How do you feel about games you can completely screw up in?

[aozgolo]

There's a few games out there, mostly RPGs that have moments where if you don't say the right thing, go to the right place, get the right item, or press the X button 5 times in front of a random piece of scenery on your third trip through it but only if you haven't killed any enemies, and don't have THAT guy in your party...

then you can pretty much say goodbye to the "best ending", or at very least the "best weapon" or "extra party member".

There's of course the infamous Mass Effect Suicide Mission, the frustrating Final Fantasy Guide-dang-it equipment that's impossible to know how to get, the head-scratching Suikoden party member collectathon and the list goes on.

So how do you feel about these types of games? Do you like games that punish you for making poor choices? Do you prefer games that don't prevent you from going back and fixing your mistakes? At what point does it become "too ridiculous" with it's forcing you to play "the right way"?

Let me know your opinions!

 

[TehCookie]

I love exploring so I love finding things like that. You should still be able to get a good end without doing it, but I like being rewarding for going that extra mile for searching for those things. Most of the time they're never necessities and just extras. I also see them as old school achievements, if someone had the infinity +1 sword or more characters you know they earned them, and in game goodies are more fun that a blip in the corner.

I don't like being limited to a hallway where you're forced to see everything and every time you play it is the same. If games are interactive I want a different experienced based on how I play.

 

[aozgolo]

I love exploring so I love finding things like that. You should still be able to get a good end without doing it, but I like being rewarding for going that extra mile for searching for those things. Most of the time they're never necessities and just extras. I also see them as old school achievements, if someone had the infinity +1 sword or more characters you know they earned them, and in game goodies are more fun that a blip in the corner.

I don't like being limited to a hallway where you're forced to see everything and every time you play it is the same. If games are interactive I want a different experienced based on how I play.

Very true, games that have different experiences are nice, but if you sink about 100+ hours into a game only to learn that because you didn't tip that beggar 20 quid in hour 5, you can no longer get the best ending the game offers can sometimes feel cheap, now if you can go back and fix that, it's one thing, but many games often have extreme consequences for actions you do or don't do that can make getting the result you want from the game impossible without restarting.

 

[Pink Gregory]

Very true, games that have different experiences are nice, but if you sink about 100+ hours into a game only to learn that because you didn't tip that beggar 20 quid in hour 5, you can no longer get the best ending the game offers can sometimes feel cheap, now if you can go back and fix that, it's one thing, but many games often have extreme consequences for actions you do or don't do that can make getting the result you want from the game impossible without restarting.

Do you have an example?

Putting something like that in a long-form game (though can you count the need for grinding as truly part of a long-form game?) just seems a bit loony.

I have to wonder how much of a reward that the 'best ending' truly is, anyway. But then again that's only applicable if all the endings are well-presented.

 

[Shpongled]

I have no problem with losing out on a special weapon or something because i didn't do something a specific way. That seems perfectly logical to me. And i'd defend the way Mass Effects Suicide Mission set itself up because it was clear, very early on, that a lot of the optional stuff would have an impact on the outcome of the mission. The ship upgrades for example, i see absolutely no reason why all your crew should survive if you didn't bother putting any effort into making everything as secure as possible.

However, i do have a problem with games which you can end up getting yourself into a situation where it is literally impossible for you to progress. Older RPG's are guilty of this, and it's something i'm glad has been done away with for the most part. If you give me options as to where i can put my experience points, you damn-well better make sure those options are fucking viable. I'm looking at you System Shock 2.

I love exploring so I love finding things like that. You should still be able to get a good end without doing it, but I like being rewarding for going that extra mile for searching for those things. Most of the time they're never necessities and just extras. I also see them as old school achievements, if someone had the infinity +1 sword or more characters you know they earned them, and in game goodies are more fun that a blip in the corner.

I don't like being limited to a hallway where you're forced to see everything and every time you play it is the same. If games are interactive I want a different experienced based on how I play.

Very true, games that have different experiences are nice, but if you sink about 100+ hours into a game only to learn that because you didn't tip that beggar 20 quid in hour 5, you can no longer get the best ending the game offers can sometimes feel cheap, now if you can go back and fix that, it's one thing, but many games often have extreme consequences for actions you do or don't do that can make getting the result you want from the game impossible without restarting.

If you want the "best ending" so much then you should have looked at a guide before you started and played accordingly. There is absolutely no logical reason why every different type of ending should be available to you regardless of your actions throughout the entire game.

 

[tippy2k2]

A large part of this question determines what type of game it is.

For example:
I've had everyone die a miserable and horrible death, forcing me to restart dozens of hours in XCOM. I'm perfectly fine with that as the game is designed to be that way and gives the minimal story a real risk for the squad. I also thought that Mass Effect's "Suicide Mission" was freaking awesome since a large part of that game is choice and consequence.

However, I was incredibly disappointed that I didn't get to finish "Lost Odyssey" (an absolutely excellent JRPG for the 360; if you like JRPG's and let this one slip by you, don't). I got to the very end of the game and got myself JRPG'ed: The "Once you pass this point you can't leave" spot. I had been fine in my fights since then so I continued on and I got stopped cold. Ultimately, I had to stop playing one of the best JRPG's of this generation because of it.

So...it's not a sexy answer but I guess I'm answering it depends

If it's just missing out on some super item, I'm fine with it. If it involves me having to stop playing the game, it makes me ever so sad (except XCOM; no clue why that game gets a pass to me but it does).

 

[TehCookie]

I love exploring so I love finding things like that. You should still be able to get a good end without doing it, but I like being rewarding for going that extra mile for searching for those things. Most of the time they're never necessities and just extras. I also see them as old school achievements, if someone had the infinity +1 sword or more characters you know they earned them, and in game goodies are more fun that a blip in the corner.

I don't like being limited to a hallway where you're forced to see everything and every time you play it is the same. If games are interactive I want a different experienced based on how I play.

Very true, games that have different experiences are nice, but if you sink about 100+ hours into a game only to learn that because you didn't tip that beggar 20 quid in hour 5, you can no longer get the best ending the game offers can sometimes feel cheap, now if you can go back and fix that, it's one thing, but many games often have extreme consequences for actions you do or don't do that can make getting the result you want from the game impossible without restarting.

You only messed up if you think you did. I replay games a lot (and my backlog hates me for it) so I like doing a blind run the first time I play a game and I'm not aiming for a specific result, I'm seeing how much I can get by myself. When I want a specific result I use a guide the second time. As much as I love exploring I don't feel the need to get 100% either if it's frustrating or stops being fun.

There's always the staggered saves as well so you can go back to the part you missed without having to play through the entire game. Sometime I'll do contained sidequests like that if it's only purpose is expanding on the story, or if I want to ace a minigame, but am tired with it and want to continue on with the story.

 

[MysticSlayer]

There's of course the infamous Mass Effect Suicide Mission

Infamous? I thought that was a generally loved ending, even if you were likely to have one or more squad mates die, possibly even leading to Shepard's death.

Anyways, I don't mind the idea that you can completely screw yourself out of something so long as the developers at least give hints on how to prevent it. That's one reason Mass Effect 2's suicide mission was so well done. They let you know that you needed to get everyone mentally prepared for possibly facing their end and that you needed to be in constant communication with your squad. Anyone who doesn't realize the implication that you need to talk to your squad, accept missions from them (which they always tell you when a mission is being offered even before you talk to them), and buy ship upgrades has no right to complain as the game made it very clear what you needed to do.

On the other hand, you have games like the Tales games. Don't get me wrong, I love the Tales games, but many of the side quests, some of which are necessary to get a hidden boss, are only introduced through a very vague cutscene that doesn't give any indication of how to progress that side quest, and if you don't figure it out before a certain time (sometimes in less than an hour), you are likely to miss a key arte, weapon, item, etc. that is either beneficial or necessary to have in order to receive all the content. The biggest problem is they don't even bother to give an indication of when the cut off is, so you might continue the story hoping it comes up later only for it never to come up, but even after the cut off you don't know that you just lost access to a side quest, causing you to have learned nothing for the next play through. Ultimately, even after a single play through, you are likely to need an online guide to help you complete most of them, as they game itself refuses to give enough indication for later. Granted, the most ridiculously vague of these are generally not necessary to unlock anything hidden, but the game should still give more of a hint than just, "Oh yeah, a side quest has started. You might want to look up an online guide right about now."

Ultimately, it just comes down to the execution. Being screwed up and missing out on content during a first play through is fine so long as you had enough knowledge to reasonably not miss out on anything, and even if you did, you should be able to fix that during later play throughs without an online guide. Not having that reasonable amount of knowledge, however, is when there's a problem with the game, not with the player.

 

[josemlopes]

But you are not supposed to get the "good ending" by default, you are supposed to get the ending that represents your actions, if I get the bad ending it doesnt mean that I failed, it means that according to what I did that is how the story ended and not all stories need to end on a positive note (especially RPGs where players can influence the outcome, let the endings be as varied as they can be, vague or conclusive, positive and negative, serious or retarded, let it adjust to what the player has been doing).

I mean, wasnt that the point of Mass Effect? To have a long story that would react to your actions? If you go after the "good ending" then its the player that is reacting to the game and forcing himself to do things that he wouldnt do.

 

[BQE]

Persona 4 and Agarest leap to mind.

Unlocking Cloud Strife in Final Fantasy Tactics was quite an endeavor, even with a guide.

 

[CloudAtlas]

But you are not supposed to get the "good ending" by default, you are supposed to get the ending that represents your actions, if I get the bad ending it doesnt mean that I failed, it means that according to what I did that is how the story ended and not all stories need to end on a positive note (especially RPGs where players can influence the outcome, let the endings be as varied as they can be, vague or conclusive, positive and negative, serious or retarded, let it adjust to what the player has been doing).

I mean, wasnt that the point of Mass Effect? To have a long story that would react to your actions? If you go after the "good ending" then its the player that is reacting to the game and forcing himself to do things that he wouldnt do.

My thoughts exactly. If you act in a way that you actually don't want to just because you don't like the outcome of your actions, you have it all backwards in my opinion. And you shouldn't always be able to know the consequences of your actions at the time you make the decision either, and sometimes apparently good deeds have bad consequences too. That doesn't resolve the game designers from their responsibility, of course: you shouldn't make "good" outcomes (whether those are "good" endings, access to some powerful item or whatever) dependent on some arbitrary conditions that don't really make sense.

 

[Savagezion]

Alpha Protocol. Oh wait, I need more content in my post. More games need to look at Alpha Protocol and see that the idea of choosing "right and wrong" in a game with choice defeats the purpose of choice. Because choosing wrong is an invalid choice and choosing right is the best/only choice to be made. If you want your players to choose a specific chocie, why give them any say in the matter at all other than to punish them for choosing wrong. The best way is to make all choices viable and only really effect how the NPCs and world reacts to the story the player is guiding. To many games throw the choices "I wish to be praised" and "I wish to be punished" at the player. That's ok if you are making a dominatrix game. But otherwise, it makes no sense.

 

[Username Redacted]

I am OK with games like this as long as it's kind of clear what and when the choices are. It's been a while but I recall Legend of Dragoon (PS1 JRPG; which should tell you how long I hold a grudge against a game) allowing me into the final area without, as far as I remember, telling me that I wouldn't be allowed to leave this area. It also took me a while to realize that I was horribly under-leveled and thus didn't finish the game.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

I'm fine with it. If my actions lead to an ending that wasn't ideal, that's because my actions didn't lead to an ending that was ideal. I rolled the dice and that's how they fell. It allows a game to have a different experience every time. The ideal path isn't the only path.

 

[FrozenLaughs]

I enjoy it typically. But it depends on the situation. The no hand holding of Xcom is refreshing in a way, it keeps you on your toes in every encounter. For most RPGs its fun to learn all the ins and outs of rare weapons and bosses etc.

As many have said tho, its usually the "can't go back" stuff that you learn about too late. Most long term jRPGs I play I do everything I can possibly do, but only once. I won't be investing another 200hrs of gameplay and research on a subsequent playthrough, no matter how good it was.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

But you are not supposed to get the "good ending" by default, you are supposed to get the ending that represents your actions, if I get the bad ending it doesnt mean that I failed, it means that according to what I did that is how the story ended and not all stories need to end on a positive note (especially RPGs where players can influence the outcome, let the endings be as varied as they can be, vague or conclusive, positive and negative, serious or retarded, let it adjust to what the player has been doing).

I mean, wasnt that the point of Mass Effect? To have a long story that would react to your actions? If you go after the "good ending" then its the player that is reacting to the game and forcing himself to do things that he wouldnt do.

Pretty much this.

I usually don't go for the "best ending" in most games because the game forces me to play in a way that's completely out of character and usually uninteresting for me. When you have different endings that are each the culmination of showing you what your actions (good or bad) did to the game world/your party/your character, etc then you shouldn't complain that you got the ending that you did based on your decision making. If you really want the good ending then figure out what the game wants you to do and do it, don't expect the game to give you the best ending regardless of how you played it.

 

[DementedSheep]

I don't like games that don't inform you (or make it fairly obvious with what is happening) of no going back points and where levels change over especially if it's game you can't manually save in. Though that's not because of the ending, its because it makes me miss content.

Otherwise no not really. On your fist play through you're not suppose to find everything, you don't need all the hidden weapons (which are usually OP anyway) and it's fun to try and find these things on your own. I've never been in a situation where missing something has given me a no win situation.

I think people obsess to much over the "best ending" and shouldn't consider a less sunshine and roses ending failure. Hell I've actually gotten a good ending when I thought the bad one would have been more appropriate before. The ending should ideally make sense in the context of your actions. I don't know what you mean with suicide mission. It dose have the no going back point without telling you unfortunately (I think, it's been a while) but the steps taken to keep everyone alive make sense to me. Upgrade your ship and send the squad mates with the necessary skills and in best head-space to do the job.

However I don't like it when it takes control off you with character you have been playing and making choices for through out the rest of game to make them do something bad at the end based on morality points. Having outside factors give you a different ending is fine. Although Metro 2033, which dose have "tip the beggar" type requirements for the good ending kinda gets a pass with that since the normal ending is the book ending and the "good ending" is meant to be a secret hard to get bonus ending which is non canon.

 

[FPLOON]

I can only think of one game where you could technically "screw you over", in terms of getting 100%... and that's Kingdom Hearts Final Mix...

The first thing that can "screw you over" is if you have Monstro appear next to Atlantica, as I learned from a fellow Escapist... Apparently, there's a mission that makes you go from Atlantica to the warp portal that leads to Olympic Coliseum or Deep Jungle and the ONLY thing that can stop you is if Monstro decides to spawn in the middle of your run to swallow your gummi ship... which he seems to do about "50%" of the time... So, yeah you kinda HAVE to make Monstro spawn next to Halloween Town for a better change of completing every Gummi Ship mission...

The second thing (which doesn't screw you up TOO much even if you don't do this beforehand) is choosing the Staff for the extra MP... It not only powers up your magic and summoning on Proud mode, but also makes getting synthesizing items such as Power Stones and Serenity Powers easier to try to farm for when you're trying to spam magic such as Stop or Aero... Of course it can be fixed with the right equipment, but it's something that could make getting some of the new synthesizing items more harder to get...

Edit: I also had a BIG problem with getting 100% in Kingdom Hearts 2 (not Final Mix, at the time) and Birth By Sleep (but that was more of the overall 100% than getting the secret ending itself), but then I "fixed" that problem by always playing those games on Proud mode... (I REALLY did not like "collecting" synthesizing material in Kingdom Hearts 2... especially after the game's "half-way" mark...)

Other than that, I've had NO PROBLEMS with the multiple/"secret" endings from games such as Radiant Historia, Catherine, or Hyperdimention Neptunia mk2... (Though the last game, to me, didn't really feel like it needed those "extra" endings in the first place... But, whatever...)