage with that anger. And the wheels keep on spinning.

The mass exodus from 4chan didn't help matters though.

 

[Eri]

I just assuming the site change according with the times (internet news and social etc) since a few years ago there was no such thing as "gamergate", Mass Effect 3 wasn't made and Anita Sarkeesian was setting up her kickstarter.

In saying so I do know alot of people left during the Extra Credits controversial.

I still don't know what Gamergate is, and at this poin t I'm too afraid to ask.

(I lied, I kinda know, but I don't know which side of the fence is the "stop shagging people for good reviews and lying about it" camp. Pro or anti? Iunno.)

I'm sure someone replied already but in case they didn't- The pro gamergate people are the ones who want people to stop shagging others for reviews and want ethics in journalism. Anti gamergaters want to continue with a lack of ethics because most of them to believe being "impartial" to be impossible so it's okay to be as biased or partial as you want. They also love censoring anyone who disagrees with them.

 

[Amir Kondori]

It is very interesting to read these kinds of threads and realize that we are like one percent of the people who buy and play games that actually care and argue about this kind of gamergate/SJW nonsense.

It really is nonsense too, just politics being brought into gaming now that gaming is a huge medium. Can't escape that shit anywhere anymore.

At the end of the day we are a free society and game developers and games publishers are going to make the games that sell. I think this idea that evil SJW's are going to dramatically change gaming is more than a little overblown and unrealistic.

I do like that the Escapist didn't buy into all this "Gamers are dead" bullshit and have stepped back from the craziness that exists on the other side of the GG "debate", as a lot of the behavior on that side was pretty vitriolic and depressing. It's good to know that I can come to this site and not feel like I am being personally attacked because I like tits. I do like tits, I want some games with cheese and softcore type pandering in them, I also want games like Gone Home that give us a different perspective. What a lot of people don't seem to realize is that there is more than enough room in this industry for both.

 

[Guerilla]

I mean no offense, you're sat here telling me I'm wrong in my experiences on a forum, why? What evidence do you have and why are you telling me it's impossible? Do you know me? Have you followed my posts for the several years I've been here? I'm not offended or anything, but this is an example of being called wrong for silly reasons. Could I be lying? Sure, easily could. It's the internet but I don't really have much reason to lie. I liked the escapist, I think some people are a bit snobby about being on the site but it's mostly far more better than making a post on youtube where you'll certainly be called something stupid for no reason.

Rules be damnedI had someone say something incredibly rude to me, on this forum mind you, because I admitted something personal that he couldn't wrap his brain around. Yeah, he got banned but I still got insulted for being different, on this forum.

I'm telling you you're wrong in your experiences in this forum because I happen to read it for years. It's ironic how you complain about people being passive aggressive and you do the exact thing in the same post. Assholes will always exist and discussions will always get sometimes aggressive, this is how it works in real life too. The point is not to get overly aggressive to the point it ruins the discussion and the topic becomes more about the insults than the actual subject we're supposedly discussing. Other than that though, no, moderators shouldn't create a "safe space" for feminists and SJWs which always translates to censoring opposing views no matter how valid they are.

As for the last paragraph I don't even know what to make of it. So someone offended you and got banned. What would you expect from the mods to do, track his IP address find him in his home and beat the shit out of him?

 

[Exley97_v1legacy]

I just assuming the site change according with the times (internet news and social etc) since a few years ago there was no such thing as "gamergate", Mass Effect 3 wasn't made and Anita Sarkeesian was setting up her kickstarter.

In saying so I do know alot of people left during the Extra Credits controversial.

I still don't know what Gamergate is, and at this poin t I'm too afraid to ask.

(I lied, I kinda know, but I don't know which side of the fence is the "stop shagging people for good reviews and lying about it" camp. Pro or anti? Iunno.)

I'm sure someone replied already but in case they didn't- The pro gamergate people are the ones who want people to stop shagging others for reviews and want ethics in journalism. Anti gamergaters want to continue with a lack of ethics because most of them to believe being "impartial" to be impossible so it's okay to be as biased or partial as you want. They also love censoring anyone who disagrees with them.

The above statements epitomize virtually everything that is wrong with Gamergate. GGers pruport to want "ethics in journalism" yet puts the focus/blame/responsibility squarely on Zoe Quinn for "shagging others for reviews" [she didn't] and not THE ACTUAL JOURNALIST in question [he didn't either, but that's beside the point]. GGers repeatedly claim that the movement isn't about Quinn and that the only people mentioning her are "aGG" but they can't help bringing her back into it all, repeating the same BS claims about sleeping with reporters for positive reviews/coverage again and again. They just can't help themselves, because they've invested so much in hating her over the lst 8-plus months, so they keep harping on what they believe was *abusive behavior* toward her ex-boyfriend [LOL give me a fucking break] or her supposed *history of online harassment* [ditto, what a fucking joke] and slam her efforts with Crash Override or her feminist views on gaming, all of which have FUCK ALL to do with ethics in journalism.

Meanwhile, Nathan Grayson sleeps in his own bed, gets a fraction of the criticism/harassment/abuse that Quinn gets, and takes a back seat to Quinn and other female "LWs" on the Gamergate enemies list, and GGers keep denying this movement has anything to do with gender/feminism/sexism with a straight face and stunning lack of self-awareness. It'd be hilarious if there weren't real people being hurt.

 

[Hagi]

Honestly?

I don't think it's changed beyond something that previously went nameless now suddenly having a name.

It's all cycles. Back when I joined every second topic was about the 'friendzone' and filled with passive agressive arguments about whether or not it existed, about how the majority of women wanted all the benefits of equality but none of the responsibilities, about how the majority of men had turned into pathetic sad losers.

Now we're just coming out of a period where every second topic was about sexism in video games and filled with passive agressive arguments about whether or not it existed, about how the majority of women wanted all the benefits of equality but none of the responsibilities, about how the majority of men had turned into pathetic sad losers.

 

[Popido]

Everyone's just as passively hostile as 5 years ago.

Sure, some are mentally scar'd by big bad 4chan boogieman and seeing reptiles everywhere, but otherwise it's fine.

Also, everyones republican now.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Nothing... actually changed.

GamerGate folks were able to set up shop here, because believe it or not the "rules" of the Escapist are actually pretty tolerable to all discussion... Save for a list of things were explicitly not allowed to talk about. You can basically say whatever you want so long as you don't insult the site staff/other users.

So hence, we're a site that got an influx of GamerGate folks.

And I'm actually glad they got their own forum section because it keeps all that crap segregated from the main site.