How do you feel about games you can completely screw up in?

[WhiteFangofWhoa]

Used to be, but I'm no longer a 100% completionist. I just go for whatever side quests/items are available without a guide, and maybe check if there's a way to get a better ending than what I got afterwards if I liked the game.

What I don't like so much is if where if you didn't do one of those obtuse things the OP talked about, you will eventually get into a situation or boss fight that you can't win... and you will have no idea that you missed something crucial to your success until you check a FAQ. Having points of no return without recovery stations can result in this in various RPGs, and I heard Sierra's old adventure games like Space Quest did this a lot too.

I've only played one game recently with enough guide-exclusive content to really aggravate me, and that's Final Fantasy XII. Not just the infamous Zodiac Spear- half the Espers require a guide to find, and the same for over half the hunting quests. Marilith requires you to wait in a particular spot without moving for half an hour, without any clue given as to where or how long to wait.

 

[Qvar]

Jet Force Gemini. I didn't know that you ONLY will play the final boss battle with Juno, so I never cared about who took the ammo increase packs. Sad, sad mistake, I went to the final battle without enough ammo to beat it. What a piece of crap, after recovering all those tribals.

Also, LoZ Minish cap, when you miss the opportunity to get the golden arrows/bow/whatever because you didn't talk to that random guy AFTER doing this but BEFORE doing that. Eugh.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

I think that only turn-based strategies qualify. Like Civilization V. Sometimes you can screw up without realizing for more than 20 turns. And then when it all comes crashing down you realize your early mistake and it can rarely be remedied at that point.

 

[StriderShinryu]

I love the idea of actually being able to miss things or screw things up.. as long as there's a logic to it. Let me know what I might be missing or what the options are in advance, or just have a clearly logical chain of events (don't save Bob's village from getting destroyed, Bob won't/can't join you), and I have no issues. Make it so silly/stupid/hidden that there's no way that you would even know it's there without some sort of guide and it becomes a problem pretty quickly.

 

[elvor0]

then you can pretty much say goodbye to the "best ending", or at very least the "best weapon" or "extra party member".

There's of course the infamous Mass Effect Suicide Mission,

I thought every one loved that? It seemed pretty clear from the outset that it was necessary to be prepared for it. It was a /suicide/ mission after all. I was alright and everyone survived because of my OCD to do everything available, but I liked the fact that it was possible that everyone could and would die if you didn't prepare properly. I even thought I'd screwed up in Mass Effect 3 when you run for the beam given the stakes in the Suicide Mission from 2. I was standing up and shouting at Shepard to get up, because I genuinely thought she'd bitten the bullet.

FF12 suffers from Guide Dang it though, five random chests you're not supposed to open with no indication that this is the case for the best weapon in the game? Fuck off! No true gamer doesn't open chests or take loot, what the hell was that?

 

[Woiminkle]

It very much depends on the game and how it's done as to whether I like it or not. For example I love that in Deus Ex HR you are penalised for not getting a move on to head into the first mission because it does prompt you that time is critical so you have a fair chance.

Again with Mass Effect I feel like it was fairly and clearly explained that in order to do your best you needed ship and crew to be fully prepared. In fairness even if it wasn't a requirement I'm still the kind to make sure I've done everything I can before heading to any final level or boss anyway.

I hate it in RPGs that say the skill trees mean you can customise your play style to suit your preferences when 40+ hrs in it turns out that your character you thought was going great early on is now unplayably weak in the latter stages. I hear that path of exile suffers from this can anyone confirm or debunk this for me?

And as for "Guide Dang it" that pretty much sums up my experience with Final Fantasy games, and one of the reasons I absolutely loathe that franchise. Yet I get the impression that a significant portion of the die hard fanbase would actually rage if anyone attempted to remove that kind of bs from the series.
I mean is it so hard to put some clues in the actual game? Seems like a way of shifting expensive official guides to my cynical distrustful mind.

 

[FrozenLaughs]

I've never played a Final Fantasy (any SE game, really) that there was a point you couldn't beat. There are certainly spots where you permanently miss things. Lots of weapons and gear. The occasional summons. A character once in a while. Even the occasional optional boss.

I've never, ever hit a spot where progress was halted because I had missed any of the optionals. Hindered, maybe, but never halted.

 

[FrozenLaughs]

It very much depends on the game and how it's done as to whether I like it or not. For example I love that in Deus Ex HR you are penalised for not getting a move on to head into the first mission because it does prompt you that time is critical so you have a fair chance.

Again with Mass Effect I feel like it was fairly and clearly explained that in order to do your best you needed ship and crew to be fully prepared. In fairness even if it wasn't a requirement I'm still the kind to make sure I've done everything I can before heading to any final level or boss anyway.
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And as for "Guide Dang it" that pretty much sums up my experience with Final Fantasy games, and one of the reasons I absolutely loathe that franchise. Yet I get the impression that a significant portion of the die hard fanbase would actually rage if anyone attempted to remove that kind of bs from the series.
I mean is it so hard to put some clues in the actual game? Seems like a way of shifting expensive official guides to my cynical distrustful mind.

Well yes, most of the Final Fantasies reward you for going back and re-exploring past area and talking to people again. Most of them also *don't* tell you to go back. Or track what you are doing. Old school players usually enjoy that to some extent. Being rewarded for stepping off the path and exploring.

Mass Effect, in contrast, has steadily degraded in each consecutive game, restricting your exploration, tracking more and more things and holding your hand to make sure you found it all. The "suicide" mission was laughable at best. Even on the highest setting everyone survived all my playthroughs, by simply doing everything the game held my hand and guided me into doing.

 

[Woiminkle]

It very much depends on the game and how it's done as to whether I like it or not. For example I love that in Deus Ex HR you are penalised for not getting a move on to head into the first mission because it does prompt you that time is critical so you have a fair chance.

Again with Mass Effect I feel like it was fairly and clearly explained that in order to do your best you needed ship and crew to be fully prepared. In fairness even if it wasn't a requirement I'm still the kind to make sure I've done everything I can before heading to any final level or boss anyway.
........................................................................

And as for "Guide Dang it" that pretty much sums up my experience with Final Fantasy games, and one of the reasons I absolutely loathe that franchise. Yet I get the impression that a significant portion of the die hard fanbase would actually rage if anyone attempted to remove that kind of bs from the series.
I mean is it so hard to put some clues in the actual game? Seems like a way of shifting expensive official guides to my cynical distrustful mind.

Well yes, most of the Final Fantasies reward you for going back and re-exploring past area and talking to people again. Most of them also *don't* tell you to go back. Or track what you are doing. Old school players usually enjoy that to some extent. Being rewarded for stepping off the path and exploring.

Mass Effect, in contrast, has steadily degraded in each consecutive game, restricting your exploration, tracking more and more things and holding your hand to make sure you found it all. The "suicide" mission was laughable at best. Even on the highest setting everyone survived all my playthroughs, by simply doing everything the game held my hand and guided me into doing.

I see what you're attempting to indirectly say here, and I won't rise to it. If something is discoverable in game then that's fine by me, but don't try to pretend that everything in Final Fantasy games is discoverable just by going back and exploring more, that simply isn't true. Go look at Guide Dang it Final Fantasy for a whole list of stuff that is only obtained by following precise steps that are never even hinted at and a lot of the time make no sense. Seriously go look for yourself.

I'll totally agree on Mass Effect being hand holding though which is why I was surprised to see it referred to as "infamous".

 

[FrozenLaughs]

I see what you're attempting to indirectly say here, and I won't rise to it. If something is discoverable in game then that's fine by me, but don't try to pretend that everything in Final Fantasy games is discoverable just by going back and exploring more, that simply isn't true. Go look at Guide Dang it Final Fantasy for a whole list of stuff that is only obtained by following precise steps that are never even hinted at and a lot of the time make no sense. Seriously go look for yourself.

Um? I'm not indirectly saying anything, I honestly don't know what you mean.

As for your list from TVTropes, I read it. 90% of the things on that list don't apply to this subject. Nothing listed effects your ability to complete the core games. Nothing.

The original topic is "games you can completely screw up in."

Not finding Excalibur =/= completely screwed.
Not getting a costume =/= completely screwed.
Not getting a character =/= completely screwed.
Not getting perfect 100% =/=completely screwed.

*edit*
I should amend: I meant that 90% of that list is extra "bonus" stuff not normally found in a typical first playthrough. Most are rewards for fans who play multiple times. Most came around as did the Internet, companies knowing that their fanbase was gaining access to unprecedented access to information and the ability to share it.

Only a handful are truly examples of "miss it and you're screwed" like the Zodiac Spear in 12.

 

[The Wykydtron]

I have a soft spot for permadeath now. Not sure why since I WILL restart missions to stop people from dying. Seriously, I had to restart Chapter 9 of Fire Emblem Awakening countless times because Cordelia selfishly gets instakilled halfway through and she looks cool so she must not die.

At points I will allow acceptable casualty rates (bye Kellam, you can tank these guys for a turn because I seriously stopped caring about your wellbeing) but the fun of these games is how hype it is when characters pull through tight situations. Like the time Lon'qu dodged 4 50%+ hit chance attacks in a row, any of which would have killed him and got a crit on two of his counterattacks.

 

[Woiminkle]

Um? I'm not indirectly saying anything, I honestly don't know what you mean.

As for your list from TVTropes, I read it. 90% of the things on that list don't apply to this subject. Nothing listed effects your ability to complete the core games. Nothing.

The original topic is "games you can completely screw up in."

Not finding Excalibur =/= completely screwed.
Not getting a costume =/= completely screwed.
Not getting a character =/= completely screwed.
Not getting perfect 100% =/=completely screwed.

*edit*
I should amend: I meant that 90% of that list is extra "bonus" stuff not normally found in a typical first playthrough. Most are rewards for fans who play multiple times. Most came around as did the Internet, companies knowing that their fanbase was gaining access to unprecedented access to information and the ability to share it.

Only a handful are truly examples of "miss it and you're screwed" like the Zodiac Spear in 12.

Yeah I did wander slightly off topic Guide Dang it being a pet peeve of mine. Personally I find 1 or 2 examples of it in any game to be too many but that's just my subjective opinion. Oh and I didn't personally write that list btw, so it's not mine.
And sorry, I will give you the benefit of the doubt because tone is quite difficult to judge sometimes but it did seem to me at the time that you were being slightly passive aggressive and condescending. So forgive me if I judged you harshly but it seemed to me that you were trying to insult by implication.
I still don't enjoy FF. I'm not bashing it, I'm not suggesting others shouldn't like it it or that those who do are somehow inferior. Just not for me anymore. Can we just leave it at that?

 

[XMark]

There must be mostly younger people posting in this thread since hardly anyone has mentioned Sierra. The early days of PC adventure gaming were absolutely loaded with games in which you could unknowingly make winning the game completely impossible for yourself by doing something that seemed completely innocuous and gave absolutely zero indication that you just borked your game. King's Quest V was particularly evil about this.

 

[Nielas]

There must be mostly younger people posting in this thread since hardly anyone has mentioned Sierra. The early days of PC adventure gaming were absolutely loaded with games in which you could unknowingly make winning the game completely impossible for yourself by doing something that seemed completely innocuous and gave absolutely zero indication that you just borked your game. King's Quest V was particularly evil about this.

You mean the yeti and the pie? or throwing the boot at the cat?

I believe I lucked out on those on my first play through. I did have to use a hint book to get through some of the other parts that in retrospect were really hard but logically doable.

Space Quest games were horrible on some of the stuff that you had to know ahead of time or you were screwed. The jetpack thing was evil.

 

[Vern5]

I don't mind it when games smack me for making bad decisions as long as that punishment isn't an automatic Game Over. I don't mind being debilitated for making the wrong choice or losing a powerful advantage because I wasn't paying attention. Knowing that I can screw up makes me feel like my choices actually matter.

However, if there is one thing I cannot abide, then it is being punished by random chance. A bad roll of the dice or a fickle hand dealt by the RNG is bullshit if it means I have to start the game over. I'm looking at you XCOM!

 

[Raikas]

There's of course the infamous Mass Effect Suicide Mission,

I don't think ME2 is a great example of punishment. You can still "win" if you get your entire crew killed and I actually thought that some parts of ME3(especially the Citadel DLC) were actually more interesting/entertaining if you'd gotten certain characters killed - that element of the series was fantastic, I thought.

There must be mostly younger people posting in this thread since hardly anyone has mentioned Sierra. The early days of PC adventure gaming were absolutely loaded with games in which you could unknowingly make winning the game completely impossible for yourself by doing something that seemed completely innocuous and gave absolutely zero indication that you just borked your game. King's Quest V was particularly evil about this.

Heh, I was going to mention the early KQ games and contrast them with Rise of the Dragon (which I think was developed by someone else before Sierra released it, but still) - Rise of the Dragon made it easy to get into an unwinnable situation (like pissing off the girlfriend) but it was early in the game and didn't take long to figure out. That one did it right in my mind.

 

[Mech__Warrior]

I saw a discussion on Final Fantasy games in here and I want to say in 1, 2, 4, 5, and 6, backtracking to get better items wasn't how you could easily screw up...What ended up screwing me was usually being underlevelled and not being able to go back. You could go without several of the characters or spells you pick up and still complete the game, but it usually leaves that decision up to you.

As for a game you could completely screw up in, I'm trying to think of one....I know in Chrono Trigger that you end up fighting the final boss about halfway through the game and if you lose, you get a bad ending, however the game doesn't end there. You still have new game+, which allows you to continue the game and prepare for the battle again.

Though, I think Ogre Battle 64 might be a good example. If you just go around, capturing cities and killing entire enemy squads, you get a low Chaos Frame and therefore get a shitty ending. However, if you liberate those cities, continually keep yourself underleveled and don't destroy entire enemy units, you get the best ending out of them all and the best armor. Even trying your best to keep that Chaos Frame high could be completely ruined if you let a character die or if they don't join your party. Ridiculous. Though, I think it ties into the theme of the game where you're leading a revolution, not trying to be a massive military force.

 

[Sarah Kerrigan]

I actually just felt this an hour ago. I started playing Papers Please and the entire time I felt like I was having a panic attack, always shooting my gaze towards the bottom of the screen, scared I messed up or let someone in that was not supposed to be.

 

[x EvilErmine x]

There's of course the infamous Mass Effect Suicide Mission,

I don't think ME2 is a great example of punishment. You can still "win" if you get your entire crew killed and I actually thought that some parts of ME3(especially the Citadel DLC) were actually more interesting/entertaining if you'd gotten certain characters killed - that element of the series was fantastic, I thought.

There must be mostly younger people posting in this thread since hardly anyone has mentioned Sierra. The early days of PC adventure gaming were absolutely loaded with games in which you could unknowingly make winning the game completely impossible for yourself by doing something that seemed completely innocuous and gave absolutely zero indication that you just borked your game. King's Quest V was particularly evil about this.

Heh, I was going to mention the early KQ games and contrast them with Rise of the Dragon (which I think was developed by someone else before Sierra released it, but still) - Rise of the Dragon made it easy to get into an unwinnable situation (like pissing off the girlfriend) but it was early in the game and didn't take long to figure out. That one did it right in my mind.

Ever played the text based hitchhikers guide to the galaxy game? linky link is here [http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/hitchhikers/game_nolan.shtml]

Spoiler

If you don't pick up the junk mail near the start you eventually get to a puzzle where it's impossible to progress without it. Oh an the game gives you no clues at all that it's going to be critical later.